“The Romans Road†has a disastrous fork in the road!

[francisdesales]

Well I will let it go but all believers should consider that some would grant salvation to those who reject Christ, of course they will dance around this with word games, and find reasons and conditions to cause the believers in Christ to be under these legalistic and religious works to earn what God only gives freely by faith. Now I am ready to leave the issue, but I will not respond nor take notice of those who call themselves "Christians" and attempt to teach open heresy.

George, no one is granting salvation to anyone!!! That is something God ALONE does. NOR is anyone taking away salvation from anyone!!! Again, that God ALONE does.

Is this clear?

Suggesting that an OSAS person can fall away OR that a "noble pagan" may enter the Kingdom is not usurping the role of God. It is a theological position based on Scripture and our knowledge of God. It is based on God's own Word - that judgment at the end is based upon how we respond to God's promptings of the Spirit - to that written/unwritten law in our hearts. That response, if positive, is DEPENDENT upon God planting the seed in the first place, for without the seed, there can be NO FRUIT. Thus, NO ONE can boast in their own actions.

None of this suggests "works salvation". There is no sense of asking for a wage in the above paragraph. Maybe this rocks your world, but that's the way it is. If you want to understand "our" position, you have to stop and read what we are writing and saying, rather than creating or perpetuating the strawman set up by OSAS pastors.

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

If you look at what the false prophets taught in context, George, you will find out that is right in line with what you teach - antinominism. "I can do whatever I want, I'm going to heaven, no matter what".

A person who lives a life of sin is not saved, no matter what "passport" they issued you at your altar call, George.

 

[francisdesales]

Deborah, these people who are saved outside of any knowledge of Jesus, the gospel,

First, one of the core beliefs of the muslim religion is to deny Christ. And no man has any authority to promote than anyone can be saved apart from faith in Christ. This is heresy.

No, that is not a core belief of Islam... Christ is not mentioned, positively or negatively, as one of the pillars of Islam.

Now, a mullah preaching that Christ is not God, yes, that is heresy. But one must wonder what they know. Do they preach a strawman version, such as their human idea of the relationship between the Father and the Son to deny Trinity? In their minds, Trinity cannot be true because the Father cannot have sexual relations to bring forth a Son. It is a shallow argument and does not address what Christians actually believe. Thus, the typical Muslim denies a strawman version of the Gospel. Be that as it may, God will judge one's knowledge and response to the unwritten Law.

Yet again, the Gospel is good news, but is everyone who has not heard this news automatically condemned for something beyond their ability to know?

2Pe 2:1 ¶ But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

For one to deny something, they must know about it first...

 

[George Muller]

Suggesting that an OSAS person can fall away OR that a "noble pagan" may enter the Kingdom is not usurping the role of God. It is a theological position based on Scripture and our knowledge of God. It is based on God's own Word -

Please give this scripture?

Here is what you have to reject;
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Re 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

2Pe 2:1 ¶ But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

 

[francisdesales]

No. Only those who live by OSAS doctrine and reject Christ thinking they're still protected by the blood they have rejected.

So we who believe and have faith in His Blood are condemned because we trust in His Blood

George, this is starting to get tiring - your inability to follow what non-OSAS actually believe...

If you believe TODAY, you trust in His blood TODAY, you are saved TODAY. You are free from the slavery of sin TODAY.

If you are yet again enslaved to sin later in life, you no longer believe, no longer trust in His blood. There is no forgiveness of sins, no blood of Christ for such. (Hebrews 10:26).

How can such a one be "saved" if they display the tendencies of an unsaved, enslaved person? He who works the works of the flesh is living by the flesh, not the Spirit. Read Romans 8, George. Read 1 John. No one can call themselves "saved" if they are living the life in the flesh, living a lifestyle that shows no relationship to Christ.

CAN SUCH A "FAITH" SAVE? What does James say?

 

[francisdesales]

Suggesting that an OSAS person can fall away OR that a "noble pagan" may enter the Kingdom is not usurping the role of God. It is a theological position based on Scripture and our knowledge of God. It is based on God's own Word -

Please give this scripture?

Here is what you have to reject;
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

1. Believes. Presently. Shown by their fruit. Not by their mouth.
2. Believes not = rejects. As in: "I know what Jesus teaches and I reject it", say the Pharisees. It is NOT "doesn't know about".

Re 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

OK, not sure what your point is here, except it proves MY point. Overcomes WHAT? Sin and slavery, done only by God's Spirit. Doesn't say one must know about Jesus of Nazareth's history. If you think that, every person of the OT is in hell right now...

1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

Again, DENIES. What is the person denying? What level of knowledge must one possess to deny something?

If someone preaches that Jesus Christ was an airline pilot, and I deny that, does that mean I am denying Jesus?

[

2Pe 2:1 ¶ But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Yea, apply that to yourself, George... It carries the same force, damnable heresies about being saved while murdering, raping, lying, causing dissent, stealing, etc... Sure.

 

[George Muller]

No, that is not a core belief of Islam... Christ is not mentioned, positively or negatively, as one of the pillars of Islam.

Here is one of the many direct quotes of the koran, concerning Christ Jesus, I suggest you study some before to attempt to promote your false teachings;

"Oh People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion, nor say of God anything but the truth. Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, was (no more than) a messenger of God, and His Word which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him. So believe in God and His messengers. Say not, 'Trinity.' Desist! It will be better for you, for God is One God, Glory be to Him! (Far exalted is He) above having a son.

There are many more that prove that islam is a direct work of anti-christ.

 

[smaller]

The premise being put forth in the non OSAS vein is, for all intents and purposes, this:

IF a person who has called upon the Lord to save them SINS, THEN they are lost.

It's a very simple IF THEN exercise in reasoning.

The premise that they all put forth is failure to acknowledge a prior IF THEN.

IF someone has called upon the Lord to save them, THEN the Lord will save them.

No one can empirically prove that Christ honored their request to begin with, in other words WE as believers believe that is a matter of PROMISE from God in Christ.

And no one can empirically prove that God in Christ ever leaves them either.

AND no one can prove anyone is saved anyway. These are all matters we have faith in and nothing more.

Every poster here would be instant to provide themselves the benefit of the doubt every single time.

Why bother to speculate, yes SPECULATE about the dire ills that 'supposedly' await those who don't hone up to your imaginations about how things are?

Fact is there are zero named examples of any believer falling away and then on their way to hell. Churches ANCIENT have always made allowance for the possibility of PREVAILING GRACE.

It is within what I term the 'little power monger' camps that get ahold of the false idea of God burning those He supposedly will save when they have ONCE called upon Him to SAVE, to threaten such and belittle others and glorify their own petty minds.

Grace is bigger than any of you so get over it.

s

 

[francisdesales]

No, that is not a core belief of Islam... Christ is not mentioned, positively or negatively, as one of the pillars of Islam.

Here is one of the many direct quotes of the koran, concerning Christ Jesus, I suggest you study some before to attempt to promote your false teachings;

"Oh People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion, nor say of God anything but the truth. Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, was (no more than) a messenger of God, and His Word which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him. So believe in God and His messengers. Say not, 'Trinity.' Desist! It will be better for you, for God is One God, Glory be to Him! (Far exalted is He) above having a son.

There are many more that prove that islam is a direct work of anti-christ.

That's a direct quote? Which chapter/verse?

My point is that it is not a pillar of Islam, a core teaching, like you state.

As usual, you are not absorbing what I am saying. You are telling us that every single Muslim ever born is/will be sent to eternal damnation. Every single person born before 25 AD. Burning in hell. Every single native American of the Western Hemisphere before 1500. In hell right now. Burning because of some "justice" of not having the chance to know about Jesus of Nazareth.

I reject such ideas. The God I believe in is merciful and takes into account the knowledge within.

I think we should let God decide whether He sends His Spirit to a particular Muslim or not. Can we leave it at that?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Deborah, these people who are saved outside of any knowledge of Jesus, the gospel,

First, one of the core beliefs of the muslim religion is to deny Christ.

In some Muslim countries the gospel of Christ is never spoken. Generations of people grow up never having heard about the forgiveness of sins through the body and blood of Jesus. You have to hear the gospel first before you can deny Christ.

And no man has any authority to promote than anyone can be saved apart from faith in Christ. This is heresy.

Then Paul is a heretic:

14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares." (Romans 2:14-16 NIV)

Here we have people that will be saved on the day of wrath who "do not have the law" (the standard of God's righteousness revealed) but who show that they know about God's law by nature. And it is that which was revealed to them outside of having known about the law of Moses that will be used as the basis of their judgment, for or against them. Read it. It's right there.

2Pe 2:1 ¶ But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

How in the Lord's name is it a damnable heresy to explain to people, who Romans 2 doesn't even apply to, that Christ speaks to people about sin and the judgment to come outside of the knowledge of the law? Especially since we see him doing that in our very own Bibles. Beginning with Cain and Abel.

You and I and everybody else here is responsible for the direct knowledge of the gospel. If we don't submit to the gospel to the very end we will not be saved. But as long as we keep believing and don't deny Christ, our salvation is the surest thing in all the universe. Faith is the security of salvation, not unbelief. That's what's heretical...to think believers who knowingly walk away from the full knowledge of the blood to become unbelievers will inherit the kingdom. Unbelievers do NOT inherit the kingdom.

 

[smaller]

Here we have people that will be saved on the day of wrath who "do not have the law" (the standard of God's righteousness revealed) but who show that they know about God's law by nature. And it is that which was revealed to them outside of having known about the law of Moses that will be used as the basis of their judgment, for or against them. Read it. It's right there.

What GOD might that be Jethro? The one in their imaginations?

The world is filled with imaginary gods outside of christianity. There are many BUDDHISTS that do good and that claim to know God as BUDDHA.

If such are saved on the basis of doing good and knowing God (by nature, whatever that may mean) then there is no need to spoil their party is there?

s

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Here we have people that will be saved on the day of wrath who "do not have the law" (the standard of God's righteousness revealed) but who show that they know about God's law by nature. And it is that which was revealed to them outside of having known about the law of Moses that will be used as the basis of their judgment, for or against them. Read it. It's right there.

What GOD might that be Jethro? The one in their imaginations?

The true God. What is it that you can't understand?

I find it interesting that your doctrine insists an unbeliever who used to be a believer in Christ can come into the kingdom, but all other unbelievers can't.

Our doctrine is consistent because it makes it clear that no one can come into the kingdom without faith and repentance--faith and repentance according to what they do know about the righteousness of God, not what they don't know.

The world is filled with imaginary gods outside of christianity. There are many BUDDHISTS that do good and that claim to know God as BUDDHA.

If they have rejected the knowledge of Christ and the gospel they will be lost. What's your point?

If such are saved on the basis of doing good and knowing God (by nature, whatever that may mean) then there is no need to spoil their party is there?

s

They are saved the same way you and I are saved, on the basis of having the faith that what they know about the righteousness of God that has been revealed to them (whether that be through the Bible, or through conscience and the nature of things) has led them to repentance from works that lead to death.

The problem here is you and I come from a church that has been taught that to 'have faith' can't possibly mean hearing about the righteous standard of God and his judgment according to that standard and then, by faith, repenting of dead works.

Somehow that can't possibly be the gospel message of God because it includes the word 'repentance'. That makes it a 'works' gospel which we are told is not right. That's how badly the church has been indoctrinated by this false gospel of 'just believe, don't do anything, or you'll be guilty of trying to earn your salvation'.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No. Only those who live by OSAS doctrine and reject Christ thinking they're still protected by the blood they have rejected.

So we who believe and have faith in His Blood are condemned because we trust in His Blood

Wow. I share your frustration, Francis. Even though we repeatedly explain it is those who don't have, or who don't continue to trust in the blood who will be condemned it still is heard as those who do have trust in the blood who will be condemned.

Amazing. Simply amazing.

 

[smaller]

The true God. What is it that you can't understand?

If that God is, as you say, revealed by 'nature' what God is that God revealed by nature?

You understand that consensus on that is rather innocuous and diverse?

I find it interesting that your doctrine insists an unbeliever who used to be a believer in Christ can come into the kingdom, but all other unbelievers can't.

No, I just don't believe there is such a 'believer' whom God abandons, once called upon.

People are factual failures. God isn't. Simple comparison. I 'expect' that failures fail. I 'expect' God is not a failure.

That's one of my beef's with the non-OSAS presenters. Unbelief is in fact A SIN.

So in effect all of you are condemning fallen believers for SIN.

And I point out the obvious large gapping hole and gaffe in such presentations, that being the fact is 'we all' sin and have sin. Just because 'theirs' is supposedly a different kind of sin doesn't make it any less SIN than yours who are supposedly 'somehow' remaining in His Good Grace by whatever means you happen to employ for YOUR SIN.

Our doctrine is consistent

Who's 'our?' The beliefs in non-OSAS camps is just as much diverse as any other campset.

In some 'sects' you must go through certain rituals and exercises to stay in Gods Good Graces. And they vary down to each one having it's own rulz of the game.

because it makes it clear that no one can come into the kingdom without faith and repentance--faith and repentance according to what they do know about the righteousness of God, not what they don't know.

You just defined faith as 'knowing God by nature' and such being saved, without knowing a single thing about God in Christ.

I'm not saying that particular sight is bad, but I might also point out that these same, knowing God by nature would NOT know about that same God burning them alive forever or eternally killing them 'by nature.'

Preaching that 'God' to them would actually be a disservice and could serve to push them entirely away from your God and them remaining with the God known by nature who is not intent on destroying them.

You catch the drift? It's called in the arena of reasoning with theology a dilemma.

Here is an example of such a dilemma applied another way: If all children are saved prior to the age of accountability, then killing children is just as it assures them HEAVEN. Many 'sects' hold this dilemma and don't and can't see the fact of it.

Preaching God in Christ to someone who is saved merely by knowing an unknown God by nature is also a disservice if they are going to be saved already.

They are saved the same way you and I are saved, on the basis of having the faith that what they know about the righteousness of God that has been revealed to them (whether that be through the Bible, or through conscience and the nature of things) has led them to repentance from works that lead to death.

Ah yes. The dilemma widens considerably.

I would say then, why bother to preach? If they stand a chance in the way above their chances might appear to be just as good or even perhaps better just left up to God.

Why go to them and lay POTENTIAL DAMNATION upon them and almost ASSURE to drive them away or even worse, to make them servants of FEAR?

You see people who 'think' they are serving God who do so on the basis of FEAR, are they really servants?

If someone holds a gun to my head and demands that I do anything, I am that persons SERVANT OF FEAR.

Would you call that FAITH? I don't.

The problem here is you and I come from a church that has been taught that to 'have faith' can't possibly mean hearing about the righteous standard of God and his judgment according to that standard and then, by faith, repenting of dead works.

The judgment of God as defined by whom? The difficulty for every last one of you who are seeking to destroy fallen believers is to DEFINE WHAT BASIS you are using.

If any of you say UNbelief, I can still factually say that is SIN and you also SIN. Where is your IN for that and their OUT?

If you say any sin the same objection comes forward. None of you became sinless upon belief nor are you ever sinless after belief.

Somehow that can't possibly be the gospel message of God because it includes the word 'repentance'. That makes it a 'works' gospel which we are told is not right. That's how badly the church has been indoctrinated by this false gospel of 'just believe, don't do anything, or you'll be guilty of trying to earn your salvation'.

The notion that anyone does 'nothing' is utter nonsense and you know it.

We ALL do both good and bad, period. There is no avoiding this fact.

So using 'actions' as a basis of faith will result in the obvious conclusion, that we ALL do good and bad, period.

s

 

[reba]

Closed for a cooling down...... give you all some time to think about the way your responses are phrased....

 

[John Zain]

Who is Christ? Do you think eternal salvation rests upon knowledge of a man named Jesus of Nazareth who was nailed to a cross?

YES in absolute terms.
Joh 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Are you aware that some who believed (pisteou) ended up not being (staying) Christians,
according to John?

 

[John Zain]

Paul said we are MORE guilty than the Jews because we have the Holy Spirit to
guide us into all truth, etc.,

Scripture please. Thanks

Heb 10:26-31

 

[John Zain]

The wrong fork goes to a wide gate and a broad way, which leads to Hell.
This refers to believing in false doctrine such as OSAS,

So all the faithful Christians who believe in OSAS are now condemned to Hell.

:naughty : Someone should be embarrassed, but probably won't be..

No, sorry, not the best choice of words!
How should I state this?

People who believe in false doctrines are in danger of them affecting their spiritual walk.
IMO, many people who are trusting in false doctrines are on the broad road.
These many are not on the straight and narrow road.

An example is:
If OSAS is incorrect, SOME blindly trusting in it obviously will be letting their guard down.

How careful one must be with their words!

 

[George Muller]

No, that is not a core belief of Islam... Christ is not mentioned, positively or negatively, as one of the pillars of Islam.

Here is one of the many direct quotes of the koran, concerning Christ Jesus, I suggest you study some before to attempt to promote your false teachings;

"Oh People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion, nor say of God anything but the truth. Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, was (no more than) a messenger of God, and His Word which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him. So believe in God and His messengers. Say not, 'Trinity.' Desist! It will be better for you, for God is One God, Glory be to Him! (Far exalted is He) above having a son.

There are many more that prove that islam is a direct work of anti-christ.

That's a direct quote? Which chapter/verse?

My point is that it is not a pillar of Islam, a core teaching, like you state.

As usual, you are not absorbing what I am saying. You are telling us that every single Muslim ever born is/will be sent to eternal damnation. Every single person born before 25 AD. Burning in hell. Every single native American of the Western Hemisphere before 1500. In hell right now. Burning because of some "justice" of not having the chance to know about Jesus of Nazareth.

I reject such ideas. The God I believe in is merciful and takes into account the knowledge within.

I think we should let God decide whether He sends His Spirit to a particular Muslim or not. Can we leave it at that?

Well you were clearly wrong about your assertion and yet you are not humble enough to admit your error? I am sorry you do not get to decide who God saves and who He unsaves. The Word of God has already decided this.

Here is what you have to reject;
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Re 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

2Pe 2:1 ¶ But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

 

[George Muller]

Who is Christ? Do you think eternal salvation rests upon knowledge of a man named Jesus of Nazareth who was nailed to a cross?

YES in absolute terms.
Joh 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Are you aware that some who believed (pisteou) ended up not being (staying) Christians,
according to John?

Well those who turn from grace back to law, have rejected Christ and are cut-off from Him, is this who you are speaking?

 

[George Muller]

In some Muslim countries the gospel of Christ is never spoken. Generations of people grow up never having heard about the forgiveness of sins through the body and blood of Jesus. You have to hear the gospel first before you can deny Christ.

Ro 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

If God destroys every muslim, He is righteous!