A discussion on TOTAL DEPRAVITY

[GodsGrace]

B.I.N.G.O.


Sigh, you just contradicted yourself. I think you mean to say that "salvation isn't [ultimately determined] by men making choices. If you had not made a choice to believe you would not be saved. Why you made that choice is another matter.





You choose because He chose. *sigh*



Adam chose because God chose. A causes B causes C causes .... Just because A (God is always the First Cause and therefore A is the ultimate cause) doesn't negate that B and C can also cause things. You're reformed, why don't you study the doctrine of First and Second Causes.

Hey .... wondering is saying that consistent Reformed people like you believe God is Unjust. You're the Calvinism moderator ... why do you let this lie go on ?????? Why are you not speaking up?????

Because I biblically back up what I state.
Because I quote it from the Institutes and the WCF.

If someone said something I didn't like about Catholicism but BACKED IT UP from the CCC,
there's not too much I could do about it.

Maybe brightfame52 is an honest moderator, like he's supposed to be, and not take sides, like moderators are not supposed to do.

 

[electedbyHim]

Reformed believe God is just. People make many claims but are truly clueless.

 

[Fastfredy0]

No staff other than @brightfame52 are to moderate in here, or the owner, as similar to God, he can do whatever he wants and is just in doing so

Might have taken that analogy too far ... *giggle*

*kicks* brightfame52 (alias small 'g' god) in the butt .... do something .... we're are being accused of calling God unjust ...

*aside* in actuality, I think she just doesn't have the ability to articulate her ideas accurately, but whatever
*aside2* thank Free, a voice of reason

 

[electedbyHim]

Might have taken that analogy too far ... *giggle*

*kicks* brightfame52 (alias small 'g' god) in the butt .... do something .... we're are being accused of calling God unjust ...

*aside* in actuality, I think she just doesn't have the ability to articulate her ideas accurately, but whatever
*aside2* thank Free, a voice of reason

Agreed.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Presbyterians don't (at least the ones that refuse to ordain homosexual women as pastors). Nor does the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod [LCMS]. You have a "every other denomination" bias.

Reformed Denominations in Italy:

• The Waldensian Evangelical Church
• The Evangelical Reformed Baptist Churches in Italy
• The Presbyterian Church in Italy

Reformed Denominations in North America:
Presbyterians

• American Presbyterian Church (founded 1979)
• Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church (Scots-Irish Presbyterians)
• Bible Presbyterian Church (1937 from the OPC)
• Covenant Presbyterian Church
• Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church
• Covenanting Association of Reformed and Presbyterian Churches
• Cumberland Presbyterian Church
• Cumberland Presbyterian Church in America
• ECO: A Covenant Order of Evangelical Presbyterians
• Evangel Presbytery
• Evangelical Assembly of Presbyterian Churches in America
• Evangelical Presbyterian Church
• Faith Presbytery, Bible Presbyterian Church
• Free Church of Scotland - has about 9 congregations in North America
• Free Church of Scotland (Continuing) - has 7 congregations in North America
• Free Presbyterian Church of North America
• Korean-American Presbyterian Church
• Korean Evangelical Presbyterian Church in America
• Korean Presbyterian Church Abroad[22]
• Korean Presbyterian Church in America (Kosin)
• Orthodox Presbyterian Church
• Presbyterian Church in America
• Presbyterian Church in Canada
• Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.)
• Presbyterian Reformed Church (North America)
• Reformed Presbyterian Church General Assembly (1990 from the RPCUS)
• Reformed Presbyterian Church - Hanover Presbytery
• Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America (RPCNA, Scottish Covenanters)
• Upper Cumberland Presbyterian Church separated from the Cumberland Presbyterian Church
• Vanguard Presbytery

Continental Reformeds

• Alliance of Reformed Churches(founded 2021 out of the RCA)
• Calvin Synod (United Church of Christ)
• Canadian and American Reformed Churches (Dutch Reformed - Liberated)
• Christian Reformed Church in North America (Dutch Reformed - GKN)
• Free Reformed Churches in North America - (Dutch Reformed - CGKN)
• French Protestant (Huguenot) Church, Charleston, SC
• Heritage Netherlands Reformed Congregations
• Hungarian Reformed Church in America
• Kingdom Network (inaugurating September 9, 2021 out of the RCA)
• Lithuanian Evangelical Reformed Church in America
• Netherlands Reformed Congregations
• Protestant Reformed Churches in America (Dutch Reformed - GKN)
• Reformed Congregations in North America
• Reformed Church in the United States (German Reformed)
• Reformed Church in America
• Reformed Church of Quebec
• United Reformed Churches in North America (Dutch Reformed - GKN)

Congregational

• Congregational Christian Churches in Canada

Reformed Anglicans

• Anglican Mission in the Americas
• Reformed Anglican Church
• Reformed Episcopal Church

Reformed Baptist

• Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America
• Fellowship of Independent Reformed Evangelicals

Others

• Communion of Reformed Evangelical Churches
• Puritan Reformed Church
• Newfrontiers in the United States
• Sovereign Grace Churches (Credobaptist, charismatic)

They're all reformed A,
what have you proven?

I said that every OTHER denomination does not agree.

For instance,
we ALL AGREE that Jesus is God.
That Jesus is part of the Trinity.
That Jesus died and was resurrected.
That man is born a sinner.
That Judas betrayed Jesus.
That He taught on earth for over 3 years.
etc.

We ALL agree because it's true.
The reformed believe doctrine NO ONE ELSE does.

The CC has some doctrine NO ONE ELSE believes in because it may not be true.
(the assumption, for instance).

Christianity must depend on what WE ALL BELIEVE.
or it cannot be trusted.

 

[GodsGrace]

Might have taken that analogy too far ... *giggle*

*kicks* brightfame52 (alias small 'g' god) in the butt .... do something .... we're are being accused of calling God unjust ...

*aside* in actuality, I think she just doesn't have the ability to articulate her ideas accurately, but whatever
*aside2* thank Free, a voice of reason

I articulate just fine.

 

[atpollard]

NEVER said any one on any of these posts blaspheme God.
I said that reformed theology blasphemes God.

... how could anyone take offense at that?

 

[atpollard]

I said that every OTHER denomination does not agree.

OHHH ... you mean:

• Jehovah's Witnesses
• Mormons
• Christian Science
• Seven Day Adventists
• Scientologists
• Orthodox Judaism
• Reformed Judaism (which has nothing to do with Calvinism)

THOSE "every other denomination"?

 

[Fastfredy0]

Because I biblically back up what I state.
Because I quote it from the Institutes and the WCF.

LOL .. .I've never seen a quote. Do you even know what a quote is? It's where you name the author, book and page number of the book. You have to know the meaning of words in order to communicate them. This is another example of the lack of ability to do so.

Show you have integrity. You said "I biblically back up what I state. I quote it from the Institutes and WCF".
PLEASE GIVE A QUOTE (author, book, page) FROM THE WCF OR THE INSTITUTES SAYING GOD IS UNJUST.
I used you own words, do what you say you do. Show us your integrity.
Anyone want to take a bet???? I'm giving 2 to 1 odds that she will not stay true to her word which is a diplomatic way of saying something else. Anyone want to bet???

Maybe @brightfame52 is an honest moderator, like he's supposed to be, and not take sides, like moderators are not supposed to do.

Perhaps he agrees with you.

 

[GodsGrace]

No such thing as hearing and believing without first being born again and having spiritual life.

Why must we be born again before being able to believe?
Why can't it be that, yes, we need some kind of grace to be able to believe God.
The question becomes, is this grace given to everyone? IOW, does God love everyone or not?
And can we respond to this grace?
Or is God's grace IRRISISTABLE?

The NT teaches that it is RESISTABLE:

John 7:17
.Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God

Matthew 23:37
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!
Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,
Revelation 22:17
The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

 

[GodsGrace]

OHHH ... you mean:

• Jehovah's Witnesses
• Mormons
• Christian Science
• Seven Day Adventists
• Scientologists
• Orthodox Judaism
• Reformed Judaism (which has nothing to do with Calvinism)

THOSE "every other denomination"?

Are they Christian?
Be serious.

 

[Free]

I'll be back later.
Please answer those 2 questions.
I mean, I could say I love you,
but if I stick a knife in you...
DO I LOVE YOU?

This is what reformed theology does...
It states that God is just
but He doesn't act like it.

It states that God determined everything,
but he doesn't force us.
Read post 190 and tell me if it makes sense to you.
Tell my why or how it could make sense.
If I force you to choose ice-cream with a gun to your head,
can I then state that I didn't force you???

I'm really not interested in these discussions, as I think the truth of the matter is ultimately unknowable. And I'm fine with that. I would rather focus on evangelism and spreading the gospel, which is what we all believe in and what should all being doing regardless.

My only point is that we cannot know all the reasons for God's actions. While it may seem unjust to us, just as to many people these days the OT commands to wipe out entire people groups, including children and animals, seems unjust, God is just in all he says and does. That is without question simply because the Bible says God is just. If the Bible says God is just, then he is just, and that is what the reformed position is.

We must keep in mind that our understanding is deficient, since we simply cannot know certain things about God, such as his reasons for decreeing or doing certain thing. Therefore, we cannot conclude that God is unjust if he does things in a way that doesn't suit us or doesn't fit our idea of justice and isn't the way we would do it.

 

[GodsGrace]

I already explained it. God can determine someone to do something and yet they do it willingly. Hes God and we are His pots to serve His Purpose.

But, BF, if you can't explain how,,,
what are we to believe?

God is not a God of confusion, He DESIRES that we know Him and love Him.
I need verses?

If God DETERMINES that I do something....
I am NOT doing it willingly.

At least admit what calvinism teaches....don't beat around the bush.

 

[Free]

Might have taken that analogy too far ... *giggle*

Perhaps. lol

*aside* in actuality, I think she just doesn't have the ability to articulate her ideas accurately, but whatever

In all fairness, these are deep, difficult discussions that have been disagreed upon by scholars and theologians for a very long time, so we're unlikely going to solve them or come to some agreement here. And it's just the meanings of a few words, which affect how things play out throughout Scripture.

*aside2* thank Free, a voice of reason

I try, even if I'm not right.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm really not interested in these discussions, as I think the truth of the matter is ultimately unknowable. And I'm fine with that. I would rather focus on evangelism and spreading the gospel, which is what we all believe in and what should all being doing regardless.

My only point is that we cannot know all the reasons for God's actions. While it may seem unjust to us, just as to many people these days the OT commands to wipe out entire people groups, including children and animals, seems unjust, God is just in all he says and does. That is without question simply because the Bible says God is just. If the Bible says God is just, then he is just, and that is what the reformed position is.

We must keep in mind that our understanding is deficient, since we simply cannot know certain things about God, such as his reasons for decreeing or doing certain thing. Therefore, we cannot conclude that God is unjust if he does things in a way that doesn't suit us or doesn't fit our idea of justice and isn't the way we would do it.

No. This is not what is being discussed.
We're discussing a different God here.
The God of calvinism is NOT the same God all other Christian denominations worship.
This cannot be denied.

What evangelism?
Why would you care to evangelize when it's GOD that will be doing the choosing?
What does He need YOU for?

Our understanding is not deficient because this is one of the reasons Jesus had to come to us.
God tried different ways of making us understand Him in the OT.
Jesus is the ultimate and last revelation.
God did this so we COULD understand Him.
Imagine God coming to earth.
It's like one of us becoming an ant so we could warn them not to go over the edge.
Calvinism believe Jesus came here....FOR WHAT?
God has predestinated everything, even the ants going over the edge, so what's the use of sending Jesus?

Reformed theology really has to be thought out.
It could sound so nice. But it isn't.

See post 200 before you go.

 

[GodsGrace]

Perhaps. lol


In all fairness, these are deep, difficult discussions that have been disagreed upon by scholars and theologians for a very long time, so we're unlikely going to solve them or come to some agreement here. And it's just the meanings of a few words, which affect how things play out throughout Scripture.


I try, even if I'm not right.

It's not just a few words.
We're changing the very nature of God here.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm really not interested in these discussions, as I think the truth of the matter is ultimately unknowable. And I'm fine with that. I would rather focus on evangelism and spreading the gospel, which is what we all believe in and what should all being doing regardless.

My only point is that we cannot know all the reasons for God's actions. While it may seem unjust to us, just as to many people these days the OT commands to wipe out entire people groups, including children and animals, seems unjust, God is just in all he says and does. That is without question simply because the Bible says God is just. If the Bible says God is just, then he is just, and that is what the reformed position is.

We must keep in mind that our understanding is deficient, since we simply cannot know certain things about God, such as his reasons for decreeing or doing certain thing. Therefore, we cannot conclude that God is unjust if he does things in a way that doesn't suit us or doesn't fit our idea of justice and isn't the way we would do it.

Last thing. Then I have to go.
Justice means to give to each one what he deserves.

IF God is choosing who will go to heaven and who will go to hell,
without our even knowing why,
for no reason at all except that it glorifies Him and pleases Him,

IS THAT JUSTICE?
Did each person get what he deserved?

So they'll say we all deserve hell.
Then justice would be to send ALL to hell.

 

[atpollard]

Ephesians 2:1-10 [NKJV]

1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. ​

​

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.​

​

So WHO is doing all the work and WHY? [GOD; because of His love ... it ain't about US!]

 

[electedbyHim]

Romans 9:20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? WILL THE THING MOLDED SAY TO THE MOLDER, “WHY DID YOU MAKE ME LIKE THIS”?

 

[Fastfredy0]

If God is not just and sends persons to hell for no reason other than to glorify Himself and for His own pleasure..
He is AN EVIL GOD.

Premise 1: God is not just and sends persons to hell for no reason other than to glorify Himself and for His own pleasure
Premise 2: God is evil
Conclusion: Wondering thinks God is evil
Well, assuming Reform theology is correct ...you got some explaining to do *giggles*

Every theologian outside of the reformed faith agrees WITH ME.

Well, the Muslim might .. .not sure about everyone....lol... .ridiculous claim ... lot's of LGBT theologians ..., do you agree with them. Your statement is so broad as to be ridiculous.

If the bible states that God is JUST,,,,
then He must be JUST.

Agreed... .and thus Reformed theology thinks God is just.
You're problem is you think you are the ultimate authority on what JUST means ... I think God is the ultimate authority on the meaning of JUST. So when God orders the Israelites to kill babies, at first glance that might not seem just but I realize it was God giving the order so by definition it is JUST. Your problem is you define GOD in your image to a degree and it's distorted your knowledge of God (aside: granted, we all do to some degree)
Granted, each of us thinks the other distorts more. Reform people will use scripture to back up claims. Non-reform not so much, yourself being a good example.