A discussion on TOTAL DEPRAVITY

[GodsGrace]

Fastfredy0

I know how much you love to beat on wondering, and I am reluctant to get in the middle, but just to set the record straight:

1. I agree that neither the Institutes nor the WCF teach that God is “unjust, unmerciful and unloving”.
2. Wondering actually DOES quote from the WCF and Calvin’s Institutes from time to time (far more than any other poster).
3. Technically, I don’t think she claims that they SAY that God is “unjust, unmerciful and unloving”, rather I believe that her claim is that what the WCF and Institutes teach make God “unjust, unmerciful and unloving”. (I would need to search out her exact quote to confirm).

So while I agree with your conclusions, I fear that we (the ‘Calvinist’ side) may be somewhat mis-stating her position a bit. She is still WRONG, but she is not quite THAT wrong.

As for the personal animosity between you two, that’s a mutual choice … so have at it.

This is why I enjoy speaking to you.
You actually listen.

When FF came on board, I actually thought he was very intelligent and could have some good conversation. But he really hates me for some reason so I don't interact with him much.
Jesus said hate is like murder, so I keep away.
We don't have to agree to get along.

Thanks for stepping in.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Technically, I don’t think she claims that they SAY that God is “unjust, unmerciful and unloving”, rather I believe that her claim is that what the WCF and Institutes teach make God “unjust, unmerciful and unloving”. (I would need to search out her exact quote to confirm).

I can only go by what she writes.
She said R.C.Sproul was for double predestination which I knew to be untrue.... when asked she provided no evidence
She said John Piper said God was the Author of Evil ... I showed proof she was untruthful ...she provided no evidence
She said John MacArthur said God was the Author of Evil ... I showed proof she was untruthful ...she provided no evidence
She said Muslims can go to heaven with no knowledge of Christ ...then denied she said it. I even showed her quote
She said Reformed theology believes God is unjust. That she gets her evidence from WCF and Instituates. I showed she was making another false statement.

Post 175:

I can say, without hesitation, that the reformed believe God is not just.

I've gone through the Institutes and the WCF and there is NO JUSTICE in the God they represent.

The first statement is a bold faced lie.

There, in black and white. She went through WCF and there is NO JUSTICE in the the God they represent. I gave 3 quotes from the WCF stating they believe God is JUST. I could find a lot more. I asked her to point out in the WCF a statement saying God is UNJUST.

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck .. .then it is a duck.

I think I've provided ample evidence to make my point. Maybe it just comes down to her inability to articulate ideas accurately (Lord knows that common in here ... lol)

Good luck .. you've been warned

 

[GodsGrace]

I can only go by what she writes.
She said R.C.Sproul was for double predestination which I knew to be untrue.... when asked she provided no evidence
She said John Piper said God was the Author of Evil ... I showed proof she was untruthful ...she provided no evidence
She said John MacArthur said God was the Author of Evil ... I showed proof she was untruthful ...she provided no evidence
She said Muslims can go to heaven with no knowledge of Christ ...then denied she said it. I even showed her quote
She said Reformed theology believes God is unjust. That she gets her evidence from WCF and Instituates. I showed she was making another false statement.

Post 175:

The first statement is a bold faced lie.

There, in black and white. She went through WCF and there is NO JUSTICE in the the God they represent. I gave 3 quotes from the WCF stating they believe God is JUST. I could find a lot more. I asked her to point out in the WCF a statement saying God is UNJUST.

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck .. .then it is a duck.

I think I've provided ample evidence to make my point. Maybe it just comes down to her inability to articulate ideas accurately (Lord knows that common in here ... lol)

Good luck .. you've been warned

How old are you fred?
You act like a 5 year old.
I posted plenty of evidence,,,you just don't like it.
Why are you always picking on me?
I'm cute. Boys would do this in elementary school...but they grew up.
I don't think you grew up.

 

[GodsGrace]

I can only go by what she writes.
She said R.C.Sproul was for double predestination which I knew to be untrue.... when asked she provided no evidence
She said John Piper said God was the Author of Evil ... I showed proof she was untruthful ...she provided no evidence
She said John MacArthur said God was the Author of Evil ... I showed proof she was untruthful ...she provided no evidence
She said Muslims can go to heaven with no knowledge of Christ ...then denied she said it. I even showed her quote
She said Reformed theology believes God is unjust. That she gets her evidence from WCF and Instituates. I showed she was making another false statement.

Post 175:

The first statement is a bold faced lie.

There, in black and white. She went through WCF and there is NO JUSTICE in the the God they represent. I gave 3 quotes from the WCF stating they believe God is JUST. I could find a lot more. I asked her to point out in the WCF a statement saying God is UNJUST.

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck .. .then it is a duck.

I think I've provided ample evidence to make my point. Maybe it just comes down to her inability to articulate ideas accurately (Lord knows that common in here ... lol)

Good luck .. you've been warned

Funny, you didn't understand atpollard s
Post either.
I never said Calvin taught that God is unjust. He did face the question, however. But I'm through proving to you what YOU should know to be true.

I don't think you understand the reformed faith.
No. Really.
Look into it.

 

[atpollard]

The first statement is a bold faced lie.

Yup.
Virtually every time someone states what their opponents “believe” they are wrong.
I just wanted us to be careful to challenge what our opponents STATE without attempting to be mind readers and post what they BELIEVE (Lest we fall into the same error that they commit.)

Wondering has an almost perfect track record at mis-stating what the Reformed BELIEVE.
She accurately quotes the WCF and then draws false conclusions from what she just quoted.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yup.
Virtually every time someone states what their opponents “believe” they are wrong.
I just wanted us to be careful to challenge what our opponents STATE without attempting to be mind readers and post what they BELIEVE (Lest we fall into the same error that they commit.)

Wondering has an almost perfect track record at mis-stating what the Reformed BELIEVE.
She accurately quotes the WCF and then draws false conclusions from what she just quoted.

What would you like me to prove?

How do you draw a false conclusion
from predestinating to either heaven or hell?

The Institutes
Book 3
Chapter 21
Paragraph 5

and while you're at it check out paragraph 11.
Interesting stuff. First few sentences will do.

 

[journeyman]

A statement without foundation. Whereas I provide scripture to lay the ground work for my assertions; you do not.

The proof is here,

Because thine heart was tender, and thou hast humbled thyself before the LORD, when thou heardest what I spake against this place, and against the inhabitants thereof, that they should become a desolation and a curse, and hast rent thy clothes, and wept before me; I also have heard thee, saith the LORD. 2Ki.22:19

Fastfredy0 said
No need .... your formulation of thought leaves me bewildered so save yourself time.

What I said was,

"I'm going to post on the rest of this tomorrow, because it's important for others to see the truth of Christ..."

Since you seem to find Gods' will (which is revealing himself to sinners who humble themselves) unbiblical, I understand your bewilderment, but you're not the only others I was referring to.

 

[journeyman]

More evidence that you did not tell the truth .... you said reformed theology says God is unjust, unmerciful and unloving.

Knowingly condemning an innocent man is unjust, unloving and unmerciful.
Try reading the Bible that way, as no just judge condemns the innocent in place of the guilty, especially not the perfect Judge of all.

 

[atpollard]

What would you like me to prove?

How do you draw a false conclusion
from predestinating to either heaven or hell?

You have several claims that you commonly make about what “the Reformed” teach and believe that are false. Rather than engage in hearsay, let’s set this point aside for now and I will challenge it the next time you make a statement so that we can discuss a specific example rather than a general “accusation”.

You stated that “God predestines people for hell”, which requires that one define what one means by the term “predestine” when discussing those being sent to Hell. I created a POLL for ’Calvinists’ to vote on Positive-Positive Predestination (which is what I believe you are describing as ‘God predestines to hell’) and very few Calvinists believe that.

I believe, and I suspect that this is the more common view, that God merely “passes over” the reprobate (those that God has not foreknown and predestined to salvation). God does NOTHING TO them except allow them the freedom to continue to follow their natural “free but fallen” will … all the way to hell.

What INJUSTICE have they suffered? None. They merely received JUSTICE.

If you want to show SOMETHING, I will entertain quotes from the WCF or Institutes that claim God causes the reprobate to sin or repels them from the GOSPEL or takes any ACTIVE role in their damnation. Such teaching may exist (there are those that believe God’s sovereignty extends to actually creating the damned to be damned) … I would just be one among the many REFORMED that disagree with any such teaching.

 

[atpollard]

Knowingly condemning an innocent man is unjust, unloving and unmerciful.
Try reading the Bible that way, as no just judge condemns the innocent in place of the guilty, especially not the perfect Judge of all.

POINT OF CLARIFICATION: Who it the innocent condemned in place of the guilty that you refer to?
(Jesus is the only innocent that I know of … and I thought that He was condemned in place of the guilty … the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world, etc.)

 

[journeyman]

I don't think you understand the reformed faith.
No. Really.
Look into it.

The reformers took Pauls' writings and mangled them.

 

[journeyman]

POINT OF CLARIFICATION: Who it the innocent condemned in place of the guilty that you refer to?
(Jesus is the only innocent that I know of … and I thought that He was condemned in place of the guilty … the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world, etc.)

I understand that's what you thought. That's what I thought also and it was because of this belief that I didn't properly understand how the Lamb of God takes away the sins of the world.
My former and your current belief contradict scripture,

The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin. Deu.24:16

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. Eze.18:20

Gods' word prevents anyone from being punished in place of anyone else including Jesus as a son of Israel. Do you agree?

 

[GodsGrace]

You have several claims that you commonly make about what “the Reformed” teach and believe that are false. Rather than engage in hearsay, let’s set this point aside for now and I will challenge it the next time you make a statement so that we can discuss a specific example rather than a general “accusation”.

You stated that “God predestines people for hell”, which requires that one define what one means by the term “predestine” when discussing those being sent to Hell. I created a POLL for ’Calvinists’ to vote on Positive-Positive Predestination (which is what I believe you are describing as ‘God predestines to hell’) and very few Calvinists believe that.

I believe, and I suspect that this is the more common view, that God merely “passes over” the reprobate (those that God has not foreknown and predestined to salvation). God does NOTHING TO them except allow them the freedom to continue to follow their natural “free but fallen” will … all the way to hell.

What INJUSTICE have they suffered? None. They merely received JUSTICE.

If you want to show SOMETHING, I will entertain quotes from the WCF or Institutes that claim God causes the reprobate to sin or repels them from the GOSPEL or takes any ACTIVE role in their damnation. Such teaching may exist (there are those that believe God’s sovereignty extends to actually creating the damned to be damned) … I would just be one among the many REFORMED that disagree with any such teaching.

I don't make general statements.
I posted The Institutes a few posts ago.
It regards double predestination.
Positive, positive.

Doesn't Calvin know Calvinism?

 

[atpollard]

I don't make general statements.
I posted The Institutes a few posts ago.
It regards double predestination.
Positive, positive.

Doesn't Calvin know Calvinism?

You must be waiting to talk, because you are not listening to what I am actually saying.

 

[electedbyhim]

Hello electedbyhim.
Please see post 408 regarding Jn.1:13

That is your opinion.

 

[electedbyhim]

Yes, we know its God's will that not any should perish, but all come to repentance and be born again, through hearing and believing the gospel of Jesus Christ.


The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9


Do you believe it's God's will that not anyone in the world would perish?


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16






JLB

You lost me.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Virtually every time someone states what their opponents “believe” they are wrong.

This is often true. Many don't know how to state proposition properly.
Right way: Your denomination thinks God does not give all people a chance to believe. I think that would mean God is unjust.
Wrong way: Your denomination thinks God is unjust.

I just wanted us to be careful to challenge what our opponents STATE without attempting to be mind readers and post what they BELIEVE (Lest we fall into the same error that they commit.)

Agreed to some extent. We have to make some assumptions like:

• the person communicated what he actually thinks (some on here are absolutely terrible)
• the person and I both are talking about the same thing
• definitions of words should be based on the dictionary unless otherwise stated (I noticed you are one of few that defines terms on occasion which is refreshing)
• difficulties on the forum to remember context of discussion

Wondering has an almost perfect track record at mis-stating what the Reformed BELIEVE.

that's a given, though she is quick to assert her knowledge on the subject. She has made too many false statements ... something is amiss

She accurately quotes the WCF and then draws false conclusions from what she just quoted.

Again, I don't know her motivation or her abilities ... something is seriously amiss.

 

[atpollard]

Doesn't Calvin know Calvinism?

Apparently not.

1689 Baptist Faith Confession of Faith

By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ,7 to the praise of His glorious grace;8 others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of His glorious justice.9

7 1 Tim. 5:21; Matt. 25:34
8 Eph. 1:5–6
9 Rom. 9:22–23; Jude 4

 

[Fastfredy0]

The proof is here,

Because thine heart was tender, and thou hast humbled thyself before the LORD, when thou heardest what I spake against this place, and against the inhabitants thereof, that they should become a desolation and a curse, and hast rent thy clothes, and wept before me; I also have heard thee, saith the LORD. 2Ki.22:19

You say "the proof is here". I don't know what we are trying to prove/disprove. What is the subject matter... beats me.

Since you seem to find Gods' will (which is revealing himself to sinners who humble themselves) unbiblical,

False assumption. Again, I don't even know what the subject is that we are discussing.
I believe God reveals himself at times to those that are humble and to those who are not.

 

[electedbyhim]

How old are you fred?
You act like a 5 year old.
I posted plenty of evidence,,,you just don't like it.
Why are you always picking on me?
I'm cute. Boys would do this in elementary school...but they grew up.
I don't think you grew up.

I do not think he is picking on you at all. Fasrfredy is calling you out.

I am a witness to what Fastfredy is calling you out on, except the Muslim thing.

Fork tongue?