What's new
By:
Filters
Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

An honest Calvinist view of Total Depravity.

brightfame52 said:
Those who are in the flesh can not obey God
Click to expand...

brightfame52 said:
They were regenerate before they believed the Gospel
Click to expand...

The condition the scriptures give for receiving salvation is to believe.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

  • that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Your unscriptural "theory" you are trying to promote to the body of Christ is: a person is born again first, without ever hearing the Gospel, without ever hearing about Jesus Christ and His work on the cross, then sometime later in the future they believe the Gospel.


Here are the questions that I have asked you for years here on this Forum, to which you or anyone else that is a Calvinist, has yet to answer:


  • How does a person become saved without ever hearing of Jesus Christ and what He did for us on the cross?
  • When does a person become saved who has never heard the Gospel:

  1. Before they were born?
  2. In their mothers womb?
  3. After they were born?
  4. Other?

Please clarify your belief for us by answering these question with scripture.
 
JLB said:
The condition the scriptures give for receiving salvation is to believe.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

  • that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Your unscriptural "theory" you are trying to promote to the body of Christ is: a person is born again first, without ever hearing the Gospel, without ever hearing about Jesus Christ and His work on the cross, then sometime later in the future they believe the Gospel.


Here are the questions that I have asked you for years here on this Forum, to which you or anyone else that is a Calvinist, has yet to answer:


  • How does a person become saved without ever hearing of Jesus Christ and what He did for us on the cross?
  • When does a person become saved who has never heard the Gospel:

  1. Before they were born?
  2. In their mothers womb?
  3. After they were born?
  4. Other?

Please clarify your belief for us by answering these question with scripture.
Click to expand...
Those who are in the flesh, meaning unregenerate, having not the Spirit, they cannot please God or obey God Rom 8:7-8

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
 
JLB

The condition the scriptures give for receiving salvation is to believe.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

  • that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Click to expand...

False statement, this scripture says nothing about believing is a condition, its a present tense participle, not a imperative, a command as in something commanded to do.
 
brightfame52 said:
JLB



You mean this one Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
Click to expand...

Jesus is not preaching the Gospel, He is teaching, and showing how to be a true disciple by remaining or continuing in His doctrine.


You have taken this scripture out of it's context, which refers to continuing in His teaching as a true disciple rather than hearing the Gospel.

Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” John 8:31-32


A person must be born again in order to understand His words and be a true disciple.




JLB
 
JLB said:
Jesus is not preaching the Gospel, He is teaching, and showing how to be a true disciple by remaining or continuing in His doctrine.


You have taken this scripture out of it's context, which refers to continuing in His teaching as a true disciple rather than hearing the Gospel.

Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” John 8:31-32


A person must be born again in order to understand His words and be a true disciple.




JLB
Click to expand...
Jesus is the Gospel, Now who according to Jesus hears Gods word ? Jn 8:47
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. Heareth and hear - Hearing with spiritual understandingWords (rhema) - Discourse, declaration, command, or promise Here Jesus tells them plainly that the reason that the Jews will not hear the words of God is because they do not possess the spiritual ears which accompanies a person who is saved. The only way we can hear and truly understand the Gospel is by being saved and when a person is saved, they belong to God. These Jews were unsaved and did not belong to God because three verses back Jesus told them plainly that they were of their father the devil. Those who are in Satan’s camp cannot hear the word of God, one must be qualified to hear them and that qualification comes through salvation in Christ alone. This also brings up another point that those who think they can work their way to Heaven will not be able to. The ones who work are hearing the word of God physically but they are not understanding it spiritually which opens up the true meanings of Scripture.
Click to expand...

John 8:46-50

www.scionofzion.com
 
brightfame52 said:
JLB



False statement, this scripture says nothing about believing is a condition, its a present tense participle, not a imperative, a command as in something commanded to do.
Click to expand...

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Jesus absolutely states that WHOEVER BELIEVES in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

Only those who BELIEVE are saved.

  • He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36

Jesus doesn't mention the elect. He says WHOEVER believes in Him.

The contextual reference to the world. God loves the lost people of the world and wants them to be saved by BELIEVING in His Son Jesus Christ.

  • For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son


Here are the questions that I have asked you for years here on this Forum, to which you or anyone else that is a Calvinist, has yet to answer:


  • How does a person become saved without ever hearing of Jesus Christ and what He did for us on the cross?
  • When does a person become saved who has never heard the Gospel:

  1. Before they were born?
  2. In their mothers womb?
  3. After they were born?
  4. Other?

Please clarify your belief for us by answering these question with scripture.
 
brightfame52 said:
Jesus is the Gospel, Now who according to Jesus hears Gods word ? Jn 8:47
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
Click to expand...

Here is an example of Peter preaching the Gospel in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost -

“Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”
Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:36-38

Do you believe this crowd of Jews who were responsible for crucifying Jesus Christ were already saved?




JLB
 
brightfame52 said:
Jesus is the Gospel, Now who according to Jesus hears Gods word ? Jn 8:47
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.


John 8:46-50

www.scionofzion.com
Click to expand...


Jesus was teaching His doctrine, not preaching the Gospel.


No one can hear and understand His teaching, and therefore be His disciple unless they are born again, regenerated.
 
JLB said:
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Jesus absolutely states that WHOEVER BELIEVES in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

Only those who BELIEVE are saved.

  • He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36

Jesus doesn't mention the elect. He says WHOEVER believes in Him.

The contextual reference to the world. God loves the lost people of the world and wants them to be saved by BELIEVING in His Son Jesus Christ.

  • For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son


Here are the questions that I have asked you for years here on this Forum, to which you or anyone else that is a Calvinist, has yet to answer:


  • How does a person become saved without ever hearing of Jesus Christ and what He did for us on the cross?
  • When does a person become saved who has never heard the Gospel:

  1. Before they were born?
  2. In their mothers womb?
  3. After they were born?
  4. Other?

Please clarify your belief for us by answering these question with scripture.
Click to expand...
People have always corrupted the word believe in Jn 3:16 and other places, its not a command, but a present tense participle, " those that are believing" is more descriptive, not a condition. Thats corrupting the word of God
 
JLB said:
Jesus was teaching His doctrine, not preaching the Gospel.


No one can hear and understand His teaching, and therefore be His disciple unless they are born again, regenerated.
Click to expand...
Yes He was teaching, and He taught who it is that Hears the word of God
 
brightfame52 said:
People have always corrupted the word believe in Jn 3:16 and other places, its not a command, but a present tense participle, " those that are believing" is more descriptive, not a condition. Thats corrupting the word of God
Click to expand...



Jesus words are the truth.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


Do you believe God loves the world and wants them to be saved?


Do you believe that WHOEVER BELIEVES IN JESUS CHRIST will not perish but have eternal life?





JLB
 
JLB said:
Jesus words are the truth.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


Do you believe God loves the world and wants them to be saved?


Do you believe that WHOEVER BELIEVES IN JESUS CHRIST will not perish but have eternal life?





JLB
Click to expand...
You are corrupting Jn 3:16, believing is not a command, but a description
 
brightfame52 said:
One must be born of God to hear Gods word, the Gospel is the word of God
Click to expand...

Please show us the scripture that says a person is saved before the hear the Gospel.

That will clear up this discussion.
 
JLB said:
Yes.


A disciple must first be born again so they can hear His teaching and follow Him.
Click to expand...
BTW Preaching and Teaching the Gospel are relatively the same lol Jesus gave His commission to the disciples to go preach and said Matt 28:19


19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

In Mark He said Mk 16:15

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Lk 24 47

47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Repentance is a doctrine, teaching of the Gospel Heb 6:1-2

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

So you are grasping at straws friend
 
JLB said:
Please show us the scripture that says a person is saved before the hear the Gospel.

That will clear up this discussion.
Click to expand...
Please show us the scripture that says a person is not saved until after they hear the Gospel.

In the mean time I will show you a scripture that says the Gospel is hid to them that are lost resulting in them believing not. 2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
 
JLB said:
They obviously had a noble heart before they were saved.
You do understand this right?
Click to expand...
Yes, God takes their heart of stone out and gives them a new heart of flesh and then they are capable of accepting the gospel and being saved. Those were simply the elect.
 
brightfame52 said:
BTW Preaching and Teaching the Gospel are relatively the same lol Jesus gave His commission to the disciples to go preach and said Matt 28:19
Click to expand...

brightfame52 said:
BTW Preaching and Teaching the Gospel are relatively the same lol Jesus gave His commission to the disciples to go preach and said Matt 28:19


19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

In Mark He said Mk 16:15

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Lk 24 47

47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Repentance is a doctrine, teaching of the Gospel Heb 6:1-2

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

So you are grasping at straws friend
Click to expand...

So far you have yet to answer my simple question nor provide any scripture for your theory.

Here are the questions that I have asked you for years here on this Forum, to which you or anyone else that is a Calvinist, has yet to answer:


  • How does a person become saved without ever hearing of Jesus Christ and what He did for us on the cross?
  • When does a person become saved who has never heard the Gospel:

  1. Before they were born?
  2. In their mothers womb?
  3. After they were born?
  4. Other?

Please clarify your belief for us by answering these question with scripture.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top