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An honest Calvinist view of Total Depravity.

Don't understand what?

I understand that Calvinist's readily change the words of scripture to fit their preconceived idea.

God loves the world.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Calvinist's change the world to "elect" to fit their own man made view.

Here is how Calvinist's perceive John 3:16

For God so loved the world elect that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever is predestined to be saved believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. Calvinism 3:16

I fully understand this is the view of a Calvinist.




JLB
You do not understand.

Here is some help.

ELECTION — the gracious and free act of God by which He calls those who become part of His kingdom and special beneficiaries of His love and blessings. The Bible describes the concept of election in three distinct ways. Election sometimes refers to the choice of Israel and the church as a people for special service and privileges. Election may also refer to the choice of a specific individual to some office or to perform some special service. Still other passages of the Bible refer to the election of individuals to be children of God and heirs of eternal life.

Throughout the history of redemption, election has characterized God’s saving activity. He chose and called Abraham from Ur to Canaan, making an everlasting covenant with him and his offspring (Gen. 11:31–12:7; Neh. 9:7; Is. 41:8). God also called Moses to lead His people out of bondage (Ex. 2:24–3:10; Deut. 6:21–23; Ps. 105). He chose Israel from among the nations of the world to be His special covenant people (Deut. 4:37; 7:6–7; Is. 44:1–2).

Election to salvation takes place “in Christ” (Eph. 1:4; 2:10) as a part of God’s purpose for the human race. As part of His eternal plan, God allows us to use our freedom to rebel against Him. Thus it is gracious of God to save those who find salvation through Jesus Christ. It is not unjust of Him not to save everyone, since no one deserves to be saved (Matt. 20:14; Rom. 1:18; 9:15). Election is gracious; it is also unconditional and unmerited (Acts 13:48; Rom. 9:11; 1 Pet. 1:2). It is an expression of the eternal, sovereign will of God who cannot change (Rom. 8:29; 2 Thess. 2:13). Therefore the salvation of the elect is certain (Rom. 8:28, 33).

Election is a necessary condition for salvation; faith is the sufficient condition. The elect inevitably believe, but they do not believe against their will. They have a God-given desire and ability to trust in Christ for salvation (Acts 13:48; 1 Cor. 15:10; Phil. 1:29; 2:13). The elect choose God because He effectively calls them through the proclamation of the gospel of Jesus Christ; they choose Him because He first chose and called them to Himself (Rom. 8:28). That initiating love of God is reflected in Jesus’ statement, “You did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16).

A careful study of the Bible’s doctrine of man cures any romantic notion of a human will that is free to choose for or against God. Those who are slaves to sin and its power (Rom. 6:6) neither understand nor seek after God in and of themselves (Rom. 3:11; John 14:17; 1 Cor. 2:14). Outside of Christ, people are spiritually dead rebels who neither desire to submit to the Lord Jesus Christ nor are able to. Apart from God’s gracious, free, eternal, and sovereign choice of sinners to become His children, none would be saved but would remain forever under His wrath (Rom. 1:18).

Election is not to be a source of complacency (2 Pet. 1:12) or presumption (Rom. 11:19–22) on the part of Christians. They are to make their calling and election certain by growing in godliness (2 Pet. 1:2–11) as they respond with gratitude to God’s electing love (Col. 3:12–17).

God has chosen Christians to bear the image and glory of Christ (Rom. 8:29; 2 Thess. 2:14). They have been elected to be holy in conduct, like Christ (Eph. 1:4). Like Him, they are also to be glorified in their whole being in the life to come (2 Cor. 3:18; Phil. 3:21). The ultimate goal of our election is that we might bring praise and glory to God (Eph. 1:6; Rom. 11:33; 2 Thess. 2:13).

[1]





[1]Nelson's new illustrated Bible dictionary. 1995 (R. F. Youngblood, F. F. Bruce, R. K. Harrison, Thomas Nelson Publishers & Thomas Nelson Publishers, Ed.). Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson, Inc.
 
electedbyhim


Hi can you elaborate on this faith is the sufficient condition please. I never heard of that
Election is a necessary condition for salvation; faith is the sufficient condition. The elect inevitably believe, but they do not believe against their will.


Perhaps the bolded was his point.

I do not know, I cannot speak fro the author on what he wrote.
 
Election is a necessary condition for salvation; faith is the sufficient condition. The elect inevitably believe, but they do not believe against their will.


Perhaps the bolded was his point.

I do not know, I cannot speak fro the author on what he wrote.
I think it's wise to try to stay away from the word condition that brings works to mine
 
You can not see it or believe it

I see and believe that only those who believe in Jesus Christ are saved.


You claim people are saved without ever hearing and believing, yet you can not produce a scripture that says what you claim.


You promote a Christ-less salvation, whereby a person is saved before they have ever heard of Jesus.

Your gospel is “another” gospel, not found in scripture.


Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
Acts 4:12


Only those who hear and believe the Gospel message of Jesus Christ, and thus confess Him as LORD are saved.


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9






JLB
 
John 3:16 the world is the elect


False.

God so loved the world, is what scripture says.

It doesn’t say elect, that is you adding your perspective to scripture.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God
. John 3:16-18

  • He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already

Only those who believe are saved.
 
You do not understand.

Here is some help.

ELECTION — the gracious and free act of God by which He calls those who become part of His kingdom and special beneficiaries of His love and blessings. The Bible describes the concept of election in three distinct ways. Election sometimes refers to the choice of Israel and the church as a people for special service and privileges. Election may also refer to the choice of a specific individual to some office or to perform some special service. Still other passages of the Bible refer to the election of individuals to be children of God and heirs of eternal life.

Throughout the history of redemption, election has characterized God’s saving activity. He chose and called Abraham from Ur to Canaan, making an everlasting covenant with him and his offspring (Gen. 11:31–12:7; Neh. 9:7; Is. 41:8). God also called Moses to lead His people out of bondage (Ex. 2:24–3:10; Deut. 6:21–23; Ps. 105). He chose Israel from among the nations of the world to be His special covenant people (Deut. 4:37; 7:6–7; Is. 44:1–2).

Election to salvation takes place “in Christ” (Eph. 1:4; 2:10) as a part of God’s purpose for the human race. As part of His eternal plan, God allows us to use our freedom to rebel against Him. Thus it is gracious of God to save those who find salvation through Jesus Christ. It is not unjust of Him not to save everyone, since no one deserves to be saved (Matt. 20:14; Rom. 1:18; 9:15). Election is gracious; it is also unconditional and unmerited (Acts 13:48; Rom. 9:11; 1 Pet. 1:2). It is an expression of the eternal, sovereign will of God who cannot change (Rom. 8:29; 2 Thess. 2:13). Therefore the salvation of the elect is certain (Rom. 8:28, 33).

Election is a necessary condition for salvation; faith is the sufficient condition. The elect inevitably believe, but they do not believe against their will. They have a God-given desire and ability to trust in Christ for salvation (Acts 13:48; 1 Cor. 15:10; Phil. 1:29; 2:13). The elect choose God because He effectively calls them through the proclamation of the gospel of Jesus Christ; they choose Him because He first chose and called them to Himself (Rom. 8:28). That initiating love of God is reflected in Jesus’ statement, “You did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16).

A careful study of the Bible’s doctrine of man cures any romantic notion of a human will that is free to choose for or against God. Those who are slaves to sin and its power (Rom. 6:6) neither understand nor seek after God in and of themselves (Rom. 3:11; John 14:17; 1 Cor. 2:14). Outside of Christ, people are spiritually dead rebels who neither desire to submit to the Lord Jesus Christ nor are able to. Apart from God’s gracious, free, eternal, and sovereign choice of sinners to become His children, none would be saved but would remain forever under His wrath (Rom. 1:18).

Election is not to be a source of complacency (2 Pet. 1:12) or presumption (Rom. 11:19–22) on the part of Christians. They are to make their calling and election certain by growing in godliness (2 Pet. 1:2–11) as they respond with gratitude to God’s electing love (Col. 3:12–17).

God has chosen Christians to bear the image and glory of Christ (Rom. 8:29; 2 Thess. 2:14). They have been elected to be holy in conduct, like Christ (Eph. 1:4). Like Him, they are also to be glorified in their whole being in the life to come (2 Cor. 3:18; Phil. 3:21). The ultimate goal of our election is that we might bring praise and glory to God (Eph. 1:6; Rom. 11:33; 2 Thess. 2:13).

[1]





[1]Nelson's new illustrated Bible dictionary. 1995 (R. F. Youngblood, F. F. Bruce, R. K. Harrison, Thomas Nelson Publishers & Thomas Nelson Publishers, Ed.). Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson, Inc.



I understand perfectly that Calvinist’s add they own manmade words and phrases to scripture.

Trying to say “the world” really means the elect, is false doctrine.

Period.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9






JLB
 
I see and believe that only those who believe in Jesus Christ are saved.


You claim people are saved without ever hearing and believing, yet you can not produce a scripture that says what you claim.


You promote a Christ-less salvation, whereby a person is saved before they have ever heard of Jesus.

Your gospel is “another” gospel, not found in scripture.


Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
Acts 4:12


Only those who hear and believe the Gospel message of Jesus Christ, and thus confess Him as LORD are saved.


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9






JLB
I dont see where you see anything
 
False.

God so loved the world, is what scripture says.

It doesn’t say elect, that is you adding your perspective to scripture.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God
. John 3:16-18

  • He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already

Only those who believe are saved.
Yes, Jn 3:16 is the world of the elect or Christs Church Eph 5:25 which are the same as the Elect Eph 1:4
 
I dont see where you see anything
I dont see where you see anything


I agree you don’t see.

As plain as the words of scripture are, you just don’t see.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16

  • For God so loved the world…

The world is lost, and they need a Savior. The way a person is saved is by believing.

Why would a person that s already saved need to be saved.

The world refers to people who are unsaved; people who need salvation.


For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:17


The only way to be saved is by hearing the good news of Jesus Christ, and believing.


God loves the world of sinners who are lost, and desires them to be saved. God sent His Son to die on the cross for the sins of the whole world.




JLB
 
I agree you don’t see.

As plain as the words of scripture are, you just don’t see.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16

  • For God so loved the world…

The world is lost, and they need a Savior. The way a person is saved is by believing.

Why would a person that s already saved need to be saved.

The world refers to people who are unsaved; people who need salvation.


For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:17


The only way to be saved is by hearing the good news of Jesus Christ, and believing.


God loves the world of sinners who are lost, and desires them to be saved. God sent His Son to die on the cross for the sins of the whole world.




JLB
I dont see you believing Jn 3:16-17
 
I dont see you believing Jn 3:16-17


You have chosen to close your eyes to the truth.

For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.” Acts 28:27


You believe a person is already saved before they hear the Gospel.

But you can’t explain how or when this happens.


For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Romans 1:16

  • the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes






JLB
 
You have chosen to close your eyes to the truth.

For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.” Acts 28:27


You believe a person is already saved before they hear the Gospel.

But you can’t explain how or when this happens.


For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Romans 1:16

  • the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes






JLB
I still dont see you believing Jn 3:16-17 nor Rom 1:16
 
I still dont see you believing Jn 3:16-17 nor Rom 1:16
I know you are talking to JLB, but these passages do not teach universalism. They are all qualified by whoever believes. God is saving the world by saving the elect that the Father has Chosen.

Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;
Rom 8:21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

The "world" and the human race will be saved by the glorification of the children of God. The human race in their representatives Rev 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues

All the "whosoevers" and "whoevers" in the world will not contradict that Jesus only laid down His life the His sheep.

Joh_10:11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
Joh_10:15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

And that not everybody is of His sheep.
Joh 10:26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
 
I understand perfectly that Calvinist’s add they own manmade words and phrases to scripture.

Trying to say “the world” really means the elect, is false doctrine.

Period.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9






JLB
Do you believe that all those who have been saved (regenerated) throught history are God's elect?
 
Whatever

I know you are talking to JLB, but these passages do not teach universalism. They are all qualified by whoever believes. God is saving the world by saving the elect that the Father has Chosen.

Actually its whoever is believing, present tense part, God so loved the world, that those who are believing may not perish but be having eternal life. Gods object has been met for loving and giving His Son, it converts people into believers. And yes its about His elect or sheep
 
Sorry for the long delay!

Well, Peter does say they are false teachers. "denying the Lord who bought them" I can see this meaning that they claim to be Christian teachers, so they would be claiming they were bought by the Lord, but they are actually denying him by their lives.
I don't see how it can have such a meaning, and can't see of any other example in the Bible where such a language was used. I believe, Peter would have use the same language as the verse you quoted below and plainly written that they professed to be bought by the Lord, if it is what he meant:
Tit 1:16 They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.


But yet:
1Co 9:27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

2Co 13:5
Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.
For the first verse it could mean a disqualification from getting a reward and only be saved “by fire” (see 1 Cor. 3:12). But for the 2nd verse, because the question revolves on whether Jesus Christ is in the recipients, it should be about if they are saved or not.
According to blueletterbible, the word “disqualified” in both verses means: “not standing the test, not approved”, with the same idea as if someone would test a metal supposed to be gold but finds out that it is not, or that the metal proves to not have the minimal required quality.
 
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