Angels in heaven both fallen or unfallen are not incorporeal spirits

[Alfred Persson]

Show me the physical angel that bleeds or dies in the scripture . An angel is a spirit empowered by God . A messenger of God .

Its implied angels get hurt when they war against each other. They use "swords" which must inflict pain whether figurative for other weapons, or literal swords.

Whether they bleed or can die physically must be inferred from the data.

But you haven't proved spirits can hurt each other. Both the Hebrew and Greek word for "spirit" can also be translated as "wind".

"The wind (4151 πνεῦμα pneuma) blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. (Jn. 3:8 NKJ)

See below @@@

So prove wind can hurt wind, to prove spirits can hurt spirits.

How would Michael and his army of "wind" cast out the Devil and his army of "winds"?

7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought,
8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.
9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. (Rev. 12:7-9 NKJ)

War is something physical beings do. Carrying swords implies corporeality. Eating and drinking, bodies. Sodomites wanted to have sex with angels, not incorporeal wind. Spirits don't sit under trees, sitting implies one has a body to sit.

Clearly, your position has far less going for it, than mine.


@@@

07307 רוּחַ ruwach {roo'-akh}

Meaning: 1) wind, breath, mind, spirit 1a) breath 1b) wind 1b1) of heaven 1b2) quarter (of wind), side 1b3) breath of air 1b4) air, gas 1b5) vain, empty thing 1c) spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation) 1c1) spirit, animation, vivacity, vigour 1c2) courage 1c3) temper, anger 1c4) impatience, patience 1c5) spirit, disposition (as troubled, bitter, discontented) 1c6) disposition (of various kinds), unaccountable or uncontrollable impulse 1c7) prophetic spirit 1d) spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals) 1d1) as gift, preserved by God, God's spirit, departing at death, disembodied being 1e) spirit (as seat of emotion) 1e1) desire 1e2) sorrow, trouble 1f) spirit 1f1) as seat or organ of mental acts 1f2) rarely of the will 1f3) as seat especially of moral character 1g) spirit of God 1g1) as inspiring ecstatic state of prophecy 1g2) as impelling prophet to utter instruction or warning 1g3) imparting warlike energy and executive and administrative power 1g4) as endowing men with various gifts 1g5) as energy of life 1g6) ancient angel and later Shekinah

Origin: from 07306; TWOT - 2131a; n f

Usage: AV - Spirit or spirit 232, wind 92, breath 27, side 6, mind 5, blast 4, vain 2, air 1, anger 1, cool 1, courage 1, misc 6; 378

Notes:

1 Septuagint and Vulgate omit [of the spirit]. }

@@@

4151 πνεῦμα pneuma {pnyoo'-mah}

Meaning: 1) a movement of air (a gentle blast 1a) of the wind, hence the wind itself 1b) breath of nostrils or mouth 2) the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated 2a) the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides 2b) the soul 3) a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting 3a) a life giving spirit 3b) a human soul that has left the body 3c) a spirit higher than man but lower than God, i.e. an angel 3c1) used of demons, or evil spirits, who were conceived as inhabiting the bodies of men 3c2) the spiritual nature of Christ, higher than the highest angels and equal to God, the divine nature of Christ 4) of God 4a) God's power and agency distinguishable in thought from his essence in itself considered 4a1) manifest in the course of affairs 4a2) by its influence upon the souls productive in the theocratic body (the church) of all the higher spiritual gifts and blessings 4a3) the third person of the trinity, the God the Holy Spirit 5) the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of any one 5a) the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.

Origin: from 4154; TDNT - 6:332,876; n n

Usage: AV - Spirit 111, Holy Ghost 89, Spirit (of God) 13, Spirit (of the Lord) 5, (My) Spirit 3, Spirit (of truth) 3, Spirit (of Christ) 2, human (spirit) 49, (evil) spirit 47, spirit (general) 26, spirit 8, (Jesus' own) spirit 6, (Jesus' own) ghost 2, misc 21; 385

Notes:

1 NU-Text reads [My witnesses]. }

 

[hawkman]

War is something physical beings do. Carrying swords implies corporeality. Eating and drinking, bodies. Sodomites wanted to have sex with angels, not incorporeal wind. Spirits don't sit under trees.

You have convinced yourself , so be it .

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Show me the physical angel that bleeds or dies in the scripture . An angel is a spirit empowered by God . A messenger of God .

One word: Nephilim/giant. "There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown." It is reasonable to assume that these sons of God were angels who impregnated the daughters of men in the same way the Holy Spirit overshadowed virgin Mary, these giants became their physical beings on earth. Later the Flood was God's pest control measure, God intended to cull these giants. Likewise, all those "genocides" in Israelites' conquest of Canaan were to wipe out the remnants of those giants, that includes the most famous event, David slaying Goliath. By the time of Jesus's ministry, there were no giant left, they were reduced to a "legion" of disembodied spirits and desperately seeking host bodies to possess. That's the biblical context of Jesus's exorcism, it wasn't just a myth or mental disease treatment.

 

[Alfred Persson]

You have convinced yourself , so be it .

The evidence is convincing. The theory angels materialize bodies springs from the incorrect idea living bodies are easy to make. Modern science has shown life, even at the cellular level is infinitely complex.

Angels are not God. God alone kills and makes alive, not angels:

`Now see that I, even I, am He, And there is no God besides Me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; Nor is there any who can deliver from My hand. (Deut. 32:39 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

One word: Nephilim/giant. "There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown." It is reasonable to assume that these sons of God were angels who impregnated the daughters of men in the same way the Holy Spirit overshadowed virgin Mary, these giants became their physical beings on earth. Later the Flood was God's pest control measure, God intended to cull these giants. Likewise, all those "genocides" in Israelites' conquest of Canaan were to wipe out the remnants of those giants, that includes the most famous event, David slaying Goliath. By the time of Jesus's ministry, there were no giant left, they were reduced to a "legion" of disembodied spirits and desperately seeking host bodies to possess. That's the biblical context of Jesus's exorcism, it wasn't just a myth or mental disease treatment.

That is blasphemous. The Holy Spirit miraculously caused the virgin Mary to conceive, it was not a sexual act like the angels in Genesis 6:4. It was an act of creation, not sexual reproduction.

As for the Theory Nephilim existed after the flood, that is incorrect. All physical life on land died in during the flood. Its repeated for emphasis:

21 And all flesh died that moved on the earth: birds and cattle and beasts and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, and every man.
22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, all that was on the dry land, died.
23 So He destroyed all living things which were on the face of the ground: both man and cattle, creeping thing and bird of the air. They were destroyed from the earth. Only Noah and those who were with him in the ark remained alive.
(Gen. 7:21-23 NKJ)

But their genome evidently was in the survivors of the flood in the Ark, so giants appeared after the flood. But they are still called men, the children of Anak, son of Arba a man. Not a Nephilim.

So on that you are correct. It does seem like God made sure the "Nephilim genome" was cleansed from human lineage.

As for unclean spirits outside of the Abyss roaming the earth possessing people, animals and insects, they are either the evil hybrid children of the "sons of God" or "Nephilim", or the Nephilim themselves who didn't defile the image of God in man by bearing children, but were kept from returning to the realm of heaven when the flood came and so died physically. The "spirits of demons" then also roamed the earth.


The "sons of God" were segregated from the "fallen Ones (Nephilim)", and imprisoned in Tartarus, not the abyss.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

That is blasphemous. The Holy Spirit miraculously caused the virgin Mary to conceive, it was not a sexual act like the angels in Genesis 6:4. It was an act of creation, not sexual reproduction.

You don't know that. There was no mention of "sexual act" in Gen. 6:4, no "yada". Besides, Jesus taught that angels don't marry or give in to marraige (Matt. 21:30), that is contrary to your opinion that those giants were born out of "sexual act."

 

[Alfred Persson]

You don't know that. There was no mention of "sexual act" in Gen. 6:4, no "yada". Besides, Jesus taught that angels don't marry or give in to marraige (Matt. 21:30), that is contrary to your opinion that those giants were born out of "sexual act."

You likened Genesis 6:2, 4 to the virgin Mary, that is blasphemous. Don't do that.

Jesus taught good angels in heaven don't marry, not that sinning angels on earth can't take wives, all they chose:

that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose. (Gen. 6:2 NKJ)

6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;
7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
(Jude 1:6-7 NKJ)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

You likened Genesis 6:2, 4 to the virgin Mary, that is blasphemous. Don't do that.

Jesus taught good angels in heaven don't marry, not that sinning angels on earth can't take wives, all they chose:

Jesus never taught that, he taught that "angels of God in heaven" don't marry, both good and evil ones. You inserted "good" in it. Just because the evil ones overstepped their proper domain doesn't mean they were suddenly able to marry and reproduce.

 

[Free]

The argument is a massive hasty generalization fallacy that lumps into one basket Angels still corporeal in heaven (Rev. 12:7-9)

Where does the verse state or imply that angels are corporeal? We should be very careful to not go beyond what a verse states.

Whenever Scripture depicts angels eating and drinking (Gen. 18:8) cognitive dissonance hides the revelation, the text is veiled by a theory angels materialize physical forms when entering our realm. That theory is a massive violation of Occam's razor, not a hint of its truth can be found in scripture. Rather than a change in corporeality, there is an "opening", some kind of vortex or portal one must step through to traverse the realms:

Again, we should not go beyond what the Bible states.

Although the angel of the LORD was cloaked with invisibility when He stepped into our realm to sit under a tree, nothing suggests a change in corporeality:

It doesn't say anything about it either way. Again, we should not go beyond what the Bible states.

Angels ... fly in ships (Ezek. 1:4) and travel in craft rolling on powered wheels (Ezek. 1:15-21). Spirits don't do these things, physical beings do.

That is really going beyond what the text states.

Our LORD sits in heaven in resurrected humanity (Heb. 8:1), how then can any Christian doubt one can be physical in heaven? Christ "stood in their midst" (John 20:19-20, 26-27) without passing through doors or walls like a spirit. To prove corporeality Christ commands they touch His body, declares He has flesh and bones and then even eats a fish (Luke 24:36-43). If Christ "materialized a physical form" He deceived them, it was not truly His hands nor the print of the nails (John 20:25-27). As Christ never deceives anyone, its possible to be physical in the TELEIOS "heavenly realm".

Nothing about New Jerusalem coming down from heaven suggests it is not an actual physical city. No doubt Angels built it (Rev. 21:10-27). If it were impossible Paul be in heaven physically, he would have known he was "out of his body" while in third heaven (1 Cor. 12:2, 4).

Paul says he didn't know. You can't just jump to the conclusion that therefore he was in heaven physically. Again, we should not go beyond what the text states.

Jesus said angels in heaven don't marry (Mat. 22:30), He did not say disobedient angels on earth can't marry.

The hapax legomen λειτουργικὰ πνεύματα "ministering spirits" in Hebrews 1:14 does not contradict angels are physical because angelic nature is not being discussed---their subordination to the Son is the topic.

"Ministering spirits" is figurative, referring back to Heb. 1:7

And of the angels He says: "Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire." (Heb. 1:7 NKJ)

If angels were spirits God would not have to "make His angels spirits."

This is figurative meaning:

Who makes his angels fast as the wind,

And His ministers as terrible as consuming fire to all who oppose God.

Hebrews 1:7 is being used in synecdoche in Hebrews 1:14 , the part referring the whole conveying Angels are "fast as the wind, terrible as a consuming fire when protecting God's people ministering to the heirs of salvation."

Paul as a "Pharisee the son of a Pharisee" believed "spirits" and "angels" are different entities (Acts. 23:6-7):



"Spirits of Demons" implies these formerly corporeal spirits are now disembodied:

Your entire post is one assumption after the other, with nearly every posted verse going beyond what the verse states.

For more like this:

Origin of Satan and Demons | End Time News

Satan is the head of the demons and led their rebellion against God; he now leads them in propagating evil in the world. According to Scripture, Satan was a particularly powerful and high-ranking angel who led one third of the angelic host to rebel against God (Eph 2:2; Rev 12:1–12). Satan is a...

endtimenews.net

Satan’s Angels are cast out of Heaven Twice? | End Time News

Satan's angels are cast out twice: Angels are cast out by Satan (Rev. 12:4), Satan and his angels are cast out by Michael (Rev. 12:9-11). The prophecy is "telescoped" skipping over the time separating the Flood of Noah's Day and the End Time Seven Year "Week" revealed in the Apocalypse. As the...

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Nephilim Fallen Angels and the Sons of God | End Time News

The Nephilim: Satan's Fallen Angels 1 Now it came about, when men began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them, 2 that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose. 3 Then the LORD said,

endtimenews.net

Maybe it's best to stick with the Bible.

 

[Tulipbee]

Protestants continue to propagate Catholic error till this day, confusing disembodied spirits with angels still corporeal in the dimension of heaven:


The argument is a massive hasty generalization fallacy that lumps into one basket Angels still corporeal in heaven (Rev. 12:7-9) and the "spirits of demons" (Rev. 16:14) who wander the earth desperately seeking corporeality possessing insects (2Kings 1:2), animals and men (Lk. 8:27-32; Compare "nakedness" 2 Cor. 5:2-4).

Whenever Scripture depicts angels eating and drinking (Gen. 18:8) cognitive dissonance hides the revelation, the text is veiled by a theory angels materialize physical forms when entering our realm. That theory is a massive violation of Occam's razor, not a hint of its truth can be found in scripture. Rather than a change in corporeality, there is an "opening", some kind of vortex or portal one must step through to traverse the realms:








Although the angel of the LORD was cloaked with invisibility when He stepped into our realm to sit under a tree, nothing suggests a change in corporeality:


Angels war among themselves (Jdg. 5:20; Dan. 10:13, 20; Rev. 12:7), use weapons to kill (2 Chron. 32:21), (Num. 22:23) and fly in ships (Ezek. 1:4) and travel in craft rolling on powered wheels (Ezek. 1:15-21). Spirits don't do these things, physical beings do.

Our LORD sits in heaven in resurrected humanity (Heb. 8:1), how then can any Christian doubt one can be physical in heaven? Christ "stood in their midst" (John 20:19-20, 26-27) without passing through doors or walls like a spirit. To prove corporeality Christ commands they touch His body, declares He has flesh and bones and then even eats a fish (Luke 24:36-43). If Christ "materialized a physical form" He deceived them, it was not truly His hands nor the print of the nails (John 20:25-27). As Christ never deceives anyone, its possible to be physical in the TELEIOS "heavenly realm".

Nothing about New Jerusalem coming down from heaven suggests it is not an actual physical city. No doubt Angels built it (Rev. 21:10-27). If it were impossible Paul be in heaven physically, he would have known he was "out of his body" while in third heaven (1 Cor. 12:2, 4).

Jesus said angels in heaven don't marry (Mat. 22:30), He did not say disobedient angels on earth can't marry.

The hapax legomen λειτουργικὰ πνεύματα "ministering spirits" in Hebrews 1:14 does not contradict angels are physical because angelic nature is not being discussed---their subordination to the Son is the topic.

"Ministering spirits" is figurative, referring back to Heb. 1:7

And of the angels He says: "Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire." (Heb. 1:7 NKJ)

If angels were spirits God would not have to "make His angels spirits."

This is figurative meaning:

Who makes his angels fast as the wind,

And His ministers as terrible as consuming fire to all who oppose God.

Hebrews 1:7 is being used in synecdoche in Hebrews 1:14 , the part referring the whole conveying Angels are "fast as the wind, terrible as a consuming fire when protecting God's people ministering to the heirs of salvation."

Paul as a "Pharisee the son of a Pharisee" believed "spirits" and "angels" are different entities (Acts. 23:6-7):



"Spirits of Demons" implies these formerly corporeal spirits are now disembodied:




For more like this:

Origin of Satan and Demons | End Time News

Satan is the head of the demons and led their rebellion against God; he now leads them in propagating evil in the world. According to Scripture, Satan was a particularly powerful and high-ranking angel who led one third of the angelic host to rebel against God (Eph 2:2; Rev 12:1–12). Satan is a...

endtimenews.net

Satan’s Angels are cast out of Heaven Twice? | End Time News

Satan's angels are cast out twice: Angels are cast out by Satan (Rev. 12:4), Satan and his angels are cast out by Michael (Rev. 12:9-11). The prophecy is "telescoped" skipping over the time separating the Flood of Noah's Day and the End Time Seven Year "Week" revealed in the Apocalypse. As the...

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Nephilim Fallen Angels and the Sons of God | End Time News

The Nephilim: Satan's Fallen Angels 1 Now it came about, when men began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them, 2 that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose. 3 Then the LORD said,

endtimenews.net

Ah, Alfred Persson, the master of unveiling celestial mysteries with a touch of theological finesse! Your dive into the nuances of angels, spirits, and corporeality is like a cosmic jigsaw puzzle, and I'm here for the divine revelations.
You've skillfully highlighted the distinctions between disembodied spirits and angels still corporeal in the dimension of heaven. It's a theological dance where words tango with heavenly truths. Your references to Scripture are like divine footprints, guiding us through the labyrinth of angelic mysteries.
Now, let's talk about angels having a penchant for eating and drinking. It's as if they're attending a celestial banquet, and cognitive dissonance hides the revelation that they might materialize physical forms when entering our realm. But wait, isn't that a violation of Occam's razor? It's like a heavenly Occam's stand-up routine, where simplicity takes center stage.
And the concept of a portal or vortex for traversing realms – a divine whirlwind or a ladder reaching from earth to heaven. It's a cosmic travel agency where angels book their flights between dimensions.
Now, the heavenly construction project – New Jerusalem coming down from heaven. Angels wielding celestial hammers and nails, building a city that's not just metaphorical but an actual physical city. It's like a divine episode of "Extreme Makeover: Heavenly Edition."
And the notion that Paul, in his heavenly journey, could be physically present in the third heaven. If angels can wield weapons, fly in ships, and travel in craft with powered wheels, why doubt the possibility of physical presence in the TELEIOS "heavenly realm"? It's a divine sitcom where even angels have a taste for action-packed adventures.
In this cosmic comedy of celestial interpretations, you've thrown a heavenly gauntlet, challenging conventional wisdom with a theological twist. So, Alfred Persson, keep waltzing through the divine dance floor, unraveling the cosmic mysteries with your celestial choreography!

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Maybe it's best to stick with the Bible.

Not really. Bible is sufficient, but not exhaustive, according to the bible itself:

And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen. (Jn. 21:25)

My son, hear the instruction of your father, And do not forsake the law of your mother; (Prov. 1:8)

“Do you understand what you are reading?” “How can I, unless someone guides me?” (Acts 8:30-31)

 

[Free]

Not really. Bible is sufficient, but not exhaustive, according to the bible itself:

And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen. (Jn. 21:25)

My son, hear the instruction of your father, And do not forsake the law of your mother; (Prov. 1:8)

“Do you understand what you are reading?” “How can I, unless someone guides me?” (Acts 8:30-31)

For understanding things like angels and spirits, it's best to stick with the Bible. If the Bible is sufficient in what it says regarding the life of faith, and it is, then there is no need to go elsewhere regarding those things it states, otherwise it isn't sufficient. If you want to know how to bake a cake, then look elsewhere.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

For understanding things like angels and spirits, it's best to stick with the Bible. If the Bible is sufficient in what it says regarding the life of faith, and it is, then there is no need to go elsewhere regarding those things it states, otherwise it isn't sufficient. If you want to know how to bake a cake, then look elsewhere.

The bible is sufficient in its contents, but WE are not sufficient in our own understanding by reading a modern English translation of this collection of ancient books. If you mean it by sticking to the bible, then listen to "instruction of your father", "law of your mother", "guidance of teachers" as well, even if they use extrabiblical resources and give you other life lessons.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Ah, Alfred Persson, the master of unveiling celestial mysteries with a touch of theological finesse! Your dive into the nuances of angels, spirits, and corporeality is like a cosmic jigsaw puzzle, and I'm here for the divine revelations.
You've skillfully highlighted the distinctions between disembodied spirits and angels still corporeal in the dimension of heaven. It's a theological dance where words tango with heavenly truths. Your references to Scripture are like divine footprints, guiding us through the labyrinth of angelic mysteries.
Now, let's talk about angels having a penchant for eating and drinking. It's as if they're attending a celestial banquet, and cognitive dissonance hides the revelation that they might materialize physical forms when entering our realm. But wait, isn't that a violation of Occam's razor? It's like a heavenly Occam's stand-up routine, where simplicity takes center stage.
And the concept of a portal or vortex for traversing realms – a divine whirlwind or a ladder reaching from earth to heaven. It's a cosmic travel agency where angels book their flights between dimensions.
Now, the heavenly construction project – New Jerusalem coming down from heaven. Angels wielding celestial hammers and nails, building a city that's not just metaphorical but an actual physical city. It's like a divine episode of "Extreme Makeover: Heavenly Edition."
And the notion that Paul, in his heavenly journey, could be physically present in the third heaven. If angels can wield weapons, fly in ships, and travel in craft with powered wheels, why doubt the possibility of physical presence in the TELEIOS "heavenly realm"? It's a divine sitcom where even angels have a taste for action-packed adventures.
In this cosmic comedy of celestial interpretations, you've thrown a heavenly gauntlet, challenging conventional wisdom with a theological twist. So, Alfred Persson, keep waltzing through the divine dance floor, unraveling the cosmic mysteries with your celestial choreography!

I will, thank you.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Jesus never taught that, he taught that "angels of God in heaven" don't marry, both good and evil ones. You inserted "good" in it. Just because the evil ones overstepped their proper domain doesn't mean they were suddenly able to marry and reproduce.

I agree, that alone doesn't prove it. Genesis 6:2 proves it.

Therefore, Jesus must have been talking about "sons of God" who had not left their proper habitation to take wives, all they chose....i.e., the good angels.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

But their genome evidently was in the survivors of the flood in the Ark, so giants appeared after the flood. But they are still called men, the children of Anak, son of Arba a man. Not a Nephilim.

So on that you are correct. It does seem like God made sure the "Nephilim genome" was cleansed from human lineage.

As for unclean spirits outside of the Abyss roaming the earth possessing people, animals and insects, they are either the evil hybrid children of the "sons of God" or "Nephilim", or the Nephilim themselves who didn't defile the image of God in man by bearing children, but were kept from returning to the realm of heaven when the flood came and so died physically. The "spirits of demons" then also roamed the earth.


The "sons of God" were segregated from the "fallen Ones (Nephilim)", and imprisoned in Tartarus, not the abyss.

"Sons of Anak" are the same kind of giants went by another name. Moses sent the twelve spies to gather intel from the land of Canaan, they all spotted these giants. We wouldn't have known what "Nephilim" means if not for the reports from these spies. That's the "afterwards" in Gen. 6:4, which clearly indicated that such "Nephilim" would still hang around after the Flood.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I agree, that alone doesn't prove it. Genesis 6:2 proves it.

Therefore, Jesus must have been talking about "sons of God" who had not left their proper habitation to take wives, all they chose....i.e., the good angels.

No, 6:2 doesn't. Jude 1:6-7 is a commentary on Gen. 6:1-4, neither suggests or implies that somehow evil angels are able to reproduce through sexual intercourse while good angels aren't. Besides, good angels left their habitations in heaven and sent God's message to His people, that's what angel means - messager. In Jacob's dream, he saw angels - not evil angels or good angels, just angels - climbing up and down a ladder between heaven and earth; Jesus also echoed that dream in Jn. 1:51 - "Most assuredly, I say to you, hereafter you shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man.”

 

[Alfred Persson]

W

Alfred Persson said:
The argument is a massive hasty generalization fallacy that lumps into one basket Angels still corporeal in heaven (Rev. 12:7-9)

7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought,
8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.
9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. (Rev. 12:7-9 NKJ)

Free
Where does the verse state or imply that angels are corporeal? We should be very careful to not go beyond what a verse states.

Reply:
In Noah’s day Satan cast his Nephilim (Fallen angels) to war against the woman’s seed (Gen. 3:15; 6:4)

3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads.

4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. (Rev. 12:3-4 NKJ)

The Nephilim were physical, they took human wives to defile the human genome with the DNA of angels, and so prevent the incarnation of Christ in truly human flesh:

And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel." (Gen. 3:15 NKJ)

The Nephilim were on the earth in those days-- and also afterward-- when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown. (Gen. 6:4 NIV)

The Nephilim were contemporaries of the angelic “sons of God” who also took wives (Gen. 6:2), Satan’s fallen angels he cast to the earth to war against the woman’s seed. They were physical just as the “sons of God” were, or they couldn’t have taken human wives.

Alfred Persson said:
Whenever Scripture depicts angels eating and drinking (Gen. 18:8) cognitive dissonance hides the revelation, the text is veiled by a theory angels materialize physical forms when entering our realm. That theory is a massive violation of Occam's razor, not a hint of its truth can be found in scripture. Rather than a change in corporeality, there is an "opening", some kind of vortex or portal one must step through to traverse the realms:

Free
Again, we should not go beyond what the Bible states.

Reply:
I didn’t, it requires a physical body to eat beef and drink milk. The theory they materialized bodies to do this is “going beyond what the Bible states”.

Alfred Persson said:
Although the angel of the LORD was cloaked with invisibility when He stepped into our realm to sit under a tree, nothing suggests a change in corporeality:

Free
It doesn't say anything about it either way. Again, we should not go beyond what the Bible states.

Reply:
Incorrect. The text says the angel made himself visible = “appeared to him” AFTER first sitting down under a tree:

11 Now the Angel of the LORD came and sat under the terebinth tree which was in Ophrah, which belonged to Joash the Abiezrite, while his son Gideon threshed wheat in the winepress, in order to hide it from the Midianites.
12 And the Angel of the LORD appeared (07200 רָאָה ra'ah) to him, and said to him, "The LORD is with you, you mighty man of valor!"/ (Jdg. 6:11-12 NKJ)

Alfred Persson said:
Angels ... fly in ships (Ezek. 1:4) and travel in craft rolling on powered wheels (Ezek. 1:15-21). Spirits don't do these things, physical beings do.

Free
That is really going beyond what the text states.

Reply
This is a description of something landing, today we know its an aircraft of some type:

Then I looked, and behold, a whirlwind was coming out of the north, a great cloud with raging fire engulfing itself; and brightness was all around it and radiating out of its midst like the color of amber, out of the midst of the fire. (Ezek. 1:4 NKJ)

Spirits don’t use wheels, physical beings do:
16 The appearance of the wheels and their workings was like the color of beryl, and all four had the same likeness. The appearance of their workings was, as it were, a wheel in the middle of a wheel. (Ezek. 1:16 NKJ)

Alfred Persson said:
Our LORD sits in heaven in resurrected humanity (Heb. 8:1), how then can any Christian doubt one can be physical in heaven? Christ "stood in their midst" (John 20:19-20, 26-27) without passing through doors or walls like a spirit. To prove corporeality Christ commands they touch His body, declares He has flesh and bones and then even eats a fish (Luke 24:36-43). If Christ "materialized a physical form" He deceived them, it was not truly His hands nor the print of the nails (John 20:25-27). As Christ never deceives anyone, its possible to be physical in the TELEIOS "heavenly realm".

Nothing about New Jerusalem coming down from heaven suggests it is not an actual physical city. No doubt Angels built it (Rev. 21:10-27). If it were impossible Paul be in heaven physically, he would have known he was "out of his body" while in third heaven (1 Cor. 12:2, 4).

Free
Paul says he didn't know. You can't just jump to the conclusion that therefore he was in heaven physically. Again, we should not go beyond what the text states.

Reply:
Why didn’t Paul know if he was physically in third heaven, or his out of the body? Because it is possible to be in Third heaven physically. If it were impossible Paul would have known he was “out of the body.”


Alfred Persson said:
Jesus said angels in heaven don't marry (Mat. 22:30), He did not say disobedient angels on earth can't marry.
The hapax legomen λειτουργικὰ πνεύματα "ministering spirits" in Hebrews 1:14 does not contradict angels are physical because angelic nature is not being discussed---their subordination to the Son is the topic.
"Ministering spirits" is figurative, referring back to Heb. 1:7
And of the angels He says: "Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire." (Heb. 1:7 NKJ)
If angels were spirits God would not have to "make His angels spirits."
This is figurative meaning:
Who makes his angels fast as the wind,
And His ministers as terrible as consuming fire to all who oppose God.
Hebrews 1:7 is being used in synecdoche in Hebrews 1:14 , the part referring the whole conveying Angels are "fast as the wind, terrible as a consuming fire when protecting God's people ministering to the heirs of salvation."
Paul as a "Pharisee the son of a Pharisee" believed "spirits" and "angels" are different entities (Acts. 23:6-7):
"Spirits of Demons" implies these formerly corporeal spirits are now disembodied:

Free
Your entire post is one assumption after the other, with nearly every posted verse going beyond what the verse states.


Reply:
The context of Hebrews 1:14 is the superiority of Christ, not the spiritual nature of angels. Angels are servants of God, Jesus is His Son. That’s the point. Christians who quote this to teach angels are spirits, are ripping the verse out of its context to make a pretext:

7 And of the angels He says: "Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire."
8 But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom. (Heb. 1:7-8 NKJ)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

The context of Hebrews 1:14 is the superiority of Christ, not the spiritual nature of angels. Angels are servants of God, Jesus is His Son. That’s the point. Christians who quote this to teach angels are spirits, are ripping the verse out of its context to make a pretext:

7 And of the angels He says: "Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire."
8 But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom. (Heb. 1:7-8 NKJ)

"For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenlt places." (Eph. 6:12)

 

[Ezekiel]

Protestants continue to propagate Catholic error till this day, confusing disembodied spirits with angels still corporeal in the dimension of heaven:


The argument is a massive hasty generalization fallacy that lumps into one basket Angels still corporeal in heaven (Rev. 12:7-9) and the "spirits of demons" (Rev. 16:14) who wander the earth desperately seeking corporeality possessing insects (2Kings 1:2), animals and men (Lk. 8:27-32; Compare "nakedness" 2 Cor. 5:2-4).

Whenever Scripture depicts angels eating and drinking (Gen. 18:8) cognitive dissonance hides the revelation, the text is veiled by a theory angels materialize physical forms when entering our realm. That theory is a massive violation of Occam's razor, not a hint of its truth can be found in scripture. Rather than a change in corporeality, there is an "opening", some kind of vortex or portal one must step through to traverse the realms:








Although the angel of the LORD was cloaked with invisibility when He stepped into our realm to sit under a tree, nothing suggests a change in corporeality:


Angels war among themselves (Jdg. 5:20; Dan. 10:13, 20; Rev. 12:7), use weapons to kill (2 Chron. 32:21), (Num. 22:23) and fly in ships (Ezek. 1:4) and travel in craft rolling on powered wheels (Ezek. 1:15-21). Spirits don't do these things, physical beings do.

Our LORD sits in heaven in resurrected humanity (Heb. 8:1), how then can any Christian doubt one can be physical in heaven? Christ "stood in their midst" (John 20:19-20, 26-27) without passing through doors or walls like a spirit. To prove corporeality Christ commands they touch His body, declares He has flesh and bones and then even eats a fish (Luke 24:36-43). If Christ "materialized a physical form" He deceived them, it was not truly His hands nor the print of the nails (John 20:25-27). As Christ never deceives anyone, its possible to be physical in the TELEIOS "heavenly realm".

Nothing about New Jerusalem coming down from heaven suggests it is not an actual physical city. No doubt Angels built it (Rev. 21:10-27). If it were impossible Paul be in heaven physically, he would have known he was "out of his body" while in third heaven (1 Cor. 12:2, 4).

Jesus said angels in heaven don't marry (Mat. 22:30), He did not say disobedient angels on earth can't marry.

The hapax legomen λειτουργικὰ πνεύματα "ministering spirits" in Hebrews 1:14 does not contradict angels are physical because angelic nature is not being discussed---their subordination to the Son is the topic.

"Ministering spirits" is figurative, referring back to Heb. 1:7

And of the angels He says: "Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire." (Heb. 1:7 NKJ)

If angels were spirits God would not have to "make His angels spirits."

This is figurative meaning:

Who makes his angels fast as the wind,

And His ministers as terrible as consuming fire to all who oppose God.

Hebrews 1:7 is being used in synecdoche in Hebrews 1:14 , the part referring the whole conveying Angels are "fast as the wind, terrible as a consuming fire when protecting God's people ministering to the heirs of salvation."

Paul as a "Pharisee the son of a Pharisee" believed "spirits" and "angels" are different entities (Acts. 23:6-7):



"Spirits of Demons" implies these formerly corporeal spirits are now disembodied:




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It is on this wise as I know it. Just as Adam and Eve before they were wrapped in flesh after the cosmos was created and placed on earth, this prison as it is written. Before that were light beings, that of the Christ. Angels can come to earth thru the temple change that garment and dwell then return and change back. Then again a Angel will also be born and another angel leads the one to and thru the womb but this way the Angel no not whom they are. In revelation Satan send his angels to kill Christ before He was born during His life and then at the cross that they didn't know what was going on. Then also they can come with changing their garment and you can't see them but work as to say not being known. I know that I know because I've been made to know.