A Theological and Exegetical Examination of Holy Spirit Baptism

[smaller]

Smaller

Your call is to find where the gentile was ever under the law of Moses. No cop outs please. Is this now the 7th time I've asked?

Not really interested in your obvious inability to read Romans 13:9-10. It's just not my issue.

It is very very unlikely that any of us are going to read 4,000 years plus of Gods Words and see the same things.

Chances of that happening are about zero.

s

 

[Webb]

Hi again Smaller--

You wrote: "Not really interested in your obvious inability TO READ Romans 13:9-10.'' Oh but I have read it, many times. I also commented on it in response to your post, BUT your answer was ZERO. So, now, lets read it to gether: ''FOR THIS, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, THOU SHALT NOT KILL, THOU SHALT NOT STEAL, THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, THOU SHALT NOT COVET; AND IF THERE BE ANY OTHER COMMANDMENT, IT IS BRIEFLY COMPREHENDED IN THIS SAYING, NAMELY, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF. LOVE WORKETH NO ILL TO HIS NEIGHBOR: THEREFORE LOVE IS THE FULFILLING OF THE LAW."

Much of what I shall say is a repeat of my earlier post, but since you seem to have forgotten that I shall refresh your memory. Nine of the 10 commandments are brought over into the NT. The exception being to remember the sabbath day. Its a will, a testament. If one has a will or testament he may make a new one. What he brings over into the new will is binding at his death. What he does not carry over into his new will is void in his new will. Hebrews explains all of that. I'm sure you have read Hebrews. So, then, sir, I have read Romans 13:9,10, I believe every word of it, try to live by it although I may often fail. But this DOES NOT prove we are under Moses' law, nor under any law prior. We are under the NT.

My point is, the gentile was never under Moses law. Not being under that law he was not under obligation to keep it. But there was a law upon the gentile as all other men (Jew) and you might want to read the early part of Romans to get that.

So, now, I ask you for the 8th time: WHERE IS THE SCRIPTURE OR SCRIPTURES PROVING THE GENTILE WAS EVER UNDER MOSES LAW? Can or will you provide? To quote you: "Chances of that happening are about ZERO".
God bless

 

[smaller]

Romans 7:14
For we know that the law is spiritual

Carnal minds can not bring themselves to understandings. They will only see BRAHMA BULLS and can not see any other way.

Romans 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

It's a dead end to try and get a carnal mind to see the LAW SPIRITUALLY.

You have no choice but to see it how you see it.

s

 

[Webb]

Hi Smaller

So now you charge me with being carnal, citing Rom.7:14 and Rom.8:7. I didn't know there was one on earth who could read the heart of another. Well, I'll leave that to the Lord. OR is this just a smokescreen to disguise the fact that you cannot produce a scripture which would include the gentile under Moses law. I think by now we know the answer. Its obvious you are adept at pulling scriptures out of the air (as it were ) but none for the issue at point.

I asking you now for the 9th time for anything, anything which will prove the gentile was under the law of Moses. Looks like I'll soon have to start using my toes to count on for I'm running out of fingers.

You write: "Carnal minds can not bring themselves to understandings." I assure you sir, I'm interested in knowing only what the Bible teaches. Paul said in Eph.3:4 that when we read we could understand. That being true, if you will but produce the scripture that gentiles were ever the law of Moses, I BELIEVE I'LL UNDERSTAND.

Got to go for a while. I'll check if my Brahma is still available for that sacrifice you need to make since inasmuch as the command to make sacrifice in Moses law proceeded from the mouth of God.

Respectfully yours

 

[smaller]

Hi Smaller

So now you charge me with being carnal, citing Rom.7:14 and Rom.8:7. I didn't know there was one on earth who could read the heart of another.

Far be it from me to try and convince you that the law [including that of MOSES] is spiritual.

Even though Paul took 9 out of 10, (using your own limits of sight) set them right in front of your eyes, showed how to OBEY them, even you SAYING you try to OBEY them, you will still claim that is not THE COMMANDMENTS from God given to Moses.

Paul put 'any commandment' in that scripture set, which has also been hashed and rehashed, but you still don't seem to get it.

What do you really expect me to say to that?

You yourself say at least 9 are there and you try to OBEY, yet we are supposedly not under the LAW OF MOSES.

I give the net credit for entertainment.

enjoy!

s

 

[Webb]

Well hello Smaller, lets see what you've got.

You wrote: "Far be it from me to try and convince you that the law (including that of Moses ) is SPIRITUAL." I have never said otherwise. This is another distraction of yours inasmuch as you can't find scripture for the gentile being under Moses law.

You wrote: "Even though Paul took 9 out of 10, ( using you own limits of sight ) set them right in front of your eyes, showed how to OBEY them, even you SAYING you try to OBEY them you will still claim thatis not the THE COMMANDMENTS from God GIVEN TO MOSES." Again, I have said no such. This again is another effort on your part on smokescreening because you have no scripture teaching the gentile was under Mose law. I gave an argument on the making of a will from the Hebrew letter and what has been your response? Zilch! Further, if you think from the above quote that all 10 of the commandments are carried over into the church age you are challenged to produce that scripture as well.

You say: "You yourself say at least 9 are there and you try to OBEY, yet we are supposedly not under the LAW OF MOSES." Neither Jew or Gentile are under Moses law today.

You ask: "What do you really expect me to say to that?" Well, sir, I REALLY expect you to come up with those Bible passages teaching the gentile was under the law of Moses as well the Jew. Thats WHAT I REALLY EXPECT of you. Lets see now, this is the 10th time I've asked. Run out of fingers, now I'll have to take my boots off and start the next count with my toes.
God bless

 

[Mitspa]

Joh 14:12

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

totopic

 

[smaller]

You wrote: "Far be it from me to try and convince you that the law (including that of Moses is SPIRITUAL." I have never said otherwise.

Another one of those "I believe all things are not to be believed?"

You wrote: "Even though Paul took 9 out of 10, ( using you own limits of sight ) set them right in front of your eyes, showed how to OBEY them, even you SAYING you try to OBEY them you will still claim that is not the THE COMMANDMENTS from God GIVEN TO MOSES." Again, I have said no such.

heh heh. You are fun Webb.

This again is another effort on your part on smokescreening because you have no scripture teaching the gentile was under Mose law.

Yeah, right.

Except for the 9 out of 10 LAW OF MOSES above which ARE N.T. believer applicable that you 'try'
to OBEY, and of course we don't want to see Paul's reference about 'any other commandment' there either do we?

Nah, no LAW OF MOSES there or followed.

too funny.

enjoy!

s

 

[Webb]

Good morning Smaller

All you have done is to accuse me of being carnal and sectarian and poke "FUN". BUT, have you answered my discussion on Hebews? It covers our discussion (or your lack of discussion) on the subject? No, your response to quote you has been "ZERO".

Now, for the 11th time (used up the 10 fingers and now starting the count on my left foot) where is the scripture / scriptures teaching the gentile was ever under Moses' law?????

You have but 2 alternatives: 1 produce the scripture
or, 2 admit there are none. It must be obvious to all by this time since I've asked for it 10 times you have none. Thus you have been left to the tactics of calling me carnal and throwing up distractions insinuating I believe or have said somethng which I either do not believe or have not said.

Question: Do you believe 9 of the 10 commandments were carried over into the NT?

Question: Do you believe ALL ten were? If so, where is the 4th commandment commanded for the Christian to observe in the NT.

I shall have more for you, but enough for now.

Good morning

 

[smaller]

Good morning Smaller

All you have done is to accuse me of being carnal and sectarian and poke "FUN". BUT, have you answered my discussion on Hebews? It covers our discussion (or your lack of discussion) on the subject? No, your response to quote you has been "ZERO".

I do enjoy theology because I enjoy and delight in Gods Word. All of it.

And yes, when I encounter people who deride the LIVING WORD I do tend to present that EVERY WORD is in fact LIVING and VALID.

Hope you would not hold that against me buuuuruuuther.

Now, for the 11th time (used up the 10 fingers and now starting the count on my left foot) where is the scripture / scriptures teaching the gentile was ever under Moses' law?????

God has been Living and Active in His creation from the beginning. You think God limited to Israel? A special call, yes, but that is not the entirety of the matters. Even working 'adversely' in raising 'enemies' to Israel was God active and working in forming that adversity in other people?

OF COURSE.

Here, think about this for just a moment.

"God is not mocked. Whatever a man sows, that shall he reap."

This has in fact been a continual living reality with ALL mankind from the beginning.

Does that make this simplicity a little more digestible for you?

Probably NOT.

And again, what do you really expect me to say other than I tend not to get sucked into subjective funnels other than my admitted OWN.

enjoy

s

 

[Mitspa]

I do enjoy theology because I enjoy and delight in Gods Word. All of it.

And yes, when I encounter people who deride the LIVING WORD I do tend to present that EVERY WORD is in fact LIVING and VALID.

Hope you would not hold that against me buuuuruuuther.



God has been Living and Active in His creation from the beginning. You think God limited to Israel? A special call, yes, but that is not the entirety of the matters. Even working 'adversely' in raising 'enemies' to Israel was God active and working in forming that adversity in other people?

OF COURSE.

Here, think about this for just a moment.

"God is not mocked. Whatever a man sows, that shall he reap."

This has in fact been a continual living reality with ALL mankind from the beginning.

Does that make this simplicity a little more digestible for you?

Probably NOT.

And again, what do you really expect me to say other than I tend not to get sucked into subjective funnels other than my admitted OWN.

enjoy

s

I am watching you smaller

You make very good points! I wonder? are there two of you on this forum?

 

[smaller]

I am watching you smaller

You make very good points! I wonder? are there two of you on this forum?

????

 

[Sparkey]

Joh 14:12

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

totopic

I liked your totopic suggestion. I don't know how to pick one scripture from John 14 though.

Jesus was speaking about a now familiar topic, "Ye shall receive power..."
One that he would elaborate on more and more after the Resurrection.
He speaks of his plan; to go the the father and prepare a "place" for us.
He speaks of "greater works" that we will do.
Of sending the Holy Spirit so that we will be one with the Father as He is.

""In My Father's house are many mansions; if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, [there] you may be also. ...

"If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him." Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'? "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own [authority]; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. "Believe Me that I [am] in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves. "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater [works] than these he will do, because I go to My Father. "And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. "If you ask anything in My name, I will do [it]. "If you love Me, keep My commandments. "And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever-- "the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. "I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

... "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. ...

"These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. "Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid." - [John 14:2-3, 7-18, 21-23, 25-27 NKJV]

 

[Webb]

Hi Smaller
You say:"I do enjoy theology because I enjoy and delight in God's Word. All of it." Well, thats good to know. Howeve, there can be and often is a differnce between "theology" and "God's Word". Your theology may contend that the gentile was under Moses, but "God's Word" does not. If so, WHERE?

You write: "--EVERY WORD is in fact LIVING and VALID." Never said it wasn't. If, however, by valid you mean we today are responsible for doing every thng we read in the Bible, I disagee. Paul told Timothy to ''rightly divide the word of truth". When God told Noah to build an ark was He talking to you as well? If your position be "valid" then I suggest you get started. Are you offering sacrifices as God commanded the Jew under Moses'law? Better get started. Have you been to Jerusalem for worship at the appointed times lately? Better get started. These are but examples, examples of which you most likely are NOT doing. But if you are going to "live" by "every word" which ever proceeded out of the mouth of God, then suggest you better get doing for you are far behind. Where does it say the gentile was under the law?

Then you add: "God has been Living and Active in His creation from the begining." Yes indeed He has. He continues today to uphold "all things" by the word of His infinite power. Another distraction meant as a smokescreen for how does that fit in with our discussion? Does it prove the gentile under Moses? Of course not.

Then you write: "You think God limited to Israel?" The question continues to be dear sir, WHERE was it ever taught (except in your "theology") where the gentile was under Moses law? Please give the scripture and the discussion is settled.

Next, you throw up another smokescreen saying:"Even working 'adversely' in raisng 'enemies' to Israel was God active and working in forming that adversity in other people?" True. But thats "cause and effect. Proves absolutely NOTHING about the gentile being under Moses. Your smokescreen will not work.

Then you quote Paul from Galaians: "God is not mocked. Whatever A MAN (emp. yours) sows, that shall he reap". "This has been a continual living reality with ALL mankind from the begining." Yes, you speak truth here. But again, thats what we call the law of "cause and effect". Your smokscreen is too thin. It again does not prove the gentil was ever under the law of Moses. Try another distraction, for all you have are distractions, you need badly to show the gentile was under Moses.

I'm asking now for the 12th time for scripture proving the gentile was under Moses. Mitspa says he is "watching" you (whatever that means) but one thing is certain sir, others are "watching" to see you come up with the scripture that gentiles were under Moses law.

I remain, with all due respect

 

[Mitspa]

I liked your totopic suggestion. I don't know how to pick one scripture from John 14 though.

Jesus was speaking about a now familiar topic, "Ye shall receive power..."
One that he would elaborate on more and more after the Resurrection.
He speaks of his plan; to go the the father and prepare a "place" for us.
He speaks of "greater works" that we will do.
Of sending the Holy Spirit so that we will be one with the Father as He is.

""In My Father's house are many mansions; if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, [there] you may be also. ...

"If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him." Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'? "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own [authority]; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. "Believe Me that I [am] in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves. "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater [works] than these he will do, because I go to My Father. "And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. "If you ask anything in My name, I will do [it]. "If you love Me, keep My commandments. "And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever-- "the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. "I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

... "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. ...

"These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. "Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid." - [John 14:2-3, 7-18, 21-23, 25-27 NKJV]

Yea, I doubt they will listen?

 

[smaller]

Hi Smaller
You say:"I do enjoy theology because I enjoy and delight in God's Word. All of it." Well, thats good to know. Howeve, there can be and often is a differnce between "theology" and "God's Word". Your theology may contend that the gentile was under Moses, but "God's Word" does not. If so, WHERE?

If your intent is to say that 'historically' as 'in the past' when Israel was drawn out as a nation, that gentiles were not Israelites, just SAY SO.

But as it pertains to 'believers' we are in fact JOINED to The Household of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the fathers of FAITH.

If you do not and can not see it, what can I say?

Romans 4:16
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

You write: "--EVERY WORD is in fact LIVING and VALID." Never said it wasn't. If, however, by valid you mean we today are responsible for doing every thng we read in the Bible, I disagee.

I have tried to cross this impasse with you already.

The Word and the Law is spiritual. Some, however sadly, can NOT see in that direction and end up in DENIAL of Gods Words, which have always been 'spiritual' in nature.

So, a man who sees only the external matters will deny them, and rightfully so, but that is certainly not ALL that is contained therein whatsoever.

And I would remotely suspect that even you could agree with the simplicity of that fact.

We 'shared' prior that Jesus Himself said that in the LAW is also MERCY and FAITH which are undoubtedly 'spiritual' components as is GRACE which is also shown in the LAW and the PROPHETS.

We have also discussed the virtual impossibility to 'separate' the O.T. from the N.T. because they are intimately tied together.

Jesus Himself in flesh was in fact LIVING WORD of the OLD TESTAMENT made FLESH. He is assuredly not against His Own Words.

And we can go round and round on this, but unless we settle into the spiritual side of the equations mutually, we are probably just going to have to see differently.

Paul told Timothy to ''rightly divide the word of truth". When God told Noah to build an ark was He talking to you as well?

And you insist that 'a physical ark' is all that is contained there in those showings. We should both be civil enough to see that is not the case. But again, far be it from me to convince guys like you with such sights that there is MUCH MUCH more to be had.

In short, you have to live with only what you are able to see and have been given from Above. I am not the dispenser of such matters. Only a 'sharer' of what I see.

And exactly ZERO of what I see is to your detriment. I doubt very much your reflections go that direction either sensing that your intentions earlier seemed to indicate that a believer called into faith in God in Christ is basically going to burn alive forever if they do not head to the water font for an immersion. And no, I don't buy your intentions on that if that is what they are.

When His Spirit comes into any of our hearts by FAITH here is what happened:

1 John 2:14
I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

There is no difference between God, His Son, His Word, His Spirit.

If The Holy Spirit is 'in you' the same will WITNESS to the 'spiritual Truth' in ALL His Words and Ways.

Carnal minds will continue to have a hard time bringing themselves under the subjection and will in fact FIGHT against this direction.

Not saying anything BAD about such. I still believe they are SAVED regardless, but there are barriers to entry.

For EXAMPLE when the Israelites crossed the Jordan, they 'crossed' at the Ford of Jabbok.

Jabbok means EMPTYING.

You may not see any spiritual significance in that crossing. I do.

Therein I share. Therefore you resist.

We observe from 'different' perspectives. I am not required to DENY a SINGLE WORD of my Maker.

And to these Jesus will send His Word Messenger, the Holy Spirit, to show what is contained therein, that the children of God be EDIFIED, not condemned to burn alive forever if you catch my drift.

Any believer who honestly sits down with our Maker will be taken into the Mystery of faith and they will NEVER look back and will ALL be told and shared the SAME matters.

enjoy!

s

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Re: Christ in you..

One Way, many reflections therein.

Romans 8:24
For we are saved by hope

1 Peter 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Luke 7:50
And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved

Psalm 34:18
The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.

Psalm 54:1
Save me, O God, by thy name,

Psalm 55:16
As for me, I will call upon God; and the LORD shall save me.

Psalm 69:35
For God will save Zion

Psalm 72:4
He shall judge the poor of the people, he shall save the children of the needy, and shall break in pieces the oppressor.

Psalm 72:13
He shall spare the poor and needy, and shall save the souls of the needy.

Psalm 80:7
Turn us again, O God of hosts, and cause thy face to shine; and we shall be saved.

Psalm 86:2
Preserve my soul; for I am holy: O thou my God, save thy servant that trusteth in thee.

Matthew 18:3
And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

This can go on substantially MORE.

Our God is in fact AN AWESOME GOD.

But we are warned off of blocking the Gates of Heaven as well:

Matthew 23:13
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Exactly NO ONE set you at that Gate by your limited and entirely subjective filters. That is the action of those upon whom JESUS proclaimed WOE!

I'd suggest that the gates of Heaven in the hands of His Children are in fact FLUNG OPEN and MUCH WIDER than many are able to see.

Matthew 22:
Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

Some will do as they see and are LED.

s

We are saved by hope, saved by water baptism, saved by believing, saved by the engrafted word, saved by confessing with the mouth, saved by repenting, etc. This does not mean there are many different ways of being saved but that it takes all these in concert to be saved in that one way.

 

[smaller]

Re: Christ in you..

We are saved by hope, saved by water baptism, saved by believing, saved by the engrafted word, saved by confessing with the mouth, saved by repenting, etc. This does not mean there are many different ways of being saved but that it takes all these in concert to be saved in that one way.

Yes, some men, like you perhaps, will use every single one of those statements to try to prove that you are saved and that everyone else is not.

And such are merely erecting their self subscribed BLOCKS to Heaven where they really have no RIGHT TO SIT whatsoever.

The world of christianity is filled with such people, always trying to burn some other believer alive forever.

and in that there is a clear message being sent TO YOU

LOOK to yourself.

s

 

[Mitspa]

Hello brothers and sisters in Christ!

I pray that our minds and hearts can be enlightened by all spiritual truth from the Father above, through the knowledge of His Son Jesus, and the inward working of the Holy Spirit in His holy saints!

I would like to thoroughly investigate here, in a serious truth-seeking effort, the biblical significance of Holy Spirit Baptism (I am phrasing it like that on purpose) in terms of, as the thread title implies, the theological significance of the word 'baptism' when used in relation to the Spirit in Scripture and its exegetical context (its specific meaning in the actual text it occurs in) as revealed for a specific purpose and at a specific time in God's salvation history. As you may infer I want to have what might be considered a more 'technical' theological discussion rather than just discussing the ministry of the Spirit in general, and this is not intended as a topic for discussing the gifts of the Spirit except inasmuch as it relates directly to the texts mentioning baptism in relation to the Spirit. I do not intend to exclude anyone from this discussion, but even as lay men and women we should be able to approach the Bible with a faithful and defined 'hermenutic', a defined approach for consistently reading Scripture, rather than just being all "over the board" in our interpretations of Scripture and winging our doctrine.

Very simply the the theological and exegetical question that I want to put forth for discussion is this:

Are (1) the Baptism with the Spirit promised by John the Baptist and Jesus (in the Gospels and at the beginning of Acts) - and - (2) the Baptism in the Spirit (by Jesus) for the purpose of uniting the believer with the Body of Christ mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12:13 the exact same baptism? That is: are they the exact same in purpose and effect and do they describe the same action and ministry of the Spirit under the New Covenant in the believer, or is the use of the word 'baptism' as an immersion used to describe more than one aspect of the Spirit's New Covenant ministry in Scripture?

No doubt the similarties in the language exist, else this would not even be under discussion, but it is not always the case that the same word in the Bible is used in the same way with the same meaning, or even to describe the same theological concept, every time. Jesus' use of 'leaven' in a neutral/positive sense in one of his parables (Matthew 13:33) is one example of this. In Jesus' parables even the use of the 'seed' sown does not always represent the same thing from parable to parable (in some the seed refers only to the Word of God, and its acceptance or rejection is the focus, whereas in other parables there are evil seeds planted by the enemy in addition to good seeds). So also the soil or field in which the seed is planted is not always the same (the soil in the parable of the Seed & the Sower is the individual's heart, whereas in other parables "The field is the world" (Matthew 13:38) and not the individual's heart).

This topic of Spirit Baptism has been one of intense interest to me for many years and I recently just purchased three books that are a study of the ministry of the Spirit and what aspects were newly manifested in the Spirit's ministry under the New Covenant in relation to what was promised in the Old Testament, thus examining how it relates to the OT and how it stands in continuity with God's eternal plan of salvation.

I did have a specific launching point for this discussion in mind from an article that was published in a theological journal written by Larry Pettegrew (Dean and Professor of Theology at Shepherd's Theological Seminary and author of The New Covenant Ministry of the Holy Spirit) that is entitled "Dispensationalists and Spirit Baptism": http://www.tms.edu/tmsj/tmsj8b.pdf. Now, the examination of the history of different evangelical views on Spirit Baptism in the context of Dispensationalism is just a framework for the discussion at hand, and could just as easily have been penned in a similar article examining the Reformed stance. However I wanted to discuss his conclusion at the end, and his suggestion for understanding the many references to "baptism" in the New Testament in relation to the Holy Spirit.

He essentially says that there is Scriptural evidence (which I am strongly beginning to believe now after reading God's Indwelling Presence by James Hamilton) that the Baptism with the Spirit in Acts and its promise by John the Baptist and Jesus describe what was prophesied in the Old Testament of the "pouring out" of the Holy Spirit, and there is undeniable evidence at the least that Peter's mention of "pouring out" is used in relation to the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, if not to identify that baptism outright as the promised outpouring.

Then, and this is my biggest theological struggle in trying to understand all this, he argues that because the Body of Christ metaphor is specific to the New Covenant and not the Old, that the purpose for which the Baptism in the Spirit is mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12:13 (which in its broader context of the chapter is on the oneness and unity of the Body) is specifically a New Covenant ministry of the Spirit and is not the same as the pouring out of the Spirit, which he sees the baptism in Acts as being, but rather deals with the NT mystery of being "in Christ" and being united into His Body. Thus he sees the use of 'baptism' in 1 Corinthians 12:13 as being a different reference from the one in Acts, and its use as refering to another ministry of the Spirit, although obviously being more broadly related within the Spirit's overall New Covenant ministry in all believers (as with His other ministries of filling, anointing, sealing, etc). Romans 6:3 uses baptism in a similar metaphorical way for a "baptism into Christ" in the sense of being spiritually united with Christ.

I am seriously considering this interpretaion to be a theological possibility and proper interpretation of the two mentions of Spirit Baptism in the New Testament, as being the most contextually sensitive to the surrounding scriptural and doctrinal discussion in the actual books/epistles which they occur in, and as properly taking into consideration the matter of continuity with the Old Testament, which is a huge consideration which I neglected for many years. At the same time I still have reservations, since I am not clear on whether the Baptism in Acts could be seen as an external function and manifestation of the 'uniting of believers into Christ's body'.

Now the simple, and rather sloppy and hasty, assertion that could be made is that because the entire book of Acts is about the birth of the Church that "of course" the 1 Corinthians 12:13 baptism in the Spirit is in view in Acts as well. However I believe that a context sensitive approach to interpeting the passages in Acts & the Gospels and the passage in 1 Corinthians should be taken and thoroughly evaluated first, each independantly in their own context, before attempting to mesh them together. That is the proper way to approach doctrine, interpretation, and exegesis. If after that exegetical analysis (more colloquially referred to as "rightly dividing the Word") has been properly done it is found that the concepts, purposes, and functions of the ministry of the Spirit in both instances perfectly fit together as the same work of the Spirit then it may be conceded that they are one and the same as a doctrinal and theological concept or aspects of the exact same action.

Until then we must be willing for long enough to suspend our assumptions to discover what the Word of God really says. And that I am very eager to do.

Your thoughts, observations, and meditations on Scripture are very welcome in discussing this topic.

God Bless,
~Josh

Really glad you made this point! but some may have other opinions?

 

[Webb]

Hi Smaller--I've been out checking on that Brahma of mine. You'r going to need something like him if you aim to live up to your "theology". To date it seems clear you are not willing to do even that.

Regarding your post 376 you wrote: ''If your intent is to say that 'historically" as in the 'past' when Israel was drawn out as a nation, that gentiles were not Isralites." Sir, my "intent is to say" (and has been) that from the time Moses gave the law till now, the gentile was NOT under that law. I've asked you 12 times now to show such is not the case. Your silence is deafning.

You write: ''--Believers are in fact JOINED to the Household of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob the fathers of FAITH". And that may be the only "fact" you've made thus far. I agree. But, note please, WHAT kind of believers are made the "children of God by faith" in that passage in Gal.3:26-29. Which believers are made "heirs according to the promise"? Its those of Gal. 3:27 who are "baptized into Christ" and thereby did "put on Christ." That doesn't fit your "theology", but its Bible teaching.

Then you quote Rom.4:16, but for WHAT purpose do you quote it. I believe it with all my heart.

Then you say "--EVERY WORD is in fact LIVING and VALID". Yes sir,every word of God's word is in deed living and valid. Yet you insist that man must live by every word proceeding from Gods mouth in the sense of doing every word. I have shown the gentile was not under the law, thus was not obligated to do the law. But you think he should. Thus I pointed out that if the gentile had to keep the law of Moses (as you say) then you too must, for God is no respecter of persons. I've asked (and you have not answered even once), do you offer animan sacrifice? The law says you must. Do you go up to Jerusalem as commanded under the law, to worship? And there are dozens of other examples which could be given which apparently you do not keep. Solve the entire discussin by giving proof the gentile was under Moses law---you cannot do it, I know it, and by now everone reading this knows you can't provide the scripture.

You say:"I have tried to cross this impasse with you already." Well, sir, if you have indeed tried you must have fallen through the cracks somewhere along the way. The ONLY way you can "cross this impasse" is by providing the scripture teaching the gentile was under Moses law.

You write: The Word and the Law is spiritual". And so the are, but what does that prove in this discussion? Certainly not that the gentile was under the law.

Then you insist: "We have discussed the virtual impossibility to 'separate' the O.T. from the N.T. because they are intrinately tied together." Yes they are. For example,Paul writes (of the things in the OT): "Now these things were our examples,---" I Cor.10:6,11,12. I've never questioned that. What I DO question and ask proof for is that the gentile was under Moses law.

Then you write: "And you insist that a 'physical ark' is all that is contained in those showings." Dear sir, I have NEVER so insisted. Just another dodge, another smokescreen, another disraction. I have NEVER insisted that was "all that is contained in those showings" (Noah and the ark). "BY FAITH NOAH,BEING WARNED OFGOD OF THINGS NOT SEEN AS YET, MOVED WITH FEAR, PREPARED AN ARK TO THE SAVING OF HIS HOUSE; BY THE WHICH HE CONDEMNED THE WORLD, AND BECAME HEIR OF THE RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH IS BY FAITH'', Heb.11:7. A "physical ark" was commanded by God, do you now deny that? And Noah obeyed by FAITH it says and thus became heir.

And, sad for you, you conclude: "---your intentions earlier seemed to indicate that a believer called into faith in God in Christ is basically going to burn alive forever if they do not head to the water font for an immersion." Such language is but bigotry and a play for sympathy, JESUS SAID (not webb): "GO YE INTO ALL THE WORLD, AND PREACH THE GOSPEL TO EVERY CREATURE. HE THAT BELIEVETH AND IS BAPTIZED SHALL BE SAVED; BUT HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT SHALL BE DAMNED'' MARK 16:15,16. Now, sir, tell us what Jesus said,and tell us what that word "damned" means. Your argument is not with me, its with Jesus who will someday be your Judge, Jn. 12:47,48.

Now, this is the 13th. time I ask you to show where the gentile was ever under the law of Moses. Twelve times now you have been silent. Some say 13 is a charm. Will it be your charm? Lets see.

Have a nice evening. I have things to do.