Are Calvinists the Only True Christians?

[th1b.taylor]

Why does this thread no have a like button?

I read that and like the dummy I am, tried to likie your post.

 

[Seabass]

I don' disagree with Eph 4.

So you agree there are not many churches and many faiths and every religious organization is not of that one body not going by that one faith. If there are 30,000 organizations then 29,999 are lost for 30,000 does not equal the one body.

When you add works based salvation...you add to the gospel.

The gospel requires obedience 2 Thessalonians 1:8. Removing obedience from salvation is changing the gospel to fit a preconceived idea(s)

Your salvation is determined before you are even born.

Romans 9: 10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—

Romans 9 is not about how individuals are saved. Paul knew God had cast off fleshly Israel from being His chosen people and grafted in the Gentiles. Romans 9 Paul is refuting the arguments he knew the Jews would have about God casting them off, accusing God of being unrighteous for casting them off. The Jews thought just being physical descendants of Abraham was sufficient to save them (Matthew 3:9) and Paul is proving in Romans 9:6-13 God does not have base who He chooses or His promises solely on physical descent. Romans 9:11 Paul is showing Esau (Edomites) were the true descendants of Abraham thru His true son of promise Isaac just as Jacob (Israel) but Esau/Edom were not chosen. People read Calvinistic predestination into this passage when it is not there. Paul simply proves God's promises are not based solely upon physical descent. Since Jacob was chosen does not mean Esau could not obey God and be saved. By all accounts given in the bible, he was saved. God chose Abraham over Melchizedec making the promises to Abraham but this did not mean Melchisedec and his descendants were predetermined to be lost for he had favor with God, Hebrews 7:1.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Here is what John Calvin taught.

Let's take three common issues and show why they are valid criticisms in light of Calvin's own words: 1) God authoring evil, 2) God predestining to Hell, and 3) free will.

1. God is the author of evil

...how foolish and frail is the support of divine justice afforded by the suggestion that evils come to be, not by His will but by His permission... It is a quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permits them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing, but the author of them... (John Calvin, The Eternal Predestination of God, 10:11)

The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)

thieves and murderers, and other evildoers, are instruments of divine providence, being employed by the Lord himself to execute judgments which he has resolved to inflict. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 5)

2. God predestines to Hell

…it is utterly inconsistent to transfer the preparation for destruction to anything but God’s secret plan… God’s secret plan is the cause of hardening. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 2, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)

Many professing a desire to defend the Deity from an individual charge admit the doctrine of election, but deny that any one is reprobated. This they do ignorantly and childishly, since there could be no election without its opposite, reprobation. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)

…individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)

With Augustine I say: the Lord has created those whom he unquestionably foreknew would go to destruction. This has happened because he has willed. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 5)

3. There is no free will

We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, –that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)

Creatures are so governed by the secret counsel of God, that nothing happens but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 3)

God causes everything and of necessity, that is, in accordance with his providence. (John Calvin, The Bondage and Liberation of the Will, 1996, pg. 253)

Everything that happens, happens of necessity, as God has ordained. (John Calvin, The Bondage and Liberation of the Will, 1996, pg. 258)

Central to [Calvin's] case is the distinction between necessity and coercion.[74] Necessity he defines as "a fixed, steady state in which a thing cannot be otherwise than it is." He agrees with Aristotle that necessity is the opposite of "the existence of alternative possibilities" (335). The necessity to sin means that sinners cannot other than sin. (Lane, 31)


Total Heresy.



JLB

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

Very good post. I do not find that God has pre-determined some to not be saved, It is God's desire that all men come to Christ for salvation. It is man that rejects God's call and not that God has determined some will not be saved.

 

[Seabass]

That is how a man can have Free Will and be, Predestined. They do not cancel each other out, proving God"s ways are not our ways.

It is not possible for Calvinistic predestination and free will to both at work at the same time.

It is possible for Biblical predestination and free will to exist and work at the same time though.

 

[dirtfarmer]

It is not possible for Calvinistic predestination and free will to both at work at the same time.

It is possible for Biblical predestination and free will to exist and work at the same time though.

hello Seabass, dirtfarmer here

While i will agree with you: "it is not possible for calvanistic predestination and free will to both work at the same time". The calvanistic predestination is contrary to the Gospel's , whosoever will . The call has gone out to all and it is up to man's free will to either accept that call or reject it.

As to Bibical predestination, that is God has pre-determined that whosoever believes has been pre-determine to be an heir and joint-heir with Christ, not to be either saved or condenmed.

 

[Seabass]

hello Seabass, dirtfarmer here

While i will agree with you: "it is not possible for calvanistic predestination and free will to both work at the same time". The calvanistic predestination is contrary to the Gospel's , whosoever will . The call has gone out to all and it is up to man's free will to either accept that call or reject it.

As to Bibical predestination, that is God has pre-determined that whosoever believes has been pre-determine to be an heir and joint-heir with Christ, not to be either saved or condenmed.

Yes, God has predetermined a group called Christian-believers to be saved and man uses his free will to choose to be in that group or not.

God never unconditionally predetermined certain individual to be saved or lost apart from man's free will. If before the world began, God predetermined for you that you will be lost, then what free will choice do you have in your eternal destiny? None.

 

[Cygnus]

So you agree there are not many churches and many faiths and every religious organization is not of that one body not going by that one faith. If there are 30,000 organizations then 29,999 are lost for 30,000 does not equal the one body.

I'm speaking of christian denominations. For the most part they believe the same essential elements of faith.
If a denominations teaches Jesus isn't God....then I would consider them as non-christian.

The gospel requires obedience 2 Thessalonians 1:8. Removing obedience from salvation is changing the gospel to fit a preconceived idea(s)

2nd Thes 1:8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
You took that verse ....W A Y ... out of context.
Those that don't know God...can't even come close to obeying the Lord Jesus.....it's NOT about the believer obeying.

Romans 9 is not about how individuals are saved. Paul knew God had cast off fleshly Israel from being His chosen people and grafted in the Gentiles. Romans 9 Paul is refuting the arguments he knew the Jews would have about God casting them off, accusing God of being unrighteous for casting them off. The Jews thought just being physical descendants of Abraham was sufficient to save them (Matthew 3:9) and Paul is proving in Romans 9:6-13 God does not have base who He chooses or His promises solely on physical descent. Romans 9:11 Paul is showing Esau (Edomites) were the true descendants of Abraham thru His true son of promise Isaac just as Jacob (Israel) but Esau/Edom were not chosen. People read Calvinistic predestination into this passage when it is not there. Paul simply proves God's promises are not based solely upon physical descent. Since Jacob was chosen does not mean Esau could not obey God and be saved. By all accounts given in the bible, he was saved. God chose Abraham over Melchizedec making the promises to Abraham but this did not mean Melchisedec and his descendants were predetermined to be lost for he had favor with God, Hebrews 7:1.

The verse clearly shows before the twins were even born....didn't do any right or wrong, their salvation was determined.

 

[Cygnus]

Yes, God has predetermined a group called Christian-believers to be saved and man uses his free will to choose to be in that group or not.

God never unconditionally predetermined certain individual to be saved or lost apart from man's free will. If before the world began, God predetermined for you that you will be lost, then what free will choice do you have in your eternal destiny? None.

Concerning your free will...you have none when it comes to salvation..

Perhaps you would like to explain why a person would not choose Christ? What do they base that decision on?

 

[WIP]

The Theology forum requires that viewpoints be supported by Scripture reference. I'm seeing a lot of opinions being tossed with no Scripture to support the opinions. Let's keep this about God's word and not our own.

 

[Seabass]

....christian denominations.....

No such thing exists in the bible. The bible speaks of just ONE church established by Christ, that Christ died for and that Christ is the head of ONE, not 3,987 churches or 22,964 churches but ONE church.

2nd Thes 1:8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
You took that verse ....W A Y ... out of context.
Those that don't know God...can't even come close to obeying the Lord Jesus.....it's NOT about the believer obeying.

Nothing was taken out of context. If one does not obey the gospel he will be lost. Peter says the same thing 1 Peter 4:17.

2 Thessalonians 1:8:
1) not knowing God
2) not obeying the gospel

are two reasons given that one will be lost.

The Pharisees knew of God, they knew God existed for they were not atheists but they will be lost for not obeying the gospel.

The verse clearly shows before the twins were even born....didn't do any right or wrong, their salvation was determined.

CONTEXT of Romans 9 is not about salvation but refuting the Jews arguments against God in God casting them off from being His chosen:

-Paul uses OT verses about Jacob and Esau to prove to the Jews that God does not base His promises solely on physical descent
-Paul used the OT verses about Pharaoh to prove to the Jews that God can have mercy upon whom He chooses, God can have mercy upon the Gentiles if he so chooses if even they were not chosen back in the OT.
-Paul uses the OT verses of the potter and clay to show the Jew is in no position to accuse God of being unrighteous and not keeping His promises to them in casting them off.


If Calvinistic election were true, then the Jews could never be cast off or the Gentiles could never be grafted in.

 

[Seabass]

Concerning your free will...you have none when it comes to salvation..

Perhaps you would like to explain why a person would not choose Christ? What do they base that decision on?

Yes I do. I can choose to have faith or not when I hear the word Romans 10:17. Believing is a personal choice--some choose to believe what they hear others choose not to..... some people like carrots others do not.....some people like Mozart others do not. None of this is predetermined but personal choices.

 

[Cygnus]

No such thing exists in the bible. The bible speaks of just ONE church established by Christ, that Christ died for and that Christ is the head of ONE, not 3,987 churches or 22,964 churches but ONE church.

Are you saying the baptist denomination....are not part o that one church? Or, is it just your denomination that is of the one church?

[edited]

If Calvinistic election were true, then the Jews could never be cast off or the Gentiles could never be grafted in.

What?????

 

[Cygnus]

Yes I do. I can choose to have faith or not when I hear the word Romans 10:17. Believing is a personal choice--some choose to believe what they hear others choose not to..... some people like carrots others do not.....some people like Mozart others do not. None of this is predetermined but personal choices.

So, your salvation is dependent on what you like or dislike?
Why if given free choice would someone dislike Christ and His salvation...and not choose Christ?

 

[JLB]

It is not possible for Calvinistic predestination and free will to both at work at the same time.

It is possible for Biblical predestination and free will to exist and work at the same time though.

 

[Cygnus]

It is not possible for Calvinistic predestination and free will to both at work at the same time.

It is possible for Biblical predestination and free will to exist and work at the same time though.

Calvinistic predestination is biblical.
Johnny got it right.

 

[th1b.taylor]

So, your salvation is dependent on what you like or dislike?
Why if given free choice would someone dislike Christ and His salvation...and not choose Christ?

The moderator warned you and I remind you, you are not using scripture to base your case, rather you are giving us your opinion to try to sway usbut any opinion is just as valid as any other and in this case, just as wrong as any other. Our God left us a written copy of what he wants from us and we will live or die according to what He has commanded.

The scriptures are the Final Court of Authority, right up until Jesus returns to rule and neither I nor Seabass, JLB nor any God fearing person can speak well to your claims as long as you want to force your will onto us without reinforcing what you claim without any supporting scripture. This forum is about Scripture, nothing else. We would love to get you into the scriptures to illustrate any errors but you continue attempting to force your opinion on us.
Scripture, please.

 

[Cygnus]

Theto try to sway us moderator warned you and I remind you, you are not using scripture to base your case, rather you are giving us your opinion but any opinion is just as valid as any other and in this case, just as wrong as any other. Our God left us a written copy of what he wants from us and we will live or die according to what He has commanded.

The scriptures are the Final Court of Authority, right up until Jesus returns to rule and neither I nor Seabass, JLB nor any God fearing person can speak well to your claims as long as you want to force your will onto us without reinforcing what you claim without any supporting scripture. This forum is about Scripture, nothing else. We would love to get you into the scriptures to illustrate any errors but you continue attempting to force your opinion on us.
Scripture, please.

I was simply asking a question.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I was simply asking a question.

No sir, reread your string of posts and you will see that you are making assertions to try to sway us that are not supportable with scripture.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Okay, that time it was a question but we must use scripture to illustrate our points and you have made some unscriptural assertions without demonstrating why you believe these things.

Our opinions do not matter, however, we do have a free will, how else could we obey Matthew 3:2 & 4:7, Acts 3:19 & 1jon 3:23? Without a free will none of us could be saved, we are born in sin. (Palm 51:5, Romans 5:12, 3:10 & 3:23)

 

[markathome]

Then my friend...you are lost.

Are we still dancing around the abyss or have we taken the plunge? Matthew 7:1-3