“The Romans Road†has a disastrous fork in the road!

[George Muller]

Basically Paul is saying NO MAN can work good apart from the Spirit of God, working what is good through them.

George, what makes you think that anyone is saying that men are working good apart from the Spirit of God? Who has suggested this?

Why are you blowing things out of proportion? No one can do good without Christ. Is that too difficult to understand?

Regards

Well what makes you think they have? post me the quote where anyone makes this point on this thread? If Paul had to warn and remind us of this truth throughout his epistles, are believers not to remind each other any time the subject of works and righteousness are being discussed?

 

[francisdesales]

Basically Paul is saying NO MAN can work good apart from the Spirit of God, working what is good through them.

George, what makes you think that anyone is saying that men are working good apart from the Spirit of God? Who has suggested this?

Why are you blowing things out of proportion? No one can do good without Christ. Is that too difficult to understand?

Regards

Well what makes you think they have? post me the quote where anyone makes this point on this thread? If Paul had to warn and remind us of this truth throughout his epistles, are believers not to remind each other any time the subject of works and righteousness are being discussed?

Isn't your post #58 making that assumption, that people are teaching "works righteousness" apart from God? You begin with your "disgust" at how people could teach such a thing, cite several long passages of Scriptures, then end again with this red herring - that non-OSAS preach works salvation...

No one is stating that one is saved by their own works, George. No one can even say "Jesus is Lord" without the Spirit of God. We know this.

Furthermore, Paul is not "reminding us". He was speaking to Jews who wanted to make Gentile Christians become Jews. Paul is stating that performing Jewish works of the Law cannot save, so why bother becoming circumcised? And IF THAT led to salvation, why were the Jews STILL doing evil, not doing the Law (as he relates in Romans 2-3)? The Law didn't make the Jews any better then Gentiles, so having the Law didn't make one righteous.

There just are not very many Christians around who are saying that one must perform works of the Law (become Jewish) to be saved, George. Nor are there very many Christians who state that one can be a good, loving Christian without the Spirit of God. This is why I refer to such statements as a red herring.

Have you read my signature, George???

Regards

 

[George Muller]

Isn't your post #58 making that assumption, that people are teaching "works righteousness"? You begin with your "disgust" at how people could teach such a thing, cite several long passages of Scriptures, then end again with this red herring - that non-OSAS preach works salvation...

Well, its not really honest to act as if this is not the issue at hand? Of course the OP of this thread is trying to promote works and spirit of bondage. Seeing your doctrines grant a faithless salvation to muslims, I doubt you would now suggest that believers are now under a standard you do not apply to muslims?

 

[francisdesales]

Isn't your post #58 making that assumption, that people are teaching "works righteousness"? You begin with your "disgust" at how people could teach such a thing, cite several long passages of Scriptures, then end again with this red herring - that non-OSAS preach works salvation...

Well, its not really honest to act as if this is not the issue at hand? Of course the OP of this thread is trying to promote works and spirit of bondage. Seeing your doctrines grant a faithless salvation to muslims, I doubt you would now suggest that believers are now under a standard you do not apply to muslims?

I am just asking you, who is claiming that people can enter heaven based upon their own actions without God?

Who?

Even in our discussions about the Muslim who may enter the Kingdom without his knowledge of Christ, I was careful to state that this was a result of the Spirit of God, not the Muslim's inherent 'goodness'.

Again, George, no one here thinks we can do good without God's Spirit. Your concerns are unfounded.

To be honest, I do not know what the intent of the OP is, "the fork in Romans"??

Regards

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Seeing your doctrines grant a faithless salvation to muslims...

Chiming in with my 30 seconds of free time every morning...

I can't read everything here, but I'm confident Francis is saying their's IS a salvation by faith...just faith in what they do know, not what they don't know and so many others in the world do know about.

The problem comes down to this misguided separation between faith and works in the church today. Any mention of works always gets heard as 'works salvation', not knowing works is the necessary and required outcome and response to faith, just as getting wet is the necessary and required outcome of going swimming. And until you show up wet someday we have no evidence to make us think the person who says they went swimming actually did.

Work is what you do when you believe. But the church instantly hears that as 'trying to be justified by your works'.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

To be honest, I do not know what the intent of the OP is, "the fork in Romans"??

Regards

Perhaps it's where 'faith', and 'work' go their separate ways(?)

...to the destruction of the one who let's that happen.

 

[francisdesales]

Seeing your doctrines grant a faithless salvation to muslims...

Chiming in with my 30 seconds of free time every morning...

I can't read everything here, but I'm confident Francis is saying their's IS a salvation by faith...just faith in what they do know, not what they don't know and so many others in the world do know about.

The problem comes down to this misguided separation between faith and works in the church today. Any mention of works always gets heard as 'works salvation', not knowing works is the necessary and required outcome and response to faith, just as getting wet is the necessary and required outcome of going swimming. And until you show up wet someday we have no evidence to make us think the person who says they went swimming actually did.

Work is what you do when you believe. But the church instantly hears that as 'trying to be justified by your works'.

Yes, that is a fair summation.

One cannot please God without faith. If God is merciful and just, we believe that God will take into account one's knowledge and weigh that with their faith in what they know about God and how that plays out in their life, since a faith without works is dead and cannot save.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

To be honest, I do not know what the intent of the OP is, "the fork in Romans"??

Regards

Perhaps it's where 'faith', and 'work' go their separate ways(?)

...to the destruction of the one who let's that happen.

Perhaps. If that is the case, someone has missed the point of Romans, since it really is not "faith v works" literature. It would be more correct to say it was an argument against becoming Jewish to be saved, since having the Law didn't help the Jews obey it. It is the Spirit of God that enables us to do works of the Spirit - to follow the Law.

Regards

 

[smaller]

It is the Spirit of God that enables us to do works of the Spirit - to follow the Law.

Have you considered being a Messianic christian? That's exactly what they say too.

 

[smaller]

Well, its not really honest to act as if this is not the issue at hand? Of course the OP of this thread is trying to promote works and spirit of bondage. Seeing your doctrines grant a faithless salvation to muslims, I doubt you would now suggest that believers are now under a standard you do not apply to muslims?

Actually George some 'sects' are much harsher toward believers than they are to the unsaved.

The 'unsaved' to them present opportunities to add to their denomination while believers who are of a different denomination are too far gone into heresies and not as likely to be proselytized.

s

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It is the Spirit of God that enables us to do works of the Spirit - to follow the Law.

Have you considered being a Messianic christian? That's exactly what they say too.

We were given the Spirit to uphold the requirements of the law, not discard them.

31 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant..."
33 “I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts."
(Jeremiah 31:31, 33 NIV)

"26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. " (Ezekiel 36: NIV)

"31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law." (Romans 3:31 NIV)


The Spirit does in us what mere written words could not...he moves us to uphold the requirements of God. Something the old way of mere written words, the way of the old covenant, could not do.

Anyone who can not uphold the requirements of the law though the faith they claim they have is the one whose proclamation of faith can not save them.

"The only thing that counts if faith expressing itself through love." (Galatians 5:6b NIV)

But there are many who think the 'faith' that results in no change of nature counts toward justification, too. No. What counts is the faith that can be seen by the change of character it has wrought in a person. The faith that can't do that is the faith that can not save. Of course, this will continue to be heard as a 'works salvation' doctrine by many. It's a very difficult indoctrination to overcome in the church today.

Saving faith is recognized by what it does, not what it says. If you can't show what you believe by what you do, you have a 'faith' that can not save. Or was James lying?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

To be honest, I do not know what the intent of the OP is, "the fork in Romans"??

Regards

Perhaps it's where 'faith', and 'work' go their separate ways(?)

...to the destruction of the one who let's that happen.

Perhaps. If that is the case, someone has missed the point of Romans, since it really is not "faith v works" literature. It would be more correct to say it was an argument against becoming Jewish to be saved, since having the Law didn't help the Jews obey it.

And which is seen among us gentiles as the belief that mere possession and acceptance of the knowledge of Jesus and the gospel is enough to be saved, with no corresponding action or consequence of that acceptance being necessary.

We're just as guilty as the Jews, but in accordance to trusting in our own knowledge of God and salvation. Guilty because what we trust in has not led to obedience either.

 

[francisdesales]

It is the Spirit of God that enables us to do works of the Spirit - to follow the Law.

Have you considered being a Messianic christian? That's exactly what they say too.

As usual, you are not representing what I believe, or what I said...

 

[francisdesales]

To be honest, I do not know what the intent of the OP is, "the fork in Romans"??

Regards

Perhaps it's where 'faith', and 'work' go their separate ways(?)

...to the destruction of the one who let's that happen.

Perhaps. If that is the case, someone has missed the point of Romans, since it really is not "faith v works" literature. It would be more correct to say it was an argument against becoming Jewish to be saved, since having the Law didn't help the Jews obey it.

And which is seen among us gentiles as the belief that mere possession and acceptance of the knowledge of Jesus and the gospel is enough to be saved, with no corresponding action or consequence of that acceptance being necessary.

We're just as guilty as the Jews, but in accordance to trusting in our own knowledge of God and salvation. Guilty because what we trust in has not led to obedience either.

Exactly. Good points.

 

[John Zain]

To be honest, I do not know what the intent of the OP is, "the fork in Romans"??

I thought everyone knew what "the Romans Road" was all about.
IMO, most believers see it as a long detailed explanation
of the hows and whys of the believer's wonderful blessings.

The right fork goes to a narrow gate and a difficult way, which leads to Heaven.
This refers to walking in the Spirit the right way,
and not trusting in false doctrines such as OSAS.

The wrong fork goes to a wide gate and a broad way, which leads to Hell.
This refers to believing in false doctrines such as OSAS,
and not taking things too seriously.

 

[Maedchen]

Dear John,

Could you please tell me what OSAS means?
I really have never heard about it.

Love, Rose

 

[John Zain]

It is the Spirit of God that enables us to do works of the Spirit - to follow the Law.

Have you considered being a Messianic christian? That's exactly what they say too.

Thou simply do not understand that without the Holy Spirit ...
one is a spiritual moron, understanding very little of God's spiritual truth.

Witness the OT Jews.

BACs have the Spirit of God inside of them ...
so they are able to follow God to God's satisfaction.

If they choose to do this ... and not change their minds, walk away, etc.!

 

[farouk]

In any consideration of Once Saved, Always Saved (and it can be approached from various angles, not all of them sound, if faith is supposedly just mental assent), the most precious promise to born again believers in the Lord Jesus in Romans 8.38-39 can be remembered.

'For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus, our Lord.'

Blessings.

 

[smaller]

It is the Spirit of God that enables us to do works of the Spirit - to follow the Law.

Have you considered being a Messianic christian? That's exactly what they say too.

As usual, you are not representing what I believe, or what I said...

I quoted 'your statement' and said that is also what Messianic christians claim.

Is your claim 'more right' than theirs?

?

 

[smaller]

We were given the Spirit to uphold the requirements of the law, not discard them.

So, you heading to the salvation by law performance camp now JB?

?