A Theological and Exegetical Examination of Holy Spirit Baptism

[Mitspa]

Unfortunately here is where we begin to get into interpretational differences. Firstly, since Scripture is good commentary on itsef, we know from other Scriptures that the word baptism is not always used of a literal immersion and also not always in water, so you cannot unqualifiedly try to associate the singular use of the word 'baptize' 1 Corinthians 12:13 with water baptism without good reason. For example "fire" is one other thing promised for a figurative immersion or baptism into, and obviously 'Spirit' was the other figurative substance into which one can be immersed (Matthew 3:11). From baptizo's root word bapto we also see that it has the general connotation 'dip', such as when Jesus dipped (bapto) his bread into the dish at the Last Supper (John 13:26). 1 Corinthians 12:13 very obviously describes a spiritual action of union (immersion) into the body of Christ by the (means or medium of the) Spirit, and a parallel passage in 1 Corinthians 10:2-4 with similar wording shows this:

"All were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ."

Compare 1 Corinthians 12:13:

"For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit."

The "baptized into" terminology is figurative in both passages (the first essentially meaning "united together unto Moses" and the second "united together unto the body [of Christ]"), and also the "drink" is spiritual in both cases, not describing literal water.



I think you have it backwards to be honest. The only point of comparison between the Gentiles' and the Jews' salvation experience (other than the required element of faith/believing) specifically hinged on the evidence of the baptism with the Spirit.

"While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.
Then Peter answered, “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?†48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days." (Acts 10:44-48)

Note that the "also" and "just as we have" both refer to the Holy Spirit being poured out on the Gentiles (which Peter associated with the baptism with the Spirit in the next chapter), and the water baptism only comes afterward and was never the object of the "also" or "just as we have" comparison.

Again in the next chapter:

"And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?â€
When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life." (Acts 11:15-18)

The "as upon us at the beginning" and "same gift as He gave us" that are speaking of the Spirit Baptism are the specific points of comparison between the Jews' experience and the Gentiles', not the water baptism, and clearly they are associated with what happened "when we believed". The allusion to water baptism is not given until the end in the form of not being able to "withstand" God in light of what He had already done, with what God had done (poured out the Spirit/baptized with the Spirit) being the whole point of comparison.

God Bless,
~Josh

I agree with your point!

 

[smaller]

Now, this is the 13th. time I ask you to show where the gentile was ever under the law of Moses. Twelve times now you have been silent. Some say 13 is a charm. Will it be your charm? Lets see.

Romans 13:9-10

for the same 13th time.

 

[rrowell]

Re: Christ in you..

Yes, some men, like you perhaps, will use every single one of those statements to try to prove that you are saved and that everyone else is not.

And such are merely erecting their self subscribed BLOCKS to Heaven where they really have no RIGHT TO SIT whatsoever.

The world of christianity is filled with such people, always trying to burn some other believer alive forever.

and in that there is a clear message being sent TO YOU

LOOK to yourself.

s

When you see scripture such as this (of which you apparently subscribe to its fullest):

Acts 16:31 (KJV)
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

You have no trouble at all with this, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved"...


But then we read here:


Mark 16:16 (KJV)
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.



You completely deny "baptism" a requirement to be saved, so it appears to me you have a real problem with understanding what it means to "believe".


To "believe" as you can see clearly from the example above, you must do "all he commands" to "believe".


If one can call them self a "believer" they must "obey all the commands" that the Lord gave us (the ones pointed out by Ernest) or you do not, can not "believe on Jesus Christ".


Why is this so hard you you "faith only" people to see... two verses Acts 16:31, and Mark 16:16 side by side prove without doubt that their is more to "believing on Him" than "faith only"...

It is not Ernest that is denying or legalizing scripture, it is the truth of which the "faith only" group deny.

 

[Mitspa]

Re: Christ in you..

Part of the workings of the Holy Spirit, is conviction of sin. It is by Him that we come to realize that we need salvation. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit was Promised to all that the Lord shall call.

For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost. [1Pet 1:21]


"And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers, Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and [that] they will hear it." - [Acts 28:25-28 KJV]

It was by the Baptism of the Holy Spirit that the Jewish Christians understood that salvation was given to the Gentiles. At the time, there was much debate concerning water baptism for them and the Lord settled the matter by baptism Gentiles in his Holy Spirit. During the discussion Peter stood up and declared:

"And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as [he did] unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life." - [Acts 11:15-18 KJV]

Very good point!

 

[Blev]

---

Jesus was speaking about a now familiar topic, "Ye shall receive power..."
One that he would elaborate on more and more after the Resurrection.
He speaks of his plan; to go the the father and prepare a "place" for us.
He speaks of "greater works" that we will do.
Of sending the Holy Spirit so that we will be one with the Father as He is.






"These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

Jesus knew we needed the Holy Spirit or He would not have sent Him. People try to live without the power of God and say they don't need it and don't want it but that does not work out very well because it wasn't merely a suggestion but what the Father wanted for them. To do what the Father planned we must be endued with power from on high.

 

[Mitspa]

Jesus knew we needed the Holy Spirit or He would not have sent Him. People try to live without the power of God and say they don't need it and don't want it but that does not work out very well because it wasn't merely a suggestion but what the Father wanted for them. To do what the Father planned we must be endued with power from on high.

Amen Brother!
being baptised in the Holy Spirit, is being baptised into the Name of Jesus!



Act 19:4

Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5

When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6

And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

We have been baptized into His Name

 

[smaller]

Re: Christ in you..

When you see scripture such as this (of which you apparently subscribe to its fullest):

To "believe" as you can see clearly from the example above, you must do "all he commands" to "believe".

If one can call them self a "believer" they must "obey all the commands" that the Lord gave us (the ones pointed out by Ernest) or you do not, can not "believe on Jesus Christ".

Or else, right?

It is not Ernest that is denying or legalizing scripture, it is the truth of which the "faith only" group deny.

Of course it's you. Scripture provides many such set ups ranging from simple faith to complex instructions. What people focus on serves to show what is in them.

Moses died in the desert from unbelief and was not baptized. Do you think he is or will be in hell?

prolly not. but more than a few will say yes because Moses didn't meet their criteria.

s

 

[Mitspa]

Amen Brother!
being baptised in the Holy Spirit, is being baptised into the Name of Jesus!



Act 19:4



Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5



When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6



And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

We have been baptized into His Name

Mar 16:17

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18

They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

 

[rrowell]

Re: Christ in you..

Originally Posted by rrowell
When you see scripture such as this (of which you apparently subscribe to its fullest):

To "believe" as you can see clearly from the example above, you must do "all he commands" to "believe".

If one can call them self a "believer" they must "obey all the commands" that the Lord gave us (the ones pointed out by Ernest) or you do not, can not "believe on Jesus Christ".

Or else, right?

Face it, you work by your own authority, and not of His, you claim "faith Only" saves, and you believe this:

Acts 16:31 (KJV)
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Somehow trumps This:

Mark 16:16 (KJV)
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

And that "baptism" is not required for salvation And by who's authority do use to come to your conclusion? when Christ says this:

Luke 6:46 (KJV)
46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Those that he referrer to that call Him "Lord, Lord" are all these people today that "call themselves" Christians.

 

[smaller]

Re: Christ in you..

Face it, you work by your own authority, and not of His, you claim "faith Only" saves, and you believe this:

Acts 16:31 (KJV)
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Somehow trumps This:

Mark 16:16 (KJV)
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

And that "baptism" is not required for salvation And by who's authority do use to come to your conclusion? when Christ says this:

Luke 6:46 (KJV)
46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Those that he referrer to that call Him "Lord, Lord" are all these people today that "call themselves" Christians.

Already stated prior, believing IS being taken and placed as a part of His Body, the ONE baptism, though there be MANY baptismS.

Ephesians 1:6
To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

If you are taking believers brought in by God Grace and threatening to burn them alive forever for not being water baptized, I would say you have twisted the matter beyond all beneficial, edifying and meaningful recognition.

His Grace is sufficient.

s

 

[rrowell]

Re: Christ in you..

Already stated prior, believing IS being taken and placed as a part of His Body, the ONE baptism, though there be MANY baptismS.

Ephesians 1:6
To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

If you are taking believers brought in by God Grace and threatening to burn them alive forever for not being water baptized, I would say you have twisted the matter beyond all beneficial, edifying and meaningful recognition.

His Grace is sufficient.

s

The Ephesians he was talking to were already saints :

Ephesians 1:1-2 (KJV)
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

The were already water baptized Acts 2:38

 

[for_his_glory]

I apologize for the length of this post as I know many do not like reading them, but here it is anyway.

BAPTISM

We put on Jesus by the renewal of our mind, body and soul through Jesus life, death and resurrection by which we can reconcile ourselves back to Gods grace and mercy through His Salvation of renewal and rebirth of spirit. We now have the mind of Christ as joint heirs with Jesus as we walk in the path of Jesus and not our own path anymore.

John 3:3-21 except a man be born again of water (Greek definition of water here is Gods word) and Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Vs.6 that which is born of the Flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Flesh cannot perceive the things of the Spirit and is enmity against God, Romans 8:6, 7.

Sin separates us from God because God is a spirit and can only recognize his own children by what spirit is living in their hearts. We have to renew, rebirth - born again, Gods Spirit within us in order to be called a child of God and see the kingdom of heaven. We now put off the old man (flesh) and put on the new man (Spirit), Colossians 3:1-17. We are renewed by the word of God and through the Holy Spirit teaching us of all things, John 14:26.

Acts 2:38,39 When we repent of our sins and ask Jesus into our hearts we are also receiving the promise of God that his Spirit will come and dwell in our hearts and teach us of all things we need to learn, John 14:26. The baptism that Peter was talking about in Acts 2:38 was a Spiritual rebirth through the word of God. Some people think it is being dunked or sprinkled with water the way John the Baptist did and there is nothing wrong with that for it is an outward appearance to man that you have received Jesus and the Holy Spirit into your life, Matthew 3:11, but Jesus himself never baptized with water for the baptism of Jesus was for receiving the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) that helps us to know the will of the Father, 1 Thessalonians 4:1-12.

There is nothing wrong with immersion in water as this is an outward appearance to others that you have received Gods Salvation and the Holy Spirit. When the Disciples where in the upper room they all received the Holy Spirit, not by immersion of water, but by Gods Spirit falling on them. What about those people who can not be immersed in water that is incapacitated. Peter did not say that it was through water that we receive the Holy Spirit in Acts 10:47, 48 he was saying that others should not forbid anyone who wants to be immersed in water, but repentance must come first and at the same time of repenting we also receive the Holy Spirit according to Acts 2:38,39.

This is from the Jerusalem Bible:
John 4:1 When Jesus heard that the Pharisees had found out that he was making and baptizing more disciples than John though in fact it was his disciples who baptized, not Jesus himself he left Judaea and went back to Galilee.

Johns baptism was for repentance, not for the receiving of the Holy Spirit as no one even knew anything of a Holy Spirit until Jesus taught them that another comforter would come down and the Holy Spirit was given on the day of Pentecost in the upper room. When Jesus was baptized of John is was to fulfill righteousness as what we all do through water baptism as an outward appearance to others that you have been made righteous through Christ.
Mat 3:14 But John forbade him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
Mat 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

Mark 10:39; 16:15,16; Acts 2:38 It is Gods Spirit that was in Christ and which we are now baptized or have received as the disciples did on the day of Pentecost as when Jesus ascended into Heaven the Holy Spirit came down and fell on those who received Jesus and his word. The baptism that Jesus and Peter was talking about was a Spiritual rebirth through Gods word, not water, Luke 3:16, as Peter taught it was through repentance and accepting Jesus and his teachings is when we receive the Holy Spirit.

Acts 8:36-38 we have to believe first and through confession we are given the Holy Spirit.
Acts 10:44-48 The Holy Spirit already fell on the disciples while they were listening to Peter. (No water involved)
Acts 19:1-7 Johns baptism was for repentance and the Holy Spirit was not received nor even heard of yet until the day in the upper room that Jesus was raised up to Heaven and the Holy Spirit fell down on all of them in that room. John baptized with water unto repentance but only as a symbolic sign that one had already received Jesus through confession/repentance.

John 14:16, 17 Jesus is telling his disciples that he will not leave them, but will send the Holy Spirit to comfort them and teach them. Jesus himself did not baptize with water, but with the Spirit and Christian baptism was only instituted after the resurrection when the Lord gave the commission to his apostles to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature, Matthew 28:19,20.

Acts 2:38 and Acts 10:47, 48 are both talking about water, but not for the remission of sins, but for an afterward appearance of acknowledgement. We are given the Holy Spirit at the same time of repentance and has nothing to do with water baptism as I have stated that water baptism is an outward appearance to others that you have already confessed and believed and received the Holy Spirit.

This is what Smith's Bible dictionary says:
To be baptized for Christ shows an intention to become a true follower of Christ. John baptized with water unto repentance but as a sign of it, perhaps only a sign of their willingness to enroll themselves among John’s followers. Jesus himself did not baptize with water, but with the Spirit and Christian baptism was only instituted after the resurrection when the Lord gave the commission to his apostles to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
This verse shows that these men had already received the Holy Spirit, but wanted to be baptized in water also as followers of Christ. So I believe both verses in Acts to be water, but not for the receiving of the Holy Spirit, but an outward appearance to others that they have repented and received the Holy Spirit already.

Mat 3:14 But John forbade him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
Mat 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

 

[Mitspa]

Act 10:45

And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46

For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

keep working on your religious traditions and false doctrines and one day you can put the Holy Spirit in a "little can" and walk it around your "church" and say "we have the holy spirit":bigfrown "please pay your tithes as we blow some smoke on you":toofunny

 

[Sparkey]

I've read John Reed's comments on this subject and consider them worthy of consideration here.

CLICK ----> The Ephesus Twelve

 

[cupid dave]

"Have you seen the light, brother?"

That question was an over used introduction to the Gospel story down through the Ages, and very common before 1950 when church people raised the issue of religion with others.

Not so common today, but everyone now knows about the Near Death Experiences, NDE.
It is no coincidence that John stood waist high when he dunked people and ended up in jail for a reason not really stated. The possiblity that John had been performing the Flat Liner experiences that had people "see the light" seems reasonable, especially in the reports we have catalogued in this age from people who reported what light they all see in the tunnel they are sucked into.

It is a theory, true, but reasonable, that John held a pharisee under too long, because he probably did not sense he cooperation he usually received.

The man died, and John went to jail?

 

[Mitspa]

I've read John Reed's comments on this subject and consider them worthy of consideration here.

CLICK ----> The Ephesus Twelve

Looks like a very honest view!

 

[smaller]

As it pertains to Holy Spirit baptism, there are various leadings of God Himself within the hearts of mankind.

In the case of Cornelius in Acts 10, we know that he was

Devout
Fasted
Gave alms
Prayed to God

And God honored the activities of Cornelius OPENLY SHOWING HIS acceptance of him in the above matters alone, even sending an angel in the form of a 'man in bright clothing' giving Cornelius direct commands. I'm quite sure it startled him, just like it would any of us.

At about the same time Peter was praying and fell into a trance. IN same he had a vision, tripled no less, of a sheet coming down 'on him' with 'unclean' things therein, and the Spirit made certain dictate to him, KILL AND EAT.

Peter of course in the first volley resisted this matter, thinking this sheet meant only killing and eating unclean things. We might say he wasn't getting the picture yet.

"and a certain vessel descending upon him"

In Peter's sight this matter was clarified (somewhat) in his perception of MAN this way and the 'wrong' thinking he had prior about Jewish exclusivity in matters pertaining to God:

"And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean."

God, by DIRECT ACTIVITY with Cornelius showed Peter that THE WORD, the LIVING WORD had came to GENTILES.

And Peter also saw them, before any other 'activity' such as "Holy Spirit" baptism, water baptism, laying on of hands, any other 'PERFORMANCE' factor, this fact:

34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Is what? ACCEPTED.

Fear of God and working righteousness = ACCEPTANCE in Gods Eyes.

I perceive that none of such have to have 'JESUS' painted across their lips either. God DOES work directly within such people REGARDLESS of the intentions of MAN. Though I would also suspect that 'others of us' who have been likewise called in are expected to provide AN HONEST WITNESS of God Himself IN CHRIST. And in this it may very well be as much in our own behalves as in the behalves of others, to hear A TRUTHFUL WITNESS.

Now, put all other 'doctrines' into perspective. If the intentions of any doctrine is to MITIGATE or ELIMINATE what God Himself has accepted, it may very well be false in intentions and probably is.

Such may be thinking they are doing God a 'favor' in such promotions. Others will think NOT and will SEE that the ACCEPTANCE of God is ALREADY upon such.

s