“The Romans Road†has a disastrous fork in the road!

[Deborah13]

]"works righteousness"[/B]

Righteous works, done by grace and through faith.

I don't know "works righteousness" that sounds like works that earn righteousness?

Righteousness is a gift. That means it cannot be earned?
Romans 5:17
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Romans 4:5-7

King James Version (KJV)

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Crazy, how can that be! Only through the righteous blood of the Lamb. How can He love us so much. Amazing Grace!

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+5:17-19&version=KJV

 

[George Muller]

Isn't your post #58 making that assumption, that people are teaching "works righteousness"? You begin with your "disgust" at how people could teach such a thing, cite several long passages of Scriptures, then end again with this red herring - that non-OSAS preach works salvation...

Well, its not really honest to act as if this is not the issue at hand? Of course the OP of this thread is trying to promote works and spirit of bondage. Seeing your doctrines grant a faithless salvation to muslims, I doubt you would now suggest that believers are now under a standard you do not apply to muslims?

I am just asking you, who is claiming that people can enter heaven based upon their own actions without God?

Who?

Even in our discussions about the Muslim who may enter the Kingdom without his knowledge of Christ, I was careful to state that this was a result of the Spirit of God, not the Muslim's inherent 'goodness'.

Again, George, no one here thinks we can do good without God's Spirit. Your concerns are unfounded.

To be honest, I do not know what the intent of the OP is, "the fork in Romans"??

Regards

Well please explain your position on how a muslim can obtain the Spirit of God, while they reject Christ?

 

[George Muller]

, but I'm confident Francis is saying their's IS a salvation by faith...just faith in what they do know, not what they don't know and so many others in the world do know about.

So is this the "new gospel" salvation by "not" knowing and accepting Christ? So if we do not preach the gospel, then the Holy Spirit will go around saving people? This is heresy. Then you guys, put requirments on believers to be saved and would unsave those who do not keep ceratin rules but Muslims are saved becaused they do not believe, christians lost because they believe, and have not kept a list of religious rules? Do you guys even understand how far from the truth you are?

 

[George Muller]

since a faith without works is dead and cannot save.

Faith with "works of faith" not works of law. A believer is saved by the law of faith, abraham was justified by works of "faith" as was Rahab, niether had works of law. Nor can any man be justified by the law of works.

 

[francisdesales]

To be honest, I do not know what the intent of the OP is, "the fork in Romans"??

I thought everyone knew what "the Romans Road" was all about.
IMO, most believers see it as a long detailed explanation
of the hows and whys of the believer's wonderful blessings.

The right fork goes to a narrow gate and a difficult way, which leads to Heaven.
This refers to walking in the Spirit the right way,
and not trusting in false doctrines such as OSAS.

The wrong fork goes to a wide gate and a broad way, which leads to Hell.
This refers to believing in false doctrines such as OSAS,
and not taking things too seriously.

Ah. OK, thanks John...!

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

It is the Spirit of God that enables us to do works of the Spirit - to follow the Law.

Have you considered being a Messianic christian? That's exactly what they say too.

As usual, you are not representing what I believe, or what I said...

I quoted 'your statement' and said that is also what Messianic christians claim.

Is your claim 'more right' than theirs?

?

Not interested... Maybe you can speak to a Moderator on why you feel compelled to bother me. I have already said I am not being drawn into your little flame war games...

 

[francisdesales]

]"works righteousness"[/B]

Righteous works, done by grace and through faith.

I don't know "works righteousness" that sounds like works that earn righteousness?

Righteousness is a gift. That means it cannot be earned?
Romans 5:17
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Romans 4:5-7

King James Version (KJV)

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Crazy, how can that be! Only through the righteous blood of the Lamb. How can He love us so much. Amazing Grace!

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+5:17-19&version=KJV

Not at all. Works righteousness is something one does ALONE and takes to God and says "see how good I am".

All that we have is by grace, whether faith OR good deeds done in Christ. They are both gifts. Not sure how one can focus so much on "works righteousness", while forgeting that FAITH IS A GIFT, AS WELL. I don't see anyone complaining about "faith righteousness" here. Just works. But properly understood, they are both from God. So says Eph 2:8-10.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Isn't your post #58 making that assumption, that people are teaching "works righteousness"? You begin with your "disgust" at how people could teach such a thing, cite several long passages of Scriptures, then end again with this red herring - that non-OSAS preach works salvation...

Well, its not really honest to act as if this is not the issue at hand? Of course the OP of this thread is trying to promote works and spirit of bondage. Seeing your doctrines grant a faithless salvation to muslims, I doubt you would now suggest that believers are now under a standard you do not apply to muslims?

I am just asking you, who is claiming that people can enter heaven based upon their own actions without God?

Who?

Even in our discussions about the Muslim who may enter the Kingdom without his knowledge of Christ, I was careful to state that this was a result of the Spirit of God, not the Muslim's inherent 'goodness'.

Again, George, no one here thinks we can do good without God's Spirit. Your concerns are unfounded.

To be honest, I do not know what the intent of the OP is, "the fork in Romans"??

Regards

Well please explain your position on how a muslim can obtain the Spirit of God, while they reject Christ?

George, I would bet a dollar to donuts that the typical Muslim is clueless on the Gospel as taught by the Church. They have been fed a false version. Ask a Muslim about "Trinity", for example, to get a feel for how misinformed they are. Thus, most are ignorant of the Gospel. What they are rejecting is a strawman.

Regards

 

[George Muller]

I am just asking you, who is claiming that people can enter heaven based upon their own actions without God?

Who?

Even in our discussions about the Muslim who may enter the Kingdom without his knowledge of Christ, I was careful to state that this was a result of the Spirit of God, not the Muslim's inherent 'goodness'.

Again, George, no one here thinks we can do good without God's Spirit. Your concerns are unfounded.

To be honest, I do not know what the intent of the OP is, "the fork in Romans"??

Regards

Well please explain your position on how a muslim can obtain the Spirit of God, while they reject Christ?

George, I would bet a dollar to donuts that the typical Muslim is clueless on the Gospel as taught by the Church. They have been fed a false version. Ask a Muslim about "Trinity", for example, to get a feel for how misinformed they are. Thus, most are ignorant of the Gospel. What they are rejecting is a strawman.

Regards

What does that mean? That they are saved not by "knowing" and accepting Christ, but by "not knowing" and most muslims are well versed in the scriptures, and all have heard of Christ for the foundation and teaching of their faith is based first in that the chruch has currupted the message of Jesus. They reject that Christ is the Son of God, as one of the foundations of their religion. They are called to kill Christians and Jews according to the writtings of their false phophet. And they have done this very thing, when and where they could. This is heresy and no matter how you attempt to spin it, it is heresy.

 

[francisdesales]

George, I would bet a dollar to donuts that the typical Muslim is clueless on the Gospel as taught by the Church. They have been fed a false version. Ask a Muslim about "Trinity", for example, to get a feel for how misinformed they are. Thus, most are ignorant of the Gospel. What they are rejecting is a strawman.

Regards

What does that mean? That they are saved not by "knowing" and accepting Christ, but by "not knowing" and most muslims are well versed in the scriptures, and all have heard of Christ for the foundation and teaching of their faith is based first in that the chruch has currupted the message of Jesus. They reject that Christ is the Son of God, as one of the foundations of their religion. They are called to kill Christians and Jews according to the writtings of their false phophet. And they have done this very thing, when and where they could. This is heresy and no matter how you attempt to spin it, it is heresy.

Who is Christ? Is it the concern of God the Father that we know the Jesus of history? Do you think eternal salvation rests upon knowledge of a man named Jesus of Nazareth who was nailed to a cross?

Haven't you just reverted to condemning so many millions - billions - of people who were unaware of this portion of history???

"Knowing" Christ, the Son, is knowing Love. God is love. He who loves is of God. Correct???

Again, you are having a difficult time with this because you are trying to turn this into the ordinary means of salvation, when it is not. It is an exception.

Can we not agree that God can save whomever He wills, George? Let's start with that... Yes or no?

Regards

 

[smaller]

As usual, you are not representing what I believe, or what I said...

I quoted 'your statement' and said that is also what Messianic christians claim.

Is your claim 'more right' than theirs?

?

Not interested... Maybe you can speak to a Moderator on why you feel compelled to bother me. I have already said I am not being drawn into your little flame war games...

I have said many times I believe people in your 'sect' are saved. That's a flame now?

LOL X 10 for that kind of SPIN.

I also understand that people like to pump their systems without having to answer for anything.

s

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We were given the Spirit to uphold the requirements of the law, not discard them.

So, you heading to the salvation by law performance camp now JB?

?

No. But I'm not surprised this continues to be misunderstood.

The argument is, the law is upheld because you have the Spirit of God that the prophet say God would give so we can uphold the requirements of the law. But no matter how much one tries to explain the argument, it continues to be heard as 'works salvation', for all that means to them. The church has been thoroughly indoctrinated with the lie that a faith that can't be seen in what it does CAN save, in direct contradiction to the inspired words of James.

The person whose 'faith' doesn't uphold the requirements of the law (summarized in 'love your neighbor as yourself') has a faith that can not save them. They possess a faith that can not make them legally justified before God in heaven. IOW, they have a faith that secured no forgiveness of sins. The evidence of that is that person is unable to extend the grace of God to other people, because they have not secured it for themselves.

 

[John Zain]

Dear John,
Could you please tell me what OSAS means? I really have never heard about it.

Hi Rose,

OSAS means Once Saved Always Saved,
i.e. a BAC (Born Again Christian) can never lose his/her salvation.

 

[John Zain]

To be honest, I do not know what the intent of the OP is, "the fork in Romans"??

I thought everyone knew what "the Romans Road" was all about.
IMO, most believers see it as a long detailed explanation
of the hows and whys of the believer's wonderful blessings.
The right fork goes to a narrow gate and a difficult way, which leads to Heaven.
This refers to walking in the Spirit the right way,
and not trusting in false doctrines such as OSAS.
The wrong fork goes to a wide gate and a broad way, which leads to Hell.
This refers to believing in false doctrines such as OSAS,
and not taking things too seriously.

Ah. OK, thanks John...!
Regards

It really means when you stick a fork in Romans, it's obvious that it's well done!
And it's a disastrous method ... you really must first know how sharp the fork is!

 

[smaller]

We were given the Spirit to uphold the requirements of the law, not discard them.

So, you heading to the salvation by law performance camp now JB?

?

No. But I'm not surprised this continues to be misunderstood.

The argument is, the law is upheld because you have the Spirit of God that the prophet say God would give so we can uphold the requirements of the law. But no matter how much one tries to explain the argument, it continues to be heard as 'works salvation', for all that means to them.

It has to be if you don't and are thusly not saved. That's simple reasoning.

The definition of 'sufficiency' is also lacking for the most part in all such claims.

s

 

[John Zain]

We're just as guilty as the Jews, but in accordance to trusting in our own knowledge
of God and salvation. Guilty because what we trust in has not led to obedience either.

Paul said we are MORE guilty than the Jews because we have the Holy Spirit to
guide us into all truth, etc., but the Jews only had a man (a prophet) to do this.
They used to fight against him and say, "You're only a man, what do you know?"

 

[George Muller]

Who is Christ? Do you think eternal salvation rests upon knowledge of a man named Jesus of Nazareth who was nailed to a cross?

YES in absolute terms.
Joh 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

 

[farouk]

Who is Christ? Do you think eternal salvation rests upon knowledge of a man named Jesus of Nazareth who was nailed to a cross?

YES in absolute terms.

Stated differently, John 3.16.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Isn't your post #58 making that assumption, that people are teaching "works righteousness"? You begin with your "disgust" at how people could teach such a thing, cite several long passages of Scriptures, then end again with this red herring - that non-OSAS preach works salvation...

Well, its not really honest to act as if this is not the issue at hand? Of course the OP of this thread is trying to promote works and spirit of bondage. Seeing your doctrines grant a faithless salvation to muslims, I doubt you would now suggest that believers are now under a standard you do not apply to muslims?

I am just asking you, who is claiming that people can enter heaven based upon their own actions without God?

Who?

Even in our discussions about the Muslim who may enter the Kingdom without his knowledge of Christ, I was careful to state that this was a result of the Spirit of God, not the Muslim's inherent 'goodness'.

Again, George, no one here thinks we can do good without God's Spirit. Your concerns are unfounded.

To be honest, I do not know what the intent of the OP is, "the fork in Romans"??

Regards

Well please explain your position on how a muslim can obtain the Spirit of God, while they reject Christ?

Who said the theoretical person being talked about here has rejected Christ? This person has never heard the name of Christ, nor knows about the law of Moses.

The knowledge of God they have is what has been revealed to them by the Spirit through conscience and nature. That is the 'law', the standard of righteousness that God will use to judge their response to that revelation of righteousness and whether they responded in faith, or rejected it and continued in their fallen ways. That is how they become a law unto themselves, meaning their own stunted and uneducated revelation of God's righteousness is what God will judge them by.

In similar fashion, I used to point out to unbelievers that engaged me in discussion that when they judged us Christians as being hypocrites (a favorite unbelievers argument) they were condemning themselves because they were showing they knew about a standard of righteousness but did not live up to it themselves. That knowledge will testify against them at the judgment.

 

[Deborah13]

Who is Christ? Is it the concern of God the Father that we know the Jesus of history? Do you think eternal salvation rests upon knowledge of a man named Jesus of Nazareth who was nailed to a cross?

Again, you are having a difficult time with this because you are trying to turn this into the ordinary means of salvation, when it is not. It is an exception.

So the ones who are saved through the blood of the Lamb and backslide are no longer saved.
And those who are good people will be saved without the blood of the Lamb even though they worship false gods, and have not repented of sinning against the Father.

SALVATION BY HOW GOOD YOU ARE = SALVATION BY WORKS

I will have to try to find it but I'm pretty sure there is a scripture that says ALL people will have a chance to accept Jesus and His salvation. I don't know how He will or has accomplished done this but He does, I think.