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Am I saved; or am I fooling myself?

Folks.
I oppologize for sticking this long article in here, so if your not interested in the faults of the Catholic view AND really SDA and some folks in here on Salvation, please skip over it.......


Francis
Here is a good article you should read and study...

A Critique of the Roman Catholic View of Justification


With all due recognition to the common Augustinian core of salvation by grace , there are some important differences between the Roman Catholic and evangelical views of justification. Unfortunately the noble but unsuccessful recent statement by “Evangelicals and Catholics Together†lacked precision in this very area, speaking of a common belief that “we are justified by grace through faith.†What it failed to note, however, is what the Reformation was fought over, namely, that Scripture teaches, as Protestants affirm, that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone. As we will see, there is a common belief in salvation by grace, but Roman Catholics hold that justification takes place at baptism of infants, which is long before they can believe in any conscious sense. Further, as the Catholic doctrine of merit reveals, they do not believe that salvation is by grace alone (sola gratia), since meritorious works are also necessary, at least for those that live beyond infancy. Further, for evangelicals, salvation is not simply “through faith†but “by faith alone†(sola fide).
Since this was at the very heart of the Reformation, many evangelicals refuse to sign the statement since they believe it would betray the Reformation. Indeed, their protest led to a follow-up statement which strikes a more distinctively Protestant note: “We understand the statement that ‘we are justified by grace through faith because of Christ,’ in terms of the substitutionary atonement and imputed righteousness of Christ, leading to full assurance of eternal salvation; we seek to testify in all circumstances and contexts to this, the historic Protestant understanding of salvation by faith alone (sola fide).â€Â

Many criticisms of the Catholic view of justification revolve around the concept of merit (WORKS) that was made into infallible dogma of the Roman Catholic Church at the Council of Trent. The Catholic doctrine of meritorious works has been a target of Protestants since the Reformation. For Luther and his followers, it is “misleading to speak of any rewards as ‘merited.’ †Indeed, the Reformers believed that at Trent the Roman Catholic Church apostatized and denied the true gospel. “For I thoroughly believe, more firmly than I believe in God, that they are acquainted with more human doctrine, and also with more villainy, because they are proving it before my very eyes by the things they are doing, and so they are apostles, evangelists, and prophets just as little as they are the church; that is to say, they are the devil’s apostles, evangelists, and prophets. The true apostles, evangelists, and prophets preach God’s word, not against God’s word.â€Â

It confuses reward and merit. While Catholics wish to remind us that the whole doctrine of merit should be viewed in the context of grace, they overlook the fact that Scripture teaches that grace and meritorious works are mutually exclusive. Part of the reason for the difficulty is that the Catholic use of the word “reward†has an equivocal sense that leads to a confusion between a reward based on grace and one based on merit (i.e., on works), albeit prompted by grace. Often the problem seems to stem from a fallacious inference that simply because something is prompted by grace it is not obtained by merit. Just because the previous graciousness of a friend may prompt one to do a job for him that one would not otherwise have accepted does not mean that the wages earned from it were not at least partly merited, even if they were higher wages than one deserved. Thus, neither merit in the strict sense of what is justly earned nor merit which is based in part on what is earned but goes beyond that by God’s goodness is compatible with grace.

Catholic theology rightly points out that the Bible sometimes speaks of eternal life as a reward (e.g., Gal. 6:8) that one can “inherit†(Luke 18:18). In this sense, however, works are not a condition of salvation; salvation is a gift of grace received by faith alone apart from meritorious works. None of us works for an inheritance; it is something graciously given to us by a benefactor.


If, however, we are “rewarded†for our work by salvation or eternal life, then it is not truly and solely God’s grace, despite Catholic protests to the contrary. When one is rewarded for works, the reward is not a matter of grace, since the payment is owed (at least in part) for work done. As Paul said emphatically, “But if by grace, it is no longer because of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace†(Rom. 11:6). It is in this latter sense that the New Testament clearly speaks against obtaining salvation (whether justification or sanctification) as a reward (i.e., wage) for work done. For the Scriptures insist that “a worker’s wage is credited not as a gift, but as something due†(Rom. 4:4). If the Catholic concept of merit (that progressive justification [= sanctification] is obtained by good works) is true, then the grace of sanctification would be bestowed, at least in part, on the basis of good works. But what is worked for is not of grace, and what is given by grace is not obtained by works (Rom. 4:4; Eph. 2:8–9). So the Catholic concept of merit as a necessary condition for obtaining eternal life or ultimate justification is contrary to this clear affirmation of Holy Writ.
It makes works a condition of eternal life. The Council of Trent declared clearly that “those who work well ‘unto the end’ [Matt. 10:22], and who trust in God, life eternal is to be faithfully given to their good works and merit.†Even the new Catechism of the Catholic Church which tends to state doctrine in a way less objectionable to Protestants declares that “the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful†(2008, emphasis added, p. 486). Hence, it is grace plus good works. By contrast the Bible declares clearly and emphatically that “the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord†(Rom. 6:23, emphasis added). Further, in direct opposition to the Catholic position, the Bible guarantees that eternal life is a present possession of those who believe. Jesus said: “I say to you, whoever hears my words and believes in the one who sent me has [present tense] eternal life and will not come into condemnation, but is [currently] passed from death to life†(John 5:24). But according to the Roman Catholic view, one must await a final justification at death to know whether one has eternal life and will not see God’s condemnation. This same truth that eternal life is a present possession of the believer is repeated over and over in Scripture. John records Jesus proclaiming, “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life†(John 3:36), and later adds, “I write these things to you so that you may know that you have eternal life†(1 John 5:13, emphasis added). Catholic dogma excludes Catholics from claiming that they can know with assurance that, if they were to die, they would have eternal life.

In the Gospel of John only one condition is laid down for obtaining eternal life: belief (e.g., John 3:16, 36; 5:24; 20:31). If salvation were not by faith alone then John’s whole message would be misleading, since it states that there is only one condition for salvation when actually there are two: faith plus works. Indeed, John states explicitly that the only “work†necessary for salvation is to believe. When asked, “What can we do to accomplish the works of God?†Jesus replied, “This is the work of God, that you believe in the one he sent†(John 6:29, emphasis added). There simply is nothing else we may do in exchange for our salvation. Jesus did it all (John 19:30; Heb. 10:14).

It makes works of sanctification a condition of ultimate salvation. The Council of Trent affirmed: “When he [Paul] characterizes the eternal reward as ‘the crown of justice which the Lord, the just judge, will render’ (2 Tim. 4, 8), he thereby shows that the good works of the just establish a legal claim to reward on God.†Of course, this “legal†claim is not intrinsic but only because God has promised it. Nonetheless, it is a promise to give us salvation based in part on our works. “If anyone shall say that the good works of the man justified are in such a way the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him who is justified, or that the one justified by the good works, which are done by him through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ (whose living member he is), does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life (if he should die in grace), and also an increase of glory: let him be anathema.†But one cannot work for a gift (Rom. 4:4–5). We work from our salvation but never for it (Gal. 3:11; Eph. 2:8–10). We are not saved by our works but in order to do good works.
Even granting that, for infants, works are not a condition for receiving initial righteousness (= justification), nonetheless, Catholic theology makes works a condition for progressive righteousness (= sanctification). In other words, one cannot receive a right standing before God by which one has the divine promise of salvation (eternal life) without engaging in works of righteousness. But this is precisely what Scripture says is not the case: It is “not because of any righteous deeds that we had done but because of his mercy, he saved us†(Titus 3:5). “It is not from works, so no one may boast,†wrote Paul (Eph. 2:9). To repeat the apostle, “if by grace, it is no longer because of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace†(Rom. 11:6). A right standing before God comes by grace through faith alone! Grace means unmerited favor, and reward based on works is merited. Hence, grace and works are no more compatible than is an unmerited merit! Trent overreacted to Luther, and in so doing, obfuscated the purity and clarity of the gospel of God’s grace.

The Catholic response that not all Protestants agree that one has the promise of heaven on the basis of initial justification alone (Arminians believe people can lose their salvation) misses the mark. For the question is not how we keep salvation after we get it, but how we get it to begin with. It is a fact that some Protestants (evangelicals) do believe like Catholics that one can lose his or her salvation (a belief the authors do not share), but this in no way justifies the Catholic belief that eternal life cannot be obtained without meritorious works. But as we have seen, the Bible makes it clear that eternal life, not just initial (and some say forfeitable) justification, is a present gift that believers possess (Luke 23:42–43; John 3:16; 5:24; Rom. 6:23). So the fact that some Protestants believe people can lose their salvation (eternal life) in no way justifies making works a condition for obtaining this salvation. The fact is that, even once the confusing terminology is cleared up and we understand that by eventual justification Catholics mean what Protestants call justification and sanctification, the official Catholic position is unbiblical. For it insists that works are necessary for salvation; that is, they are a condition for obtaining a right standing before God that entails the promise of heaven. This is precisely what the Reformation rejected.
It confuses working for and working from salvation. Put in traditional terms, Catholicism fails to recognize the important difference between working for salvation and working from salvation. We do not work in order to get salvation; rather, we work because we have already gotten it. God works salvation in us by justification, and by God’s grace we work it out in sanctification (Phil. 2:12–13). But neither justification nor sanctification can be merited by works; they are given by grace. Gifts cannot be worked for, only wages can. As Paul declared, “when one does not work, yet believes in the one who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited for righteousness†(Rom. 4:5).
In spite of the fact that the Catholic understanding of salvation does not logically eliminate forensic justification, it nevertheless obscures it. For when one fails to make a clear distinction between forensic justification and practical sanctification, then the good works Catholics believe are needed for sanctification tend to obscure the fact that works are not needed for justification. Perhaps this is why hundreds of thousands of Catholics are coming to know Christ personally outside of the Catholic church. Indeed, this may be why Catholicism has not produced any of the great evangelists (such as Wesley, Whitfield, Sunday, Moody, and Graham) and has no widely circulated equivalent to “The Four Spiritual Laws†or other simple plan of salvation.

It makes a false distinction between “works†and “works of the law.†The New Testament verses against salvation by works are clearly opposed to the Catholic teaching that salvation can be merited. In order to counter this Roman Catholic scholars have made an artificial distinction between “works of the law†(which they admit are not a condition for salvation) and works (which they insist are a condition of salvation). But contrary to the Catholic claim, Paul’s statements against “works†cannot be limited to only “works of the [Mosaic] law†(such as circumcision) but extend equally to all kinds of meritorious good works, for all such works will in one way or another be works in accordance with God’s law. They would not be good works if they were not in accordance with God’s standard of goodness, namely, his law. Since God is the standard of all righteousness, it follows that all true works of righteousness will be according to his law and nature. It is only our righteousness (= self-righteousness) that is abhorrent in God’s eyes (cf. Isa. 64:6; Rom. 10:3). It makes no difference whether these works are prompted by grace; they are still meritorious works as a condition for eternal life. They are not based on grace and grace alone. That is, part of the basis for obtaining eternal life is meritorious works.
Further, when condemning works for salvation Paul does not limit himself to “works of the law†but sometimes simply refers to “works†or “works of righteousness†(cf. Eph. 2:8–9; Titus 3:5–7). Contrary to the Catholic view, the Ephesians passage is clearly aimed at Gentiles with no suggestion of works of the Jewish law such as circumcision. Nor does the Jew-Gentile conflict diminish the fact that he is speaking to Gentiles about “works†other than those unique to the Jewish law. And the argument offered by some Catholics that the boasting mentioned in Ephesians 2:9 is an indication that it is Jewish boasting (since they boasted about works of the law) is implausible for many reasons. First, unbelieving Jews are not the only ones who boast in their good works; pride is a condition of all fallen creatures, not just Jewish ones. Furthermore, in this context Paul explicitly addresses the issue of Gentiles who were “alienated from the community of Israel†(Eph. 2:11–12), not Jews. Likewise, Titus 3:5–7 does not refer to “works of the law†but simply “works of righteousness.†The fact that the tense being applied to salvation refers to the past does not help the Catholic explanation that this refers only to what Protestants call justification, not to sanctification. Paul is speaking to people who have already been saved and therefore his words would naturally be in the past tense.
Also, the Catholic claim that “works†are sometimes an abbreviation of “works of the law†(e.g., Rom. 3:27–28) fails for several reasons. Even if “works of the law†were sometimes summarized as “works,†it would not mean the reverse is necessarily true. All works of the law are works, but not all works are works of the law.
Further, when Paul is speaking to Gentiles (who, as Rom. 2:14 says, “do not have the [Mosaic] lawâ€Â), he does not speak of them performing works of the Mosaic law as such but simply to “works†(e.g., Eph. 2:8–9). They too are said not to be justified by works (Rom. 3:21–24). To be sure, in the New Testament “works†often arise in the context of circumcision (cf. Rom. 4; Gal. 3). But this is only because that was the specific situation that occasioned Paul’s condemnation of any kind of works deemed necessary for salvation (cf. Acts 15). To limit all of his condemnations of “works†to only works of the Mosaic law is like limiting God’s condemnation of homosexuality in the Old Testament (cf. Lev. 18:22; 20:13) to Jews since these passages occur only in the Jewish law which was written to Jews! And to grant that a moral law (e.g., natural law) exists outside the law of Moses is to grant the Protestant point that “works†here are not just limited to works of the Mosaic law. The truth is that the condemnations are more broadly applicable than the immediate context in which they arose. The same is true of Paul’s condemnation of meritorious “works†as a means of salvation. To limit Paul’s condemnation to works of self-righteousness as opposed to meritorious works is reading into the text a distinction that is not there. What is more, if our works contributed anything to our obtaining salvation, then we would have grounds to boast and would still come under Paul’s condemnation.

Finally, the basic moral character of God expressed in the Ten Commandments is the same as that expressed through the natural law to all people. The fact that someone is not consciously or deliberately doing works according to the law of Moses does not mean that the basic moral standard is not the same. In one sense all moral “works†are “works of the law,†in that they are in accord with the moral principles expressed in the law. This is why the apostle Paul said that “when the Gentiles who do not have the law [of Moses], by nature observe the prescriptions of the law . . . they show that the demands of the law written in their hearts†(Rom. 2:14–15). In the final analysis, when it comes to the moral demands of the law, there is no substantial difference between “works of righteousness†and the “works of the law.†Thus, the Catholic argument that Paul meant the latter but not the former is a formal distinction without a real difference. The simple truth is that no works of any kind merit salvation. Eternal life is a gift received only by faith (John 3:16, 36; 5:24; Rom. 6:23).
It is similar to the error of Galatianism. By insisting that works are not a condition for obtaining initial justification (righteousness) but only for sanctification (progressive righteousness) Catholics do not avoid the charge of soteriological error. Claiming that sanctification is by works, even if justification is not, seems akin to the error that Paul addressed in the Book of Galatians. The Galatian Christians were already justified, or declared righteous, in the forensic sense (or, to use Catholic terminology, they had already received “initial justificationâ€Â). They were “brethren†(Gal. 1:11; 6:1). They were “in Christ†(Gal. 2:4). Otherwise, they would not have been in danger of “falling from grace†(Gal. 5:4) as a way of living the Christian life. They had initial (forensic) justification but were in danger of losing their sanctification (progressive justification).


Paul’s warning to them clearly related to their sanctification. His fear was not that they would lose their initial (forensic) justification but that they would fall back into bondage to the law (Gal. 2:4). Even if Paul did mean that they would lose their justification (as Arminians say) it merely intensifies the problem with the Catholic view, for then the failure to do good works results in the loss of both sanctification and justification. In this indirect sense, failure to do good works is a means of forfeiting one’s (initial) justification too! Paul was afraid they would fall from grace as a means of continuing in the Christian life, not as a means of obtaining it to begin with, since they already had it (Gal. 3:3). To state it another way, if their initial righteousness was given by grace though faith, why should they think they could progress in righteousness in any other way than by grace through faith? In short, he did not want them to replace grace with works as the means of sanctification. This is evident from his pivotal plea: “Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect in the flesh?†(Gal. 3:3 nkjv, emphasis added).

Clearly, the message of Galatians is: You are not only justified by faith alone, but you are also being sanctified by faith alone. For “without faith it is impossible to please him [God]†(Heb. 11:6). Melanchthon articulated this Reformation principle when he argued that “the importance of faith not be restricted to the beginning of justification.†Neither initial righteousness (justification) nor progressive righteousness (sanctification) is conditioned on meritorious works. Rather, both are received by grace through faith apart from any works of righteousness. Failure to understand that sanctification and justification are by grace through faith alone is the error of Galatianism. It seems to be the same error made by the Council of Trent.
It should be noted that Paul’s reference to “false brothers†(pseudadelphos) is not to the believers in Galatia who had adopted their erroneous teaching about needing to keep the law of Moses as a means of sanctification. Paul was referring to false teachers (Judaizers) who were “secretly brought in†from the outside (Gal. 2:4). Since the Galatians had already been justified by faith alone, the danger of the Judaizers’ teaching was that the true believers at Galatia would adopt this view as a means of progressive sanctification. This would have been a serious error, since it would have obscured the necessity of the pure grace of God as the condition for their progressive sanctification, just as it was the condition for their initial justification.

It confuses salvation and service. All the texts cited by Catholics about reward for works are not really speaking about rewards for salvation (whether it be justification or sanctification); they are talking about rewards for service. Justification is by faith alone and not by works (Rom. 4:5). It is true that all who are saved by God’s grace through faith will be rewarded for their works in Christ (1 Cor. 3:10–14; 2 Cor. 5:10). These works, however, have nothing to do with whether we will be in heaven, but only with what status we will have there. As Jesus said, some of the saved will reign over ten cities and others over five (Luke 19:17–19), but all believers will be in his kingdom. The reward-for-works verses all speak of rewards for those who will be in the kingdom, not whether one will be in the kingdom. By contrast, in Roman Catholic theology one’s progressive sanctification does affect whether one will make it to heaven. What a person receives at the moment of initial justification, apart from progressive sanctification, does not suffice to get one into heaven (unless, of course, the person dies immediately after regeneration). In this sense, for Catholics works are necessary for salvation, even if they are works subsequent to initial justification. Actually, works are only necessary for the degree of reward we receive in heaven; they are not a condition for getting into heaven.
Works-for-reward come under sanctification, not justification. They are what we do as a result of being saved, not what we do in order to be saved (i.e., to receive the gift of eternal life). In other words, merit makes sense if understood in the context of those who already are justified before God and simply are working out their salvation with fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), not working for it. Even here the works are not a condition for being sanctified but a manifestation of it. Thus Catholics are left with a de facto denial of the grace that they officially claim is necessary for both justification and sanctification.
It adds works into its concept of faith. Roman Catholic biblical scholars admit “the absence of any reference to sacraments and good works in Paul’s thesis in [Romans 1] 16f.†To this they respond by redefining faith to include works, saying, “Omission causes no difficulty if faith be understood in the sense of dogmatic faith, which accepts all the doctrines of the Gospel as true and obeys all its precepts as divine commandments. For in this faith sacraments and good works are included.†This is a classic example of eisegesis, that is, reading into the text what is not there, indeed, in this case, the exact opposite of what is there. For Paul goes on to say that “when one does not work, yet believes in the one who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness†(Rom. 4:5), and “a person is justified by faith apart from works of the law†(Rom. 3:28). Yet when commenting on this verse A Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture says emphatically that “Another conclusion from [Romans 1:]28 that had e rejected by the Council of Trent is that before justification only faith is necessary as a preparation and no other good works.†Faith, the commentary insists, is only the “immediate†preparation for justification; a “remote†preparation is also necessary, including “a resolution to receive the Sacrament of baptism and to keep the commandments.†In other words, faith is only a necessary initial condition but not a sufficient condition for receiving the gift of salvation. However, the evident meaning of the Romans text (1–4) is that nothing in addition to faith is necessary for salvation (cf. Rom. 1:17; 4:4–5).

In spite of the commendable insistence on the necessity of grace for salvation and the need for explicit faith in adults as a precondition for justification, it is still true that Catholicism teaches that even justification (in adults) is preconditioned on faith plus the resolution to do good works. Hence, the promise to do good works is a condition of initial justification. Thereby sanctification is frontloaded into justification. That is, the promise to live a godly life is a condition for receiving the gift of eternal life. But if this is so then it is not of grace but works. And for Roman Catholics, salvation in the ultimate sense, not just initial justification, always requires faith plus works to obtain eternal life.

Geisler, N. L., & MacKenzie, R[
/b]. E.
 
Solo said:
What happens to a person when he/she is born again?
They become a new creature in Christ ...old things pass away...
There are still conditions you must meet or you will fall away.

1 Corinthians 9:27 - But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

What does he mean by disqualified?
 
Again...How would you interpret this?...

Romans 11:17-22 - And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in." Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, ((if)) you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
 
destiny said:
I would like to agree with you jg, but I can't on this. :sad

How would you interpret this...

Romans 11:17-22 - And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in." Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, ((if)) you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

Destiny
Thats perfectly OK... I would rather someone who normally I am on the same page with disagree with me so we can both learn and iron sharpens Iron. I have been on both sides of the fence even with my theology and bible professors back in the day....OK, just so I am straight, you believe that one can loose his/her salvation right?
I spent the time on this because you are worth it :)

Lets take a look. I will start back a little sooner and end a little later for the sake of Context......

Romans 11:16-24 nkjv
16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in." 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

First lets take a look at three things here....
The wild olive tree are the Gentiles.
The olive tree refers to Israel.
Grafted in: Paul intentionally stretches the analogy of grafting in order to communicate his point that Gentiles have been supernaturally connected to the family of God.

I think it is fair to say, that we agree up to this point, Correct ?

OK, lets continue......
Paul is using a metaphor of the root and the branches.

The branches that were broken off picture the unbelieving portion of the twelve tribes of Israel. Because of their rejection of the Messiah, they were removed from their place of privilege as God’s chosen people. But only some of the branches were removed. A remnant of the nation, including Paul himself, had received the Lord.
The wild olive tree refers to the Gentiles, viewed as one people. They were grafted in to the olive tree.
With them the Gentiles partook of the root and fatness of the olive tree.

The Gentiles share the position of favor that had originally been given to Israel and is still held by the believing remnant of Israel.
In this illustration it is important to see that the main trunk of the olive tree is not Israel, but rather God’s line of privilege down through the centuries. If the trunk were Israel, then you would have the bizarre picture of Israel being broken off from Israel and then grafted back into Israel again.
It is also important to remember that the wild olive branch is not the church but the Gentiles viewed collectively. Otherwise you face the possibility of true believers being cut off from God’s favor. Paul has already shown that this is impossible
Romans 8:38-39 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
When I say that the trunk of the tree is the line of privilege down through the centuries; this is what I mean... God decided to set apart a certain people to occupy a special place of nearness to Himself. They would be set apart from the rest of the world and would have special privileges. How many other nations can boast about what God has done for them....The Red sea, Jericho (by the way the show is pretty cool), all the cool supernatural things has done for Israel....
The nation of Israel was the first to be in this line of privilege. They were God’s ancient, chosen, earthly people. Because of their rejection of the Messiah, some of these branches were broken off and thus lost their position of “favorite son.†Notice they rejected the Christ...They were never saved...The Gentiles were grafted into the olive tree and became partakers with ''believing Jews'' of the root and fatness. The root points back to Abraham, with whom the line of privilege began. The fatness of an olive tree refers to its productivity, that is, to its rich crop of olives and oil derived from them. Here the fatness signifies the privileges that flowed from union with the olive tree. Many people do not know this, but Israel is the 3rd largest producer and exporter of fruit today...
Paul anticipates that the imaginary Gentile with whom he has been conversing will say, “Jewish branches were broken off so that I and other Gentile branches might be grafted in.†Remember as I have said many times, that in Pauline theology, he asks alot of rhetorical questions...
pAUL admits that the statement is partially true. Jewish branches were broken off, and the Gentiles were grafted in. But it was because of the unbelief of Israel and not because the Gentiles had any special claim on God. The Gentiles were grafted in because, as a people, they stood by faith.

This expression, you stand by faith, seems to indicate that Paul is speaking about true believers. But that is not the meaning. The only way in which the Gentiles stood by faith was that, comparatively speaking, they demonstrated more faith than the Jews did. Thus Jesus said to a Gentile centurion, “I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel†. And Paul later said to the Jews at Rome, “Therefore let it be known to you that the salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will hear it. Notice, “they will hear it.†As a people they are more receptive to the gospel today than Israel. To stand here is the opposite of to fall. Israel had fallen from its place of privilege. The Gentiles had been grafted into that place.
But let him who stands beware lest he fall. Gentiles should not be puffed up with pride but should rather fear.
If God did not hesitate to cut off the natural branches from the line of privilege, there is no reason to believe that He would spare the wild olive branches under similar circumstances.

So in the story of the olive tree, we see two great contrasting atributes of God’s character...
His goodness and His severity.
His severity is manifest in the removal of Israel from the favored-nation status.
His goodness is seen in His turning to the Gentiles with the gospel
Bare mind that Paul is not speaking of the church or of individual believers. He is speaking about the Gentiles as such. Nothing can ever separate the Body of Christ from the Head, and nothing can separate a believer from the love of God, but the Gentile peoples can be removed from their present position of special privilege.

Destiny...I hope through this you will see this....Romans 8:38-39 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
If Christ Jesus is your Lord, Your saved as Solo pointed out, then
neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Blessings,
 
jg...
Nothing can ever separate the Body of Christ from the Head, and nothing can separate a believer from the love of God, but the Gentile peoples can be removed from their present position of special privilege.
jg...like they say, thats just your interpretation ;-)

Clearly there are words like 'IF' in these verses that present conditions. I realize within my own heart that if I don't maintain my relationship with the Lord daily, I could fall away...

1 Corinthians 15:1,2 - Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you -- unless you believed in vain.

Colossians 1:22,23 - ...to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight -- if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel..
 
lovely said:
I still just feel like we are all underscoring different facets of grace somehow. The Lord bless all of you.
I had to take a step back and reread some of the posts lovely because that was the exact thought that was on my mind. May be we all have much of common ground but are just looking at things at different points of view.

But I think I have found where our differences do lie.

Faith only camp:
Free gift of Salvation is immediately attained the moment when one gives his heart to Yeshua. Works are a result of attaining this Salvation but are not important for Salvation.

Faith + Works camp:
Give ones heart to Yeshua and continue in the works of love. This walk will bestow the free gift of Salvation when everyone is judged on the last day. The works evidence that ones name is in the lambs book of life. Hence works are important for Salvation.

Both camps agree that Salvation is not a work of our own but it is Yeshua that provides it for us. What we don’t agree on is when this free gift of salvation is given to a believer. Is it after one works towards ones faith and is standing in repentance before the judgment seat or Is it before there is any evidence of fruits of ones faith on earth.

If Salvation is stamped on last day of judgment, then works become important in measuring the walk of a believer if he deserves this gift or not. This allows back sliding and does not support OSAS. If one reads the main criteria why they are being “blotted out of the book of lifeâ€Â, it is not based on “faith†but it is based on “works of overcoming sinâ€Â. So Peter says, workout your salvation with fear and trembling. If it was a one time deal of giving Salvation as soon as a confession is made then a believer is set for life and doesn’t have to worry about works. His faith has already saved him.

If Salvation is stamped on the day a confession of faith is made then, it becomes reverse intuitive to figure out if one is indeed really saved without the evidence of fruits. If the confessor doesn’t bear any fruits then people tend to say “he wasn’t stamped Salvation to begin with / he wasn’t saved in the first placeâ€Â. So for people even in this camp, “works†become unavoidable in measuring the Salvation status of a person.

So I say that it is a dangerous teaching to preach that works do not matter for Salvation even though it is free, because it gives a sense of false security for millions of sisters and brothers in Christ who are in their comfort zone of not seeing the fruits of their faith and are given false assurance that they are OK. It is not just faith that imputes righteousness through Yeshua’s blood but faithfulness.

Yeshua said in Revelation, “return to your first love†and jgredline pointed out that first love is “loving God more than anything†i.e, the first commandment. What is “love� What does Yeshua equate love to? He said if you “love†me, keep my commandments. Love is not just a feeling in ones heart, but actions of keeping the commandments. This is the first love of keeping God’s commandments that the Church of Ephesus was warned not to falter aginst. If that could get the “candle stick†removed from the Church does that mean without keeping the commandments they will still be given this free Salvation?
 
Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noah [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
The Lord put this verse in my heart as I was praying about faith and works. At first I wasn’t sure what days of Noah had to do with faith or works.

Well I think I have an idea now.
What was the escape plan that God gave Noah from death?
A boat.

Was this escape plan given freely to Noah?
Yes.

Did Noah have to have faith in God that there was a flood coming and only a boat could save him and his family?
Yes.

If Noah didn’t work on making the boat would this faith have saved him?
No.

The escape plan from lake of fire is “Salvation through Yeshuaâ€Â. Just because you have the plan on paper in your hand doesn’t mean you are already saved. You need to build the boat with your works of faith. For these indeed are the days of Noah that we live in.
 
destiny said:
They become a new creature in Christ ...old things pass away...
There are still conditions you must meet or you will fall away.

1 Corinthians 9:27 - But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

What does he mean by disqualified?

1 cor 9:24-27 nkjv
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. 25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. 26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

Destiny
Paul is not speaking about Salvation issues here.....but about his credibility.
Let me explain briefly....

Paul disciplined his body, and brought it into subjection so when he preached to others, he himself would not be rejected or disqualified.
In the Christian life, there is a necessity for self-control, for temperance, for discipline, to be above reproach... We must practice self-mastery.
The Apostle Paul realized the dread possibility that after he had preached to others, he himself might be disqualified, in other words he made sure he could not be considered or called a hypocrite....When I was attending a class at Biloa. considerable debate centered on the meaning of this verse. Some hold that it teaches that a person can be saved and then subsequently lost.
This, of course, is in conflict with the general body of teaching in the NT to the effect that no true sheep of Christ will ever perish.
Paul is not speaking here of salvation at all but of service. He is not suggesting that he might ever be lost, but that he might not stand the test as far as his service was concerned and might be rejected for the prize. This interpretation exactly fits the meaning of the word disqualified and the athletic context.

Destiny
According to the chain referance in my bible, lets now take a look at Romans
8:12-13
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors-not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father." 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs-heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

Why does Paul address this to those who were already Christians?
Does he imply that some of them might eventually be lost?
NO
Paul often includes words of warning and self-examination in his Letters, realizing that in every congregation there will be some people who have never been genuinely born again.
The rest of the verse describes what is characteristically true of genuine believers. By the enablement of the Holy Spirit they put to death the deeds of the body. They enjoy eternal life now, and will enter into life in its fullness when they leave this earth.
Another way of describing true believers is to say that they are led by the Spirit of God. Paul is not referring here to spectacular instances of divine guidance in the lives of eminent Christians.He is speaking of what is true of ''all sons of God'' that they are led by the Spirit of God. It is not a question of the degree in which they are yielded to the Holy Spirit, but of a relationship which takes place at the time of conversion.
wELL, I said I would keep it short and instead its been 2.5 hours worth of typing for me...I hope this helps prove my position...
 
Tan
I will re read your post again in a little while, but I can see your heart in what you wrote here and I like what I see....I see a man who is searching for the truth... I can appreciate that....
blessings, jg
 
jg, solo, and golfjack, notice the words (depart from the faith) in this first verse.
You cannot depart from something you never had to start with. Please feel free to explain what these verses are saying if you don't agree.

1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons.

And..
1 Timothy 5:11-13 But refuse the younger widows; for when they have begun to grow wanton against Christ, they desire to marry, having condemnation because they have cast off their first faith.

1 Timothy 6:10 - For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

2 Timothy 2:17,18 - And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they (overthrow the faith of some).
 
reply

Destiny, You proved my point by using 2 Timothy 2:17-18. This refers to Jewish believers that went back to Judiasm. If they denied the resurrection, then they denied Jesus Christ after they were saved. Also, they were all Spirit-filled and lines up with Hebrews 6:4-6.



May God bless, golfjack
 
Re: reply

golfjack said:
Destiny, You proved my point by using 2 Timothy 2:17-18. This refers to Jewish believers that went back to Judiasm. If they denied the resurrection, then they denied Jesus Christ after they were saved. Also, they were all Spirit-filled and lines up with Hebrews 6:4-6.



May God bless, golfjack
Which proves my point...It is possible for a believer to turn their back on the faith. These warnings were written for all of us.

Hebrews 6:4-6 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, becauseto their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

This is very clear
 
Re: reply

destiny said:
Which proves my point...It is possible for a believer to turn their back on the faith. These warnings were written for all of us.

Hebrews 6:4-6 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, becauseto their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

This is very clear

Destiny
I will be back in abit to address these questions and verses...
I can now see where you are coming from..
 
reply

Destiny, I never said a believer couldn't lose their salvation. I said it is extremely hard to do, and has to fulfill all the conditions of Hebrews 6:4-6. Also, I don't believe that the only way to lose salvation is to be not saved in the first place. This doesn't make any sense to me. Do you believe if a believer lives with someone outside of Marriage can lose their salvation? I don't think so. They must actually deny Christ and do it publically.



May God bless, golfjack
 
Re: reply

OK....
One my very best friends who is a theology professor is a stought armenianist / Weslyian as was I at one time. I would guess that he and I have been debating this issue of can one loose his salvation for the past 5 years or so, when I changed my mind...and decided no. That a ''Child of God can't loose his salvation''...He and I have agreed to disagree on this because it is ''not'' a salvation issue.... If your saved your saved....If you loose it you lost it.....

You see, this is my position in all of this and I believe that I did not make my position clear...English is my second language so sometimes i am not very clear..

Jack, HERE is where you and I will disagree and its OK....There appears to be three differant views here.

''I do NOT believe in OSAS'' I believe this is very false and very bad theology. This is what Scares me about the seeker friendly churches and Rick warrens cultic teachings and this is one reason I am not fond of crusades in large stadiums.... To many people believe that by saying the sinners prayer that one is saved...

I have another friend ''Alex'',who has a drinking problem. He is the brother of another pastor friend of mine... This guy knows the scriptures..When I confronted him on his drinking and how he is being verbally abusive to his wife, he told me to mind my own buisness.. I responded to him by telling him, that he best commit his life to the Lord Jesus Christ, repent and be saved by the Grace that is waiting for him... His answer to me was this
''Javs, what the hell are you talking about? I am saved and there is nothing that can seperate me from the love that is Christ Jesus''
I told him to stop using the Lords name in vain
He said to me''See dude, this is why I am a calvinist'', ''
I said what ? He said to me;..''That because I am saved, I can enjoy life more and repent later'' He then told me about this ''hoochi he had on the side'' This time I flat rebuked him in Jesus name....
Come Sunday Morning he was back at his normal Job in the church as he was incharge of putting on plays and skits and was a part of the worship team..... :o
Now I ask you.. Does this person sound like a Christian? Does this person sound like someone who has given his life to Jesus? NO...
This person was in my opinion never saved to begin with....Some in the church when it all came out said that he lost his salvation.. I said, he lost nothing, because he never had it to begin with...


I have another friend ''miguel'' who was going to seminary about 15 years ago and was on fire as much as anybody I had ever seen or known.. One day his marriage fell apart and so did he... He got mixed up in Santeria and witchcraft and was involved for many years doing this horrific sin against God.. ''He was one week away from being full ordained''...I lost track of him up until about 3 years ago. The Lord laid him on my heart and through Google I found him. My Friend Rick (the theology and bible professor) and I went to visit him... Boy was he shocked to see us. :o He said ''WHAT DO U WANT?'' Thats when we found out what he was mixed up in and interupted a Santeria Service... Glory be to God that because of our presence there they were not able to perform the service, because as the black witch and white whitch said'' There is something not right here'' There is an evil spirit here''
The witches saw Ricks and My spirit as evil.... Well after a few months of spiritual warfare and battles, he and the house was free. His new wife who was channeling evil spirits before came to know Christ and Miguel, well praise God!!! he got his full ordanation back 1 year ago.... How awsome is that.. So I ask. Did MIGUEL ever loose his Salvation ? NO. He did not. Why? Because he was in the lambs book of life... He was trully saved to begin with...What if he would have died while in his sin of witchcraft? May I suggest then that my answer would be that he was never trully saved.... He would have heard those words ''I never knew you''....But because he was a prodical son, he was saved... Is his life good now.... nO IT cost him his familly as most still embrace santeria....

I have another story I want to share, I wil do it in a new post.....[/color]
 
Gal 3:5-14 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 just as Abraham "believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." 7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.


The Law Brings a Curse

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them." 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith." 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them."

13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


Being under the curse through trying to be justified by the works of the law is contrasted with being blessed as a believer.... See verse 9. The quotation from Deut. 27:26 says that those who do not keep the whole law are cursed, proving that all are cursed who follow the law, because all fall short of the law's standards
Rom 3:10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

Paul quotes Hab. 2:4 4 "Behold the proud, His soul is not upright in him;
But the just shall live by his faith''. to demonstrate that a person can only be justified through faith. He cites Lev. 18:5 to prove that keeping the law to gain salvation is utterly incompatible with faith.
Lev 18:5 ''You shall therefore keep My statutes and My judgments, which if a man does, he shall live by them: I am the Lord''.


Paul knew that many of his readers would perceive that they were actually under the curse of the law...see verse Gal 3:10 above. For them as for us it is incredibly comforting to know that Christ became that curse for us on the Cross Deut. 21:23.'' his body shall not remain overnight on the tree, but you shall surely bury him that day, so that you do not defile the land which the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance; for he who is hanged is accursed of God.

Lewis.. Thanks because this will go very well in my are u saved thread... Oh and I hope it changes your mind on generational curses. I too believed in them up until about 1 maybe 2 years ago, when I studied every verse in the bible relating to curses....
Blessings,
 
TanNinety wrote: “Faith + Works camp:
Give ones heart to Yeshua and continue in the works of love. This walk will bestow the free gift of Salvation when everyone is judged on the last day. The works evidence that ones name is in the lambs book of life. Hence works are important for Salvation.

Both camps agree that Salvation is not a work of our own but it is Yeshua that provides it for us. What we don’t agree on is when this free gift of salvation is given to a believer. Is it after one works towards ones faith and is standing in repentance before the judgment seat or Is it before there is any evidence of fruits of ones faith on earth.
â€Â

I see it is much simpler than that even, Tan. The free gift is the blood of Christ. His blood is our salvation and without it, we could never hope to be saved. The blood only works for us when we repent and confess our sin. We can only repent of sin that is past. We can’t repent of sin that we haven’t committed yet, since we cannot even know what sin it might be that we might fall into. We can have faith in the blood to remove any sin if we confess it as sin and repent. The reason I can say I am saved today is that I know today I have no sin that I want to keep and enjoy and not repent of, but I cannot be sure that I will always continue to be faithful, that is why I must continue to work out my salvation in fear and trembling. I also know that God is faithful who will not suffer me to be tempted above that which I am able to resist, and is always there helping each person overcome temptation.

The big problem with teaching that we are always saved once we are saved (OSAS) as you pointed out, is that it takes us off our guard and we fall victim to Satan’s temptations. Once we are addicted, it is possible to lose the will to repent and we refuse to let go of some sin to our own destruction, losing rewards and even our eternal life, or as jgredline illustrated, even our loved ones can be lost because of our leading them into sin.

So, simply, the blood is our salvation. Use it or lose it.

.
 
Re: reply

golfjack said:
Fran. Don't you know that a born again Christian has a new created spirit, and that spirit man can never be lost? Why would are recreated spirits need healing?

Because we all continue to sin. As long as we sin, we are in some sort of bondage and risk the possibility of eternal separation from God. Paul speaks of our POTENTIAL as Christians. He is not saying we are now sinless because God waved His magic wand over us. Paul teaches that we CAN fight Satan with Christ's help. However, our free will is never taken away. We always have the ability to reject God, even after "being saved". It doesn't follow that our new created spirit will need to be renewed again later...

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:8-9

John is writing to SAVED CHRISTIANS... Any "saved" person who says they don't sin is a liar. We have an advocate in heaven who continues to intercede for us - because, as Paul says in Romans 7 - we continue to fight the flesh. Tempations have NOT been removed from the "saved" individual.

1 Cor 10:1-12 is one example of several from Paul that compares the "saved" Israelites who later fell to the Christians who make the same claim that you make - and then he warns these people "Beware that you do not fall"...

Why warn Christians if they CANNOT fall? Perseverance is a major theme in Scriptures. Your theology ignores the need for perseverance.

Regards
 
jgredline said:
Francis
This is ''one'' of the many faults and a part of the false teaching of the Catholic Church....I noticed you gave me your opinion, but did not give me a verse that said God will take away from me what he has given me for free...

Please, do not take verses out of context....

God will not pull the rug out from under us - but He certainly CAN take away what was given to us - our eternal inheritance...

You want verses? Oh boy, where do I begin, there are so many... Off the top of my head, how about these?

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Cor 6:9-10

Speaking to Christians who do the same thing...

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Gal 5:19-21

Again, spoken to "saved" Christians...

Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. Neither be ye idolaters, as [were] some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. 1 Cor 10:1-12

You think you will be better off than Jews who falter? Paul says beware lest you suffer the same consequences...

It is] a faithful saying: For if we be dead with [him], we shall also live with [him]: If we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: if we deny [him], he also will deny us: If we believe not, [yet] he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. 2 Tim 2:11-13

Jesus will remain faithful to us - but He will deny us if we deny Him. Again, spoken to "saved' Christians...

Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in [their] heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. Heb 3:7-13

Similar to 1 Cor 10:1-12, the writer of Hebrews uses the Jews escaping Israel as an example for Christians. The freedom won by the Jews, passing through the slavery of Egypt, through water, did not ensure they would enter the promised land. Christians can apply this to themselves - as the writer does, warning us that we, too, being saved from the slavery of sin through the waters of regenation will not see the Promised Land in heaven if we refuse to continue in faith and love of God.

Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. Rom 11: 18-22


Can Paul be any more clearer? Your theology is fantasy, ignoring large chunks of Scriptures that WARN us to continue in Christ, to persevere in faith and love. Your OSAS is false teaching that ignores Scripture's teaching, giving people a false sense of security...

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: 1 Peter 5:8

A senseless warning if I am beyond falling to Satan... I supose we should just ignore any reference to persevering, so we get a warm fuzzy feeling that all is done and we no longer have to worry about falling. Just what the devil would love...

Regards
 
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