TanNinety said:
You have tied my hands behind my back quoting Paul, because I feel the same way about Paul as George does. You see, Paul can be quoted to support faith only and also faith-works doctrine. He appears to be double minded to me in the matter and James says “a double minded person is unstable in all his waysâ€Â. But for the sake of discussion I will try to engage in the scriptures you have provided.
Tan
Well, what really has me troubled here, is that if you feel the same way about Paul as Georges does, then this tells me you don't believe that
2 tim 3:16 nkjv
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,... Since this is the case, then there is nothing that I can say that will help you to see.
But as you said for the sake of discussion, lets take a look at what you have offered here.....
TanNinety said:
At this point I am really tempted to bring up Revelation 2:1-5 and prove that Paul taught contradictory to Yeshua and the rest of the apostles but that would be violating the TOS so I refrain.
Well, lets take a look at what this scripture is saying here....
Rev 2:1-5
"To the angel of the church of Ephesus write,
These things says He who holds the seven stars in His right hand, who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands: 2 "I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars; 3 and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name's sake and have not become weary. 4 Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place-unless you repent.
I know your works is a phrase that appears in each letter, as a statement of recognition from the omniscient, omnipresent Judge.
The first love of the church means ''first in point of time'', or first in importance. The greatest commandment is to "love the Lord your God". Leaving the first love means a great diminishing of the church's initial love, or a turning away from the love of the Lord.
Remember . . . from where you have fallen speaks of a considerable drop-off of love in the Ephesian church. A generation earlier the same church was commended for love (see Eph. 1:15, 16; 6:24), although it was also strongly commanded to grow in love (see Eph. 4:2, 15, 16).
Repent means to change one's thinking. It is clearly connected with changed behavior, as seen in the phrase and do the first works. The Ephesian Christians were to regain the lifestyle that they had before they departed from their first love. To remove your lampstand would be to judge the church quickly or immediately. So again look at the phrase''
I know your works''....By looking at the works of the seven Churches, it is obviouse there is only one true church in the bunch. How do we know this, by their works. Are they saved by their works? NO, They are saved by grace.
Of all those seven churches only the church of bortherly love is saved.....
TanNinety said:
Reread what you posted, where Paul says that “we are his workmanship and are created in Yeshua for good works.
I will steal a verse from the bible that lovely already quoted and this is coming from Paul himself
Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
Tan
I will go through a series of rhetorical questions here...
When we say that salvation is by faith and not by law-keeping, do we imply that the law is worthless and should be disregarded?
Does the gospel wave the law aside as if it had no place?
On the contrary, the gospel establishes the law, and this is how:
The law demands perfect obedience. The penalty for breaking the law must be paid. That penalty is ''DEATH''. If a lawbreaker pays the penalty, he will be lost eternally. The gospel tells how Christ died to pay the penalty of the broken law. He did not treat it as a thing to be ignored. He paid the debt in full..... Now anyone who has broken the law can avail himself of the fact that Christ paid the penalty on his behalf....
Thus the gospel of salvation by faith upholds the law by insisting that its utmost demands must be and have been fully met.....Are you with me so far????????
TanNinety said:
The difference between what you are preaching and what Paul preached? You are saying through faith we don’t have to keep the law of God, but Paul exclaims “GOD FORBIDâ€Â, we have to establish the law. And how do we do it? Not by following the letter but by following the law of love. Does the law of love still produce works? Absolutely. It’s the root of where the works are coming from that differs not the work itself.
No this is not at all true and this is not what I am preaching. I am preaching in perfect harmony with what Paul is preaching.... You see, let me explain something to you. I would also encouarge you to research it for yourself...
Perhaps if you understood even just this little part of Romans you would grasp something, even you do not believe Paul to be inspired
Chapters 1:1–5:11 Justification of the Sinner
Chapters 1:18–3:20 Revelation of the Sin of Man
Chapters 3:21–5:11 Revelation of the Righteousness of God
Chapters 5:12–8:39 Sanctification of the Saint
As you can see there is alot of overlap here....In a nutshell the first 7 chapters of Romans is all about the Law and how no man can keep it.
The law is there to show us how unriteouse we are... When Paul speaks out and crys ''O Wretched man that I am, who will save me'' he is speaking of the law; that even he who kept the law as well as any man could fealt like the chief of sinners..... When he realized it was the spiritual Law AND WAS OVERWHELED BY WHAT JESUS HAD DONE ON THE CROSS, HE BREAKS OUT WITH HIS EXHORTATION'' Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus..... You see paul realized that if not for the cross, he and all of humanity would be doomed to eternal hellfire and torment....So the Law is good to show us how imperfect we are.... Thank Jesus for what he did.....
Now this always brings up another point....
When Jesus said, '' I did not come to abolish the Law, but to full fill it, he was speaking of the ''Spiritual Law'' If you can get a grasp and understand this, then all of a sudden the Sermon on the mount makes sense... You see, if Jesus were speaking literaly then think of how many of us would be blind from plucking out our eyes, or how many murders we would have commited, or how many of us would be at the bottom of a lake with a millstone tied around us....
TanNinety said:
I know you love to pray, jg. Definitely pray over this and if God shows you anything amiss with this post, most definitely point it out to me.
Tan
Thank you and yes, I Love to Pray....I love to fellowship with my God, Jesus Christ.... Believe it or not, I pray for you as well....
One has neither adequate daily food nor clothing. The other has both, but is not willing to share them. Professing great generosity, the latter says to his poor brother, “Go and put on some clothing, and eat a good meal.†But he doesn’t raise a little finger to make this possible. What good are such words? They are positively worthless! They neither satisfy the appetite nor provide warmth for the body. 