Am I saved; or am I fooling myself?

[unred typo]

golfjack wrote: (emphasis mine) Faith without works is dead if one does not put into action what one believes. So, if I want to be saved, I must have faith with coresponding actions of confessing with thy mouth that Jesus is Lord and Savior. This verse is talking about faith and how it is suppose to operate in a Christian's life. We have to have faith to please God, Right? If we don't, then we have dead faith. It won't work. We need to have faith to receive all the blessings of God. If we don't, then our faith has no works, and is dead.

I'm confused, golfjack. Are you saying that our "coresponding actions" are the "confessing with thy mouth that Jesus is Lord and Savior"? What kind of "actions" is that? Does that mean we must obey Christ as Lord or can we just say he is "Lord, Lord" and not do what he says to do?
Your final statements are ambigious too. Are you saying that unless we have faith to receive all God's blessings, our faith is dead? How much faith does it take to be greedy? What does that have to do with taking up our cross and following Christ?
:roll:

 

[golfjack]

reply

My friend, The Bible says we cannot please God without faith. Does it please God if we have faith to be saved? You bet. Does it please God to heal us by our faith? You bet. I suggest you go to a Bible Based Church and get out of that works church you belong to.



May God bless, golfjack

 

[francisdesales]

Re: reply

My friend, The Bible says we cannot please God without faith. Does it please God if we have faith to be saved? You bet. Does it please God to heal us by our faith? You bet. I suggest you go to a Bible Based Church and get out of that works church you belong to.

Golfjack,

So what sort of faith will God save you by? Dead faith? Reread James 2. Even the devil has "faith" that God exists. Faith without love is nothing, certainly not salvific. (1 Cor 13:2)

Regards

 

[TanNinety]

Again if there are any Red Flags, please alert me to them.
If things don't make sense, let me know. I tried to leave as much of my own opinion out of it and used the scriptures.

You have tied my hands behind my back quoting Paul, because I feel the same way about Paul as George does. You see, Paul can be quoted to support faith only and also faith-works doctrine. He appears to be double minded to me in the matter and James says “a double minded person is unstable in all his waysâ€Â. But for the sake of discussion I will try to engage in the scriptures you have provided.

Eph. 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

At this point I am really tempted to bring up Revelation 2:1-5 and prove that Paul taught contradictory to Yeshua and the rest of the apostles but that would be violating the TOS so I refrain.

May be I could illustrate with a simple analogy:
Jeep Commander = Salvation.
Beat up Geo Metro = Life in sin; Death
Car dealership = kingdom of God
Owner of the dealership = God
Drive to car dealership = works of faith; sanctification
Letter in the mail = providence for Salvation
Yeshua = Yeshua

Story: You wanted to buy the Jeep Commander. Time and time again you tried to save money up for it but were never capable to buy it. It was just out of your league. Yeshua, sends you a letter in the mail letting you know the Jeep you’ve always wanted was totally paid for that you can pick it up ASAP. At first you are skeptical, who is this guy sending me this letter. But then the offer is too good, it’s the Jeep you’ve always wanted. So in FAITH you get in your, Geo Metro and drive to the car dealership. The owner of the dealership welcomes you, gets rid of your Geo Metro and hands you the keys to your brand new Jeep Commander.

Now, do you ever boast about how you drove to the car dealership to your friends to attain the Jeep Commander? Is the drive even something to boast about. Was it the drive that bought the Jeep Commander in the first place?

But without the drive would you have ever gotten your Jeep Commander? Even if you had “just faithâ€Â, would you have ever ended up at the dealership without driving there?

Could Paul be saying exactly that? That the drive is nothing to boast about because the Jeep Commander was already paid for by Yeshua and He is all we have to thank. When all we brothers and sisters in Yeshua meet at the dealership who by faith have answered the call in the letter of Yeshua, boast on that day about our brand new Jeep Commanders that we posses? We all know it was paid for by another. Do you think we will boast about the drive? Think you would complain about how bad a traffic you had on your drive or see someone else boast about how wonderfully he drove to get to the dealership? Yet do you think all of us would have gotten there if we didn’t actually got out and drove to the dealership and followed the right driving directions that God gave us in His word?

Reread what you posted, where Paul says that “we are his workmanship and are created in Yeshua for good works.

I will steal a verse from the bible that lovely already quoted and this is coming from Paul himself

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

See the difference between what you are preaching and what Paul preached? You are saying through faith we don’t have to keep the law of God, but Paul exclaims “GOD FORBIDâ€Â, we have to establish the law. And how do we do it? Not by following the letter but by following the law of love. Does the law of love still produce works? Absolutely. It’s the root of where the works are coming from that differs not the work itself.

You raise alarm and say “God forbid†if we teach for people to work towards their faith, but Paul says “God forbid†if anyone tries to void the law because of faith.

I won’t touch the rest of your scriptures because the above pretty much describes and covers the rest of your post. I know you love to pray, jg. Definitely pray over this and if God shows you anything amiss with this post, most definitely point it out to me.

 

[golfjack]

reply

Fran, Any works I could do to be saved are foolishness to God. This is why Jesus came to earth to die on a cross so that our sins maybe forgiven.



May God bless, golfjack

 

[TanNinety]

Re: reply

Fran, Any works I could do to be saved are foolishness to God. This is why Jesus came to earth to die on a cross so that our sins maybe forgiven.



May God bless, golfjack

What do you recommend a homosexual to do? Have faith and think that his trials to act straight are foolishness to God and just accept the grace that can cover any sin? Or does this tickle your "works" bone and say that a homosexual has to work towards his salvation?

If you say "give up sin", you are just yelling out "works" but just with few more fancy words than lovely, unred typo and me, and are thinking that you are trying to prove a different point than what we already have been trying on this thread.

 

[jgredline]

It is true that we are saved by faith alone, but if you have that faith, won't you want to do things. They say "by your fruits, you will know someone". If someone calls himself a Christian and then goes out and lusts after women, gets rich on the backs of the poor, kicks widows in the street or whatever, would that be a good example of being a Christian? I think what James meant is that if we say we are Christians (followers of Jesus) then you should act like it. We are not saved by those works, but we do them because we are saved. :-D

Christine
You are 100% correct and this is what the bible teaches.

Unread, Why don't you see this?

 

[TanNinety]

I think what James meant is that if we say we are Christians (followers of Jesus) then you should act like it. We are not saved by those works, but we do them because we are saved.

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him?

What do you think James' answer to his own question above "have faith no works" would be Christine? Woud a faith that hath not works save? Where does your "faith only saves" fit into the scripture above which ends with an apostle asking a rhetorical question "does faith only save" which is begging for an answer, NO.


Also jg, can you tell me what the "wedding clothes" represent in the parable of the wedding banquet and how one wears them from what Matthew 22:1–14 says?

 

[Drew]

My reading of James 2 leads me to think that the "faith only" simply cannot work. James basically says that a faith without works cannot save a man. I think this is really problematic for the "faith only" position.

Now Ephesians 2:8-9 might seem to strongly support a "faith only" position - Paul says that our salvation is attained by faith and the faith is not "of works".

Could the "of works" be a specific reference to "obedience to the ceremonial law and other related laws"? I am speculating, not having sufficient Biblical knowledge to support such a claim. However, is it not possible that Paul is saying "adherence to the 613 laws in the OT is not sufficient for salvation"? If this is what he is saying, then we need not see the Ephesians text as denying the necessity of works generally in respect to salvation. Paul might be simply saying that "mechanical obedience to the 613 laws" is not not enough to save, and not that no works of any kind are required to save.

I am not sure that a similar "out" is available to "faith only" position in respect to the James text.

 

[lovely]

Hi Tan,

I think that faith and works are shown to be inseparable for the believer...but we know that both are through grace.

For the homosexual, and for all the rest of us who are struggling with our sin, it is a matter of repentance. I think David is a good example of someone who obviously struggled with sin, but was ultimately walking in a heart of repentance...this led to maturity as a believer (fruit bearing?), and I believe...though David didn't know it perhaps...a maintaining of his secure walk in God, by the grace of God. I think only those who walk in holy fear are on a confidant path, basically, and there is no pride in that, only boldness in a heart open in love before God. I imagine we only know at the end who is faithful, and who is not, because some will bear 60 fold, others 80, and even some 100...though I do believe God knows them already.

I am not sure how much you and I disagree on this topic...these threads always keep confused, honestly. I actually felt as if Jack summed it up well a few posts back. It seems like there is something being said that isn't written somehow, and I am missing it.

I think you mentioned presumptuous sins, and that is the deal breaker, I believe. If we are walking in a manner that is unrepentant of our failure to take God at His word, then we are in danger of the Great transgression...we will mature into unbelief on such a path, and bear rotten fruit. It is unbelief, and pride....this leads to unstable ways. I imagine this is why God shows us that when He disciplines us to stay on the foot path of righteousness, it is out of love for us.

For those practicing sin willfully, the matter is one of where there heart is concerning their own sin, is it ultimately a heart of repentance? If we are seeking to justify sin, or saying "it doesn't hurt anyone, so why is it wrong," etc...then we are simply not believing that God calls it sin, not taking Him at His word, and this is lawlessness. This is when we presume to know better than God, and do not want the Truth...this is a perfect atmosphere for one's heart to grow hard, and cold. How many of us are tempted to turn away when we hear a hard truth? Oh that God would give us grace to hear it, and receive it.

Now, I think we can overcome this, by God's grace, because greater is He that is in us than He that is in the world...even if we still struggle...we can ultimately accept the Truth about our sin...we all have to as believers, and love not the world, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life. Really, our prayer should be for God to reveal our sin to us, and to keep us from evil.

I don't judge others, I don't know where they are in their walk, but the bottom line is we need to believe God, and embrace His ways, to be identified with Him. I want to apply the Word, so that I can be a brighter light...but that is slow in coming at times because God has so much to show me still, and I still need for Him to do the work of just showing me how to apply the fundamental principals of Christ in my life every day. Jesus told us that we must deny ourselves, and take up our crosses...this is a sacrificial life, in faith, by His grace, and one I am still aspiring to.

Anyway, my thoughts on the topic. The Lord bless you. Oh, and I pray that you would continue to re-examine the Paul issue.

 

[Solo]

Faith is not obtained by works, but works is obtained by faith. The works that James writes of can only come after faith. It is not the works of man, but the works of God through man.

 

[golfjack]

reply

Good post Lovely. What is dead faith? First, everyone has faith of some kind. There are hundreds of religions in this world, and they all require faith; but they do not all require the faith that justifies. How can I know that my faith is the faith that justifies the sinner? There is only one faith that saves, that is faith in the saving life and work of Christ, the God-Man). All other faith is empty and dead. This is why we cannot save ourselves. It is the works of God that saves.



May God bless, golfjack

 

[jgredline]

jgredline wrote:UnRead
Did you read my post ?
If so, I would appreciate you finding fault with it using scriptures in context.

I guess I missed it since it was addressed to Tan and was basically what you have been saying all along:
jgredline wrote: ThanksTan this is the aspect of the truth that is emphasized in James 2:14–26. When James says that “faith without works is dead,†he does not mean we are saved by faith plus works, but by the kind of faith that results in a life of good works. Works prove the reality of our faith. Paul heartily agrees: we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works.God’s order then is this:
Faithâ€â€Salvationâ€â€Good Worksâ€â€Reward
Faith leads to salvation. Salvation results in good works. Good works will be rewarded by Him.

Actually, Paul and James do agree but not with you. Works are not just a proof that we are saved. Faith without works is no salvation at all. When God told Abraham to leave Ur, Abraham didn't just have faith that God would move him when God was ready. He got his stuff together and left, not knowing whereGod would lead him.That is the faith that works, 'saving faith,' and not 'dead faith.'
James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Unread and really all you folks...
Again, If I am preaching heresy, point me to my mistake and correct me using the scriptures....


Ok, I will break it down for you....
Lets look at the verses in James in context.

James 2:14-24 nkjv
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe-and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Let me start by saying giving a simple explanation and then looking at it verse by verse....
James addresses this section to people who have exercised genuine faith. The issue in this section (2:14) is faith without works (v. 17) versus faith accompanied by works (v. 18). Genuine faith will naturally produce good works; the two complement each other. When someone truly believes in a cause, that belief will change the way that person lives. Works are actions which follow the "royal law" of love (see vv. 8, 15, 16). James is implying in this verse that faith in Christ will demonstrate itself in love for others (see Jesus command to His disciples in John 13:34, 35).

John13:34 nkjv
34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."


OK fOLKS and Unread Typo
Lets start by taking a closer look and what james is saying here.

2:14 James insists that a faith that does not result in good works cannot save. There are two keys which greatly help in the understanding of this verse..... First of all, James does not say “What does it profit ... though a man has faith ... .†Instead he says, What does it profit ... if someone says he has faith. In other words, it is not a question of a man who truly has faith, and yet is not saved. James is describing the man who has nothing but a profession of faith. He says he has faith, but there is nothing about his life that indicates it. This is What Christine and a few others have said.....The second helpful key is brought out in the NASB. There, the verse closes with the question “Can that faith save him?†In other words, can that kind of faith save? If it be asked what kind of faith James is referring to, the answer is found in the first part of the verse. He is speaking about a say-so faith that is not backed up by good works. Such a faith is worthless. It is all words, and nothing else.

Ok. lets move on.....
2:15, 16 The words without deeds is now illustrated. We are introduced to two people.... follow closely as this is a tongue twister One has neither adequate daily food nor clothing. The other has both, but is not willing to share them. Professing great generosity, the latter says to his poor brother, “Go and put on some clothing, and eat a good meal.†But he doesn’t raise a little finger to make this possible. What good are such words? They are positively worthless! They neither satisfy the appetite nor provide warmth for the body.

2:17 Thus also faith by itself if it does not have works, is dead. A faith without works is not real faith at all. It is only a matter of words. James is not saying that we are saved by faith plus works. As I have already said over and over again, to hold such a view would be to dishonor the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ. If we were saved by faith plus works, then there would be ''two saviors''.....Jesus and ourselves.

What James is emphasizing is that we are not saved by a faith of words only but by that kind of faith which results in a life of good works. In other words, works are not the root of salvation but the fruit; they are not the cause but the effect. Calvin put it this way.... “We are saved by faith alone, but not by a faith that is alone.â€Â

2:18 True faith and good works are inseparable. James shows this by giving us a snatch from a debate between two men. The first man, who is genuinely saved, is the speaker. The second professes to have faith, but he does not demonstrate that faith by good works. The first is heard delivering an unanswerable challenge to the other.
To paraphrase the conversation: “Yes,†the first man may correctly and justifiably say, “you say you have faith, but you do not have works to demonstrate it. I claim that faith must be backed up by a life of works. Prove to me that you have faith without a life of good works. You cannot do it. Faith is invisible. The only way others can know you have faith is by a life that demonstrates it. I will show you my faith by my works.†The key to this verse lies in the word show: To show faith apart from works is impossible.
2:19, 20 The debate continues. The first man is still the speaker. A man’s professed faith may be nothing more than mental assent to a well-known fact. Such intellectual agreement involves no committal of the person, and does not produce a transformed life. It is not enough to believe in the existence of God....... True, this is essential, but it is not sufficient. Even the demons believe in the existence of God and they shudder at the thought of their eventual punishment by Him. The demons believe the fact, but they do not surrender to the Person. This is not saving faith. When a person truly believes on the Lord, it involves a commitment of spirit, soul, and body. This commitment in turn results in a changed life. Faith apart from works is head belief, and therefore dead belief.


2:21 Two examples of the faith which works are now given from the OT. They involve Abrahamâ€â€a Jew, and Rahabâ€â€a Gentile. Abraham was justified by works in offering up Isaac his son on the altar. In order to see this truth in its proper perspective, Abraham believed in the Lord, and He counted it to him for righteousness. Here Abraham was justified by believing; in other words, he was justified by faith. It is not till we come to Genesis 22 that we find Abraham offering up his son. It is then that he was justified by works. Get is....This is why context is king.... As soon as Abraham believed in the Lord, he was justified in the sight of God. But then, seven chapters later, God put Abraham’s faith to the test. Abraham demonstrated that it was genuine faith by his willingness to offer up Isaac. His obedience showed that his faith was not merely a head belief, but a heart commitment.

2:24 So in conclusion this is what we get.... that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Again, this does not mean that he was justified by faith plus works.

He was justified by faith ''GOD'', and by works ''Man''.
God justified im the moment he believed. Man says, “Show me the reality of your faith.†The only way to do this is by good works.

Now does this make sense???

 

[TanNinety]

Dear lovely, I don’t think we differ much on our opinions on this matter as much as we think we do. To me, faith and works are inseparable, just as you have stated. I do not see the truth in “faith only saves†or “works only saveâ€Â.

The parable of the wedding banquet where the people on the streets are called to attend is very clear on the importance of works of faith. The people who attend and weren’t dressed in “wedding clothes†were kicked out. They came to the wedding by faith but they didn’t not have the works of righteousness clothing them.

So when one preaches that works do not save, imagine all the brothers and sisters in Christ who have faith but are not producing any fruits. This teaching gives them assurance that everything is ok. And it will be too late to realize that as James points it out that their faith is dead without it producing fruit. Faith alone preaching gives a false sense of security that one can be the branch of body of Christ without bearing fruits, while Yeshua says He will cut down those branches and they will be thrown in fire that do not produce fruit.

Thank you for your prayers about my thoughts on Paul. Even though I am skeptical about his teachings, you can see I presented the truth of the scripture going by Paul’s scripture alone in my above post

Salvation through faith alone as been preached on this thread. Yet when asked a question about why the “faith alone†proponents deny Salvation to the homosexuals based on “they are ot WORKING to be heterosexuals†goes unanswered time and time again!!!

 

[jgredline]

Hello Folks
I have added a few things to this post much in response to Drews view...



God's free gift, comes to us through faith
Eph. 2:8-10
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

These three verses present as clear a statement of the simple plan of salvation as we can find in the Bible. I should have started my OP with these verses as they are loaded.
It all starts with the radical grace of God…..
God takes the initiative in providing Salvation to those who are utterly unworthy of it, on the basis of the Person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

The way we receive the gift of eternal life is through faith. Faith means that man takes his place as a lost, guilty sinner, and receives the Lord Jesus as his only hope of salvation.
Any idea that man can earn or deserve salvation is forever exploded by the words, and that not of yourselves. Dead people can do nothing, and sinners deserve nothing but punishment.
It is the gift of God. A gift is a free and unconditional present. That is the only basis on which God offers salvation. The gift of God is salvation by grace and through faith. It is offered to all people everywhere.

It is not of works, that is, it is not something a person can earn through supposedly meritorious deeds. It cannot be earned, for instance, by:
Confirmation ,Baptism , Church membership, Church attendance
Holy Communion, Trying to keep the Ten Commandments
Living by the Sermon on the Mount , Giving to charity
Being a good neighbor , Living a moral, respectable life
Helping old ladies cross the street

Folks, people are not saved by works. And they are not saved by faith plus works. They are saved through faith alone. The minute you add works of any kind or in any amount as a means of gaining eternal life, salvation is no longer by grace

Rom. 11:6 Tells us ‘’ 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work’’

One reason that works are positively excluded is to prevent human boasting. If anyone could be saved by his works, then he would have reason to boast before God. This is impossible

Rom. 3:27 tells us ‘’ 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.


If anyone could be saved by his own good works, then the death of Christ was unnecessary

Gal. 2:21 Tells us ‘’ 21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."

Folks the reason Jesus died was because there was no other way by which guilty sinners could be saved.
If anyone could be saved by his own good works, then he would be his own savior, and could worship himself. But this would be idolatry, and God forbids it

Ex. 20:3 tells us ‘’ 3 "You shall have no other gods before Me.’’.

Even if someone could be saved through faith in Christ plus his own good works, you would have the impossible situation of two saviorsâ€â€Jesus and the sinner. Christ would then have to share the glory of saviorhood with another, and this He will not do

Isa. 42:8 tells us ‘’ 8 I am the Lord, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images.
.
Finally, if anyone could contribute to his salvation by works, then God would owe it to him. This, too, is impossible. God cannot be indebted to anyone.
Rom. 11:35 tells us ‘’ 35 "Or who has first given to Him And it shall be repaid to him?"

In contrast to works, faith excludes boasting

Rom. 3:27 tells us ‘’ 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.’’

A man has no reason to be proud that he has trusted the Lord. Faith in Him is the most sane, rational, sensible thing a person can do. To trust one’s Creator and Redeemer is only logical and reasonable. If we cannot trust Him, whom can we trust?

Folks, the result of salvation is that we are His workmanshipâ€â€the handiwork of God, not of ourselves. A born-again believer is a masterpiece of God. When we think of the raw materials He has to work with, His achievement is all the more remarkable. Indeed, this masterpiece is nothing less than a new creation through union with Christ, for “if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become newâ€Â

2 Cor. 5:17 tells us 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

And the object of this new creation is found in the phrase, for good works. While it is true that we are not saved by good works, it is equally true that we are saved for good works. Good works are not the root but the fruit. We do not work in order to be saved, but because we are saved.

Tan this is the aspect of the truth that is emphasized in James 2:14–26. When James says that “faith without works is dead,†he does not mean we are saved by faith plus works, but by the kind of faith that results in a life of good works. Works prove the reality of our faith. Paul heartily agrees: we are His workmanship, created in Christ us for good works.

God’s order then is this:
Faithâ€â€Salvationâ€â€Good Worksâ€â€Reward
Faith leads to salvation. Salvation results in good works. Good works will be rewarded by Him.

 

[ChristineES]

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him?

What do you think James' answer to his own question above "have faith no works" would be Christine? Woud a faith that hath not works save? Where does your "faith only saves" fit into the scripture above which ends with an apostle asking a rhetorical question "does faith only save" which is begging for an answer, NO.


Also jg, can you tell me what the "wedding clothes" represent in the parable of the wedding banquet and how one wears them from what Matthew 22:1–14 says?

You are missing the point. If I have faith, I will do works because I am saved.
But the real question seems to be, "what are works?" What do you say works are? Are works obeying Jesus' commandments and prayer or are they something more? Is working at a hospital with AIDS babies more important than only being able to support your family by working at 3 jobs? Does one have to give money to charity when they can barely survive? Is someone is poor and only gives $10.00 less important than the rich man who can give $1,000,000?

 

[jgredline]

You have tied my hands behind my back quoting Paul, because I feel the same way about Paul as George does. You see, Paul can be quoted to support faith only and also faith-works doctrine. He appears to be double minded to me in the matter and James says “a double minded person is unstable in all his waysâ€Â. But for the sake of discussion I will try to engage in the scriptures you have provided.

Tan
Well, what really has me troubled here, is that if you feel the same way about Paul as Georges does, then this tells me you don't believe that
2 tim 3:16 nkjv
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,... Since this is the case, then there is nothing that I can say that will help you to see.
But as you said for the sake of discussion, lets take a look at what you have offered here.....

At this point I am really tempted to bring up Revelation 2:1-5 and prove that Paul taught contradictory to Yeshua and the rest of the apostles but that would be violating the TOS so I refrain.

Well, lets take a look at what this scripture is saying here....
Rev 2:1-5
"To the angel of the church of Ephesus write,

These things says He who holds the seven stars in His right hand, who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands: 2 "I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars; 3 and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name's sake and have not become weary. 4 Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place-unless you repent.



I know your works is a phrase that appears in each letter, as a statement of recognition from the omniscient, omnipresent Judge.
The first love of the church means ''first in point of time'', or first in importance. The greatest commandment is to "love the Lord your God". Leaving the first love means a great diminishing of the church's initial love, or a turning away from the love of the Lord.
Remember . . . from where you have fallen speaks of a considerable drop-off of love in the Ephesian church. A generation earlier the same church was commended for love (see Eph. 1:15, 16; 6:24), although it was also strongly commanded to grow in love (see Eph. 4:2, 15, 16). Repent means to change one's thinking. It is clearly connected with changed behavior, as seen in the phrase and do the first works. The Ephesian Christians were to regain the lifestyle that they had before they departed from their first love. To remove your lampstand would be to judge the church quickly or immediately. So again look at the phrase''
I know your works''....By looking at the works of the seven Churches, it is obviouse there is only one true church in the bunch. How do we know this, by their works. Are they saved by their works? NO, They are saved by grace.
Of all those seven churches only the church of bortherly love is saved.....

Reread what you posted, where Paul says that “we are his workmanship and are created in Yeshua for good works.

I will steal a verse from the bible that lovely already quoted and this is coming from Paul himself

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

Tan
I will go through a series of rhetorical questions here...
When we say that salvation is by faith and not by law-keeping, do we imply that the law is worthless and should be disregarded?

Does the gospel wave the law aside as if it had no place?

On the contrary, the gospel establishes the law, and this is how:
The law demands perfect obedience. The penalty for breaking the law must be paid. That penalty is ''DEATH''. If a lawbreaker pays the penalty, he will be lost eternally. The gospel tells how Christ died to pay the penalty of the broken law. He did not treat it as a thing to be ignored. He paid the debt in full..... Now anyone who has broken the law can avail himself of the fact that Christ paid the penalty on his behalf.... Thus the gospel of salvation by faith upholds the law by insisting that its utmost demands must be and have been fully met.....Are you with me so far????????

The difference between what you are preaching and what Paul preached? You are saying through faith we don’t have to keep the law of God, but Paul exclaims “GOD FORBIDâ€Â, we have to establish the law. And how do we do it? Not by following the letter but by following the law of love. Does the law of love still produce works? Absolutely. It’s the root of where the works are coming from that differs not the work itself.

No this is not at all true and this is not what I am preaching. I am preaching in perfect harmony with what Paul is preaching.... You see, let me explain something to you. I would also encouarge you to research it for yourself...
Perhaps if you understood even just this little part of Romans you would grasp something, even you do not believe Paul to be inspired

Chapters 1:1–5:11 Justification of the Sinner
Chapters 1:18–3:20 Revelation of the Sin of Man
Chapters 3:21–5:11 Revelation of the Righteousness of God
Chapters 5:12–8:39 Sanctification of the Saint

As you can see there is alot of overlap here....In a nutshell the first 7 chapters of Romans is all about the Law and how no man can keep it.
The law is there to show us how unriteouse we are... When Paul speaks out and crys ''O Wretched man that I am, who will save me'' he is speaking of the law; that even he who kept the law as well as any man could fealt like the chief of sinners..... When he realized it was the spiritual Law AND WAS OVERWHELED BY WHAT JESUS HAD DONE ON THE CROSS, HE BREAKS OUT WITH HIS EXHORTATION'' Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus..... You see paul realized that if not for the cross, he and all of humanity would be doomed to eternal hellfire and torment....So the Law is good to show us how imperfect we are.... Thank Jesus for what he did.....

Now this always brings up another point....
When Jesus said, '' I did not come to abolish the Law, but to full fill it, he was speaking of the ''Spiritual Law'' If you can get a grasp and understand this, then all of a sudden the Sermon on the mount makes sense... You see, if Jesus were speaking literaly then think of how many of us would be blind from plucking out our eyes, or how many murders we would have commited, or how many of us would be at the bottom of a lake with a millstone tied around us....

I know you love to pray, jg. Definitely pray over this and if God shows you anything amiss with this post, most definitely point it out to me.

Tan
Thank you and yes, I Love to Pray....I love to fellowship with my God, Jesus Christ.... Believe it or not, I pray for you as well....

 

[jgredline]

Also jg, can you tell me what the "wedding clothes" represent in the parable of the wedding banquet and how one wears them from what Matthew 22:1–14 says?

Tan
I suspect this is a trick question.... :wink: So as I not get snared, I will give you the entire parable in context.....

Matt 22:1-14
22 And Jesus answered and spoke to them again by parables and said: 2 "The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son, 3 and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come. 4 Again, he sent out other servants, saying, Tell those who are invited, "See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding." 5 But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business. 6 And the rest seized his servants, treated them spitefully, and killed them. 7 But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9 Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding. 10 So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests.

11 "But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment. 12 So he said to him, Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment? And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

Tan
First of all. I want to make this very important point.......
The plural parables refers to the parable of the two sons (Matt 21:28), the wicked vinedressers (21:33), and the wedding feast (vv. 1). This story is not the same one related in Luke 14:15. The occasion is different in Luke and some details vary....Now I will address your question....

At this time Jesus was not through torching the chief priests and Pharisees. In a parable of a wedding dinner He pictured his favored Israel as set aside and the despised Gentiles as guests at the table... He likened the kingdom of heaven to a certain king who arranged a marriage feast for his son. The invitation was in two stages.
First, an advance invitation, personally conveyed by servants, which met a flat refusal.
The second invitation announced that the feast was spread. It was treated contemptuously by some, who were too busy and violently by others, who seized, abused, and killed the servants.
The king was so furious that he destroyed those murderers and burned their city. Scrapping the first guest list, he issued a general invitation to all who would come. This time there wasn’t an empty seat in the wedding hall. Among the guests, however, was one who did not have a wedding garment. Challenged on his unfitness to attend, he was speechless. The king ordered him to be cast out into the night, where there would be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Now here is a nugget of info in regards to this parrable...The servents in verse 13 are not the same as the servants in verse 3.
Jesus concluded the parable with the words, “For many are called, but few are chosen.â€Â

OK Tan, As to the meaning of the parable, the king is God and His Son is the Lord Jesus. The wedding feast is an appropriate description of the festive joy which characterizes the kingdom of heaven.

The first stage of the invitation pictures John the Baptist and the twelve disciples graciously inviting Israel to the wedding feast. But the nation refused to accept (iSRAEL). The words, “they were not willing to come†, were climactically dramatized in the crucifixion.
The second stage of the invitation suggests the proclamation of the gospel to the Jews...
The King, justifiably angry with Israel, sent “his armies,†that is, The Roman legions, to destroy Jerusalem and most of its people in a.d. 70. Yes, this is hard to swallow, but it makes sense....especailly when dealing with Israel... and I fear the same for the U.S; ANY WAY, They were “his armies†in the sense that He used them as His instruments to punish Israel. They were His officially even if they did not know Him personally.

Now Israel is set aside nationally and the gospel goes out to the Gentiles, both bad and good, But the reality of each individual who comes is tested. The man without a wedding garment is one who professes to be ready for the kingdom but who has never been clothed in the righteousness of God through the Lord Jesus Christ (2 Cor. 5:21). Actually there was and is no excuse for the man without the wedding garment.

His doom is outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. The weeping IS the suffering of hell for all eternity..... The gnashing of teeth signifies continued hatred and rebellion against God.

Verse 14 refers to the whole parable and not just to the incident of the man without the wedding garment. Many are called, that is, the gospel invitation goes out to many. But few are chosen. Some refuse the invitation, and even of those who respond favorably, some are exposed as false teachers and wolfs in sheeps clothing.... All who respond to the good news are chosen.
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On a second note:
I have mentioned it before and will mention it again... G Campell Morgan has some of the best material ever written on the Gospels... I have his 4 volume set and it has blessed me richly.... They are out of print but sometimes they come out on e bay or used books stores. I got mine for a bargin at $150.00...

http://www.swordofthelord.com/biographi ... mpbell.htm
I owe much of my education on the Gospels to him...

For Romans, Cranfield sets the standard, but it is written in Greek...and this is what I have been studing the past two years...with my bible.
I heard it is now available in english, so I will see about getting one..

 

[freeway]

let me see here,,, you say faith without work is dead.."true" If you believe in Jesus you will have works "true".. "unless your on the cross next to Jesus then apparently you can't have works" but if I read my bible right did not the thief rebuke the second thief sounds like "works" to me.. If you do not have any works,, well maybe you are not a christian?.. but if it take works to get my sorry soul to heaven Iim afraid I could not get enough works outside of "faith" to make it not even if I have a million years to do it in.... this sounds like you say you can loose your salvation.. sorry won't happen... Jesus saves complete.. without works.. works are something we do because we love Jesus and want to do good works...

that my story and I'm sticking to it... no discount price involed.. :wink:

God Bless

 

[jgredline]

Freeway
I agree with you, but to whom are you directing your post to?
My Guess is Unread or Tan, perhaps drew, since they believe in the Gospel of Works. :-?