Are Christians Sinners?

[F345T]

Unfortunately it was dismissed for the wrong reason. It certainly does not support the idea that God doesn’t hear sinners, as you know.

Is Jesus separate from sinners?

Does God say that the sinners of His people shall die by the sword?

Does David ask God not to include him among the sinners that God takes away for their sinfulness?

Are those who commit sin of the devil?

Is the devil a sinner?

Does Peter say Christians are dead to sin?

 

[F345T]

You should know that by using that verse without understanding the context, you’re agreeing with the Pharisees that Jesus is a sinner. Just thought I should point that out.

You should know that by spouting all manner of absolute nonsense, like you have all over this forum for so long now, that you ARE a Pharisee. Might wana look in the mirror.

 

[F345T]

All the following verses prove that God does not hear sinners:

Job 27:9
Job 35:12
Psalm 18:41
Prov. 1:28
Prov. 15:29
Prov. 28:9
Isaiah 1:15
Jer. 11:11
Jer. 14:12
Ezek. 8:18
Micah 3:4
Zech. 7:13
James 5:16

 

[Free]

You should know that by spouting all manner of absolute nonsense, like you have all over this forum for so long now, that you ARE a Pharisee. Might wana look in the mirror.

This violates the ToS and you risk being removed from this discussion.

hawkman ’s point, I believe, is that you are taking that verse out of context. He was asking you questions to get you to look at the passage and think properly about it. You need to reread John 9, from the beginning, and understand who is talking in verse 31, who they are talking about, and why.

 

[Free]

All the following verses prove that God does not hear sinners:

…
James 5:16

James 5:16 doesn’t say anything about it.

 

[hawkman]

John 9:31 still states very clearly that "God heareth not sinners: ...". If that's your point, I think I got it when I posted this thread.

See the post below .

@hawkman ’s point, I believe, is that you are taking that verse out of context. He was asking you questions to get you to look at the passage and think properly about it. You need to reread John 9, from the beginning, and understand who is talking in verse 31, who they are talking about, and why.

There it is in bold F345T or this is all that is going to happen .

 

[F345T]

This violates the ToS and you risk being removed from this discussion.

hawkman ’s point, I believe, is that you are taking that verse out of context. He was asking you questions to get you to look at the passage and think properly about it. You need to reread John 9, from the beginning, and understand who is talking in verse 31, who they are talking about, and why.

No, YOU need to re-read the entire Bible.

What damage do you imagine you do to ME removing me from a corrupted discussion? A totally propagandized discussion which YOU have taken part in corrupting?

Remove all you like.

What are you waiting for?

Don't make empty threats!

 

[F345T]

See the post below .

There it is in bold F345T or this is all that is going to happen .

You and a number of your staff need to pray for deliverance and discernment as you are clueless about what you preach here.

 

[F345T]

No true Christian is a sinner.

Sin separates us from God. It is an open offense to our Savior. Why in the world would we ever want to claim to be that?

True sincere Christians are most certainly not sinners.

Proof? Sure.

If Christians were sinners, God would never hear a single prayer ... ever.
"Now we know that God does not hear sinners; ..."
John 9:31

If Christians were sinners, God would hate all Christians and want them all dead.
"All the sinners of My people shall die by the sword, ..."
Amos 9:10
"Behold the Day of the Lord cometh, ... to lay the land desolate: and He shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it."
Isaiah 13:9
"He that committeth sin (willingly) is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning."
1 John 3:8
"... consider Him that endured such (hostility) of sinners against Himself, ..."
Hebrews 12:3

God does not count sinners among the righteous at all.
"Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful."
Psalm 1:1
"... the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous."
Psalm 1:5

One of the most obvious, and nonsensical, aspects of this contradiction is the very definition of the Christian. A Christian is a follower of Christ. Was Christ a sinner? Nothing could be further from the Truth. Christ lived a 100% sin-less life. So for all these big name Preachers to get up there in front of their massive congregations and repeatedly vomit out the nonsensical claim that Christians are sinners is literally equivalent to saying Christians are not .... Christians? How preposterous is that?

So next time you go to quote John Macarthur or Michael Brown or Billy Graham or David Jeremiah or any of the other massively famous TV Preachers, just remember how ridiculous some of what they are preaching really is.

 

[F345T]

James 5:16 doesn’t say anything about it.

You need to answer these questions if you expect to retain an ounce of dignity as a staff member on a Christian website.

Is Jesus separate from sinners?

Does God say that the sinners of His people shall die by the sword?

Does David ask God not to include him among the sinners that God takes away for their sinfulness?

Are those who commit sin of the devil?

Is the devil a sinner?

Does Peter say Christians are dead to sin?

 

[electedbyHim]

Christians are both sinners and saints. All human beings are sinners because we are born in sin. But not all humans are saints. According to the Bible, a saint is not someone who has done wonderful things, nor is it someone who has been deemed a saint by a church or organization. The word translated “saint” in the New Testament, hagios, literally means “sacred, physically pure; morally blameless or religious; ceremonially consecrated; holy.” In the context of New Testament passages, saints are those who belong to the body of Christ, saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8–9). In other words, saint is another word for a Christian, a true believer in the Lord Jesus Christ.

It is a clear biblical truth that all are born in sin and all have a sin nature. Scripture says that God created humankind originally good and without a sin nature: "Then God said, ‘Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness.’ . . . God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them” (Genesis 1:26–27). However, Genesis 3 records the fall of Adam and Eve, and with that fall sin entered into the two previously sinless creatures. And when they had children, their sin nature was passed along to their offspring. Thus, every human being is a sinner.

Saints, on the other hand, are not born saints; they become saints by being reborn. Because we have all “sinned and fallen short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23), we are all in need of spiritual rebirth, without which we will continue in our sinful state throughout eternity. But God, in His great mercy and grace, has provided the (only) means for turning a sinner into a saint—the Lord Jesus Christ, who came “to give His life as a ransom for many.” When we confess our need for a Savior from sin and accept His sacrifice on the cross on our behalf, we become saints.

There is no hierarchy of saints. All who belong to Christ by faith are saints, and none of us are more “saintly” than our Christian brothers and sisters. The apostle Paul, who is no more of a saint than the most obscure Christian, begins his first letter to the Corinthian church by declaring that they were “sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be saints, together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Corinthians 1:2, emphasis added). In this verse, hagios is translated “saints,” “holy,” and “sanctified” in different Bible versions, leading to the unmistakable conclusion that all who have ever called upon Christ for salvation are saints, made holy by the Lord. We are all “fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God” (Ephesians 2:19).

We are not saints because we have been declared to be saints by a church, nor can we work our way to sainthood. Once we are saved by faith, however, we are called to certain actions befitting our calling as saints of God. “But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: ‘Be holy, because I am holy’” (1 Peter 1:15–16). Saints are not sinless, but the lives of saints do reflect the reality of the presence of Christ in our hearts, in whom we “live and move and have our being” (Acts 17:28).

Gotquestions.com

 

[eddif]

Mm

You and a number of your staff need to pray for deliverance and discernment as you are clueless about what you preach here.

we all see through a glass darkly.

I am going to say something I usually avoid.

The Greek verbs are very expressive. They do much more than simple past present and future. I avoid talking about this most of the time.
However
It might help to do a Read over of Greek verbs. Stuff goes on that is important.

I am not trying to prove anyone wrong or right with Greek.
Well what am I saying?

After you look into Greek you see how hard discussions can be.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[hawkman]

So for all these big name Preachers to get up there in front of their massive congregations and repeatedly vomit out the nonsensical claim that Christians are sinners is literally equivalent to saying Christians are not .... Christians? How preposterous is that?

So next time you go to quote John Macarthur or Michael Brown or Billy Graham or David Jeremiah or any of the other massively famous TV Preachers, just remember how ridiculous some of what they are preaching really is.

As you take your broad paint brush and paint across the Christian landscape bare this in mind .

49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.

50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

You never did reply Free 's post below , did you see it F345T ?

@F345T What are you asking by "are Christians sinners"? If you asking "are Christians the types of people whose lives are characterized by continual, unrepentant sin, so that they are no different than unbelievers?," then no. But, if you are asking "are Christians those who are justified but still fighting sin in the flesh, yet growing in sanctification through the power and help of the Holy Spirit?," then the answer is yes. And that is what most preachers and teachers mean when they say Christians are sinners--we are truly justified but we still struggle against sin, and sometimes lose, but we confess and so are forgiven and cleansed from all unrighteousness.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hey All,
Actually 2 greats got as close as anybody could. Nobody in the New Testament has accomplished such a feat.

Everybody who has been reborn from the seed of God has accomplished that.
God's seed cannot bring forth liars, thieves, or murderers.
Do you think God's seed will bring forth liars, thieves, or murderers ?

Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Remember, Abe' was pre-Law.

The greats obtained righteousness the same way we did. They believed in the coming Messiah and God counted to them as righteousness.

In a sense, you are tight.
Those that believe in God are those made righteous, but we in the NT have been furnished all we require to stay righteous after believing.
Rebirth, primarily, is a gift the OT didn't have.

There is a place that Luke 15 tells about called Abraham's Bosom. It is the place where those in OT times went after death if they were believers.

It is a parable, not reality.

Nobody has perfect obedience.

Then nobody has the faith of Abraham.
Fortunately, I know men can be perfectly obedient now.
Jesus didn't command the impossible in Matt 5:48.
Paul didn't command the impossible in 1 Cor 15:34.
Peter wasn't kidding around in 1 Peter 4:1 or 2 Peter 1:10.
John was true when he wrote 1 John 5:18.

If the apostles could not achieve this, then I know we cannot either.

If they were faithful, they, by the grace of God, did achieve it.
Judas wasn't faithful and did not achieve it.

I will follow their examples of how to live. Anybody who does is guaranteed a spot in heaven.

If you follow the examples of the enemies of Christ, you will only achieve a second death.
The apostles were not enemies of Jesus.
Servants of sin hate Jesus. (John 8:34, Matt 6:24)

How do I know this?
Revelation 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
The 12 apostles made it. Follow Jesus, and the examples of the 12 apostles. We will not go wrong.

Illustrate any sin written of in scripture done by the apostles.

 

[hawkman]

You and a number of your staff need to pray for deliverance and discernment as you are clueless about what you preach here.

Discernment is very much needed here on the forum and if you feel lead to pray for us please do so .
We are here to help one another as much as we are able to . Iron sharpens Iron .

 

[Hopeful 2]

As a YE creationist also, yes.

What is a YE creationist.
And don't they beleive what is written in the bible, either ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Yes, they are. What I said is consistent with what Paul says there. You are beginning with the assumption that Christians can't sin and then concluding the same. You're begging the question.

You really don't beleive man can now walk on the Spirit instead of in the "flesh", do you?
Paul, and I, do.

John the Apostle.

John wrote the words, but not the interpretation that denies the words.
You really don't think anybody walks in the light, do you ?

You just called John a liar. Why? Again, you're beginning with the assumption that believers can't sin and then using that to conclude that believers can't sin. You're begging the question.

Not at all.
I call the interpreters who accommodate sin "liars".

But you're still ignoring the context which shows that it doesn't mean what you think it means. Commands for believers to be holy and to avoid sin are meaningless if believers can't sin. What Paul says is consistent with what John says.

You are ignoring the command in order to justify sin.
We are provided hundreds of exhortations and admonissions to maintain the holy walk we have been reborn into.
Those "called" Christian can commit sin, but the sin will illustrate both his false repentance from sin and his failure to be reborn of God.
They were not really Christians at all.
The sin proves it.

Neither of those ideas are taught anywhere in Scripture.

I see them being taught in almost every book of the NT.

Paul says believers continue to struggle with sin (Rom 6 and7) and John says believers continue to struggle with sin (1 John).

Your bias in favor of sin is showing.
Just as my bias of loving God is showing.

No, I am not hoping to justify sin. That is a purposeful misrepresentation of my position. Don't do it again.

That is the only way I can describe it.
You seem to be trying to use commands not to sin in order to cement sin into the Christian life !
If your spouse says "I love you" every time you leave the house, does that mean they don't love you ?
If they say, "Fill the gas tank." does that mean you won't put gas in the car ?
When the dentist says "Keep brushing those teeth.", does that mean you must not brush your teeth.
If John says "Walk in the light", does that mean you must walk in the darkness ?
Why does it mean "you must walk in darkness" to you ?

No, they won't, since mine are based on what Scripture states.

Yours are based on what some sinner interpreted it to mean.
Some man who wanted to keep committing sin darkened the words of John to negate what John said.
They couldn't foul 1 John 5:18 though..."We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."

I never said I didn't. Again, don't misrepresent my position.

Your position is that Christians must commit sin.
As a man reborn of God's seed, I can tell you it is a position not born of God..

You're again presuming and begging the question. The letter was written to the believers in the church in Rome. It's instructions for believers.

Then why not take the instruction to heart ?
Get "immersed" into Christ's death and resurrection and destroy the old man !
Become dead to sin, and walk in the Spirit instead of in the "flesh" !
Quit yielding your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

No, that is clearly not what Paul is saying. These are believers he is writing to. It's hard to believe the lengths you stretch things just to avoid the plain reading of a text.

You will need to define which part of that stanza you disagree with,

Rom 6:19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification. (ESV)

Paul is telling those at the church in Rome to "now present your members as slaves to righteousness," "just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity." It can only be in reference to believers, which means it is their flesh that is weak. Paul is encouraging them to stop sinning--to fight against sin--and to do that which leads to sanctification.

If they have yet to be sanctified, they are not Christians.
Paul is writing to a mixed audience.
And, he is providing the teaching tools for future converts.
Just like I am using them today for any reader who is still walking in the "flesh" and serving sin.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Luk 18:10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
Luk 18:11 The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.
Luk 18:12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’
Luk 18:13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’
Luk 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.” (ESV)

Do you think the tax collector went back to his sin after that ?

 

[Free]

You need to answer these questions if you expect to retain an ounce of dignity as a staff member on a Christian website.

I already said that these sorts of personal attacks are against the ToS and may result in your removal from this discussion. So, stop, now.

Is Jesus separate from sinners?

Of course.

Does God say that the sinners of His people shall die by the sword?

I don’t know. Does he? If he does, who, exactly, are “His people”?

Does David ask God not to include him among the sinners that God takes away for their sinfulness?

I don’t know. Does he? And if so, what precisely does he mean?

Are those who commit sin of the devil?

It depends on what you mean by “those who commit sin.”

Is the devil a sinner?

Obviously.

Does Peter say Christians are dead to sin?

Does he? And if he does, what does he mean by that? This is all the more important since Paul says Peter sinned (Gal 2:11-14).

Why is it you want me to answer your questions, which I do, but you won’t answer mine? Why the double standard?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Absolutely not.

This is one of the most disturbing popular claims among almost every single modern church and big name Preacher today. Christians are not sinners.

Even from very early on in my Christian walk, this claim repulsed me from within. How could this be? How could Christians be calling themselves sinners? Yes, of course we've all sinned. Yes, we still stumble, but to declare that you are a sinner is to claim that you accept and embrace sin. That is absolutely the polar opposite of what the Christian Faith is all about. No true Christian is a sinner.

Sin separates us from God. It is an open offense to our Savior. Why in the world would we ever want to claim to be that?

True sincere Christians are most certainly not sinners.

Proof? Sure.

If Christians were sinners, God would never hear a single prayer ... ever.
"Now we know that God does not hear sinners; ..."
John 9:31

If Christians were sinners, God would hate all Christians and want them all dead.
"All the sinners of My people shall die by the sword, ..."
Amos 9:10
"Behold the Day of the Lord cometh, ... to lay the land desolate: and He shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it."
Isaiah 13:9
"He that committeth sin (willingly) is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning."
1 John 3:8
"... consider Him that endured such (hostility) of sinners against Himself, ..."
Hebrews 12:3

God does not count sinners among the righteous at all.
"Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful."
Psalm 1:1
"... the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous."
Psalm 1:5

One of the most obvious, and nonsensical, aspects of this contradiction is the very definition of the Christian. A Christian is a follower of Christ. Was Christ a sinner? Nothing could be further from the Truth. Christ lived a 100% sin-less life. So for all these big name Preachers to get up there in front of their massive congregations and repeatedly vomit out the nonsensical claim that Christians are sinners is literally equivalent to saying Christians are not .... Christians? How preposterous is that?

So next time you go to quote John Macarthur or Michael Brown or Billy Graham or David Jeremiah or any of the other massively famous TV Preachers, just remember how ridiculous some of what they are preaching really is.

First of all we need to have a balanced view here, which is kind of opposed to the typical western mentality of black-and-white dichotomies, that you must be this or that with no middle ground. In a lot of cases there are two sides or two parts of the same thing, for example, the synoptic gospels and the gospel of John, these two COMPLEMENT each other and make a whole; but when you're stuck in a dichotomy, you must pick one and reject the other; if the synoptics are true, then John must be false; if John is true, then the synopics must be false, even though the two are not mutual exclusive as you think they are, or there're actually third, fourth and more options beyond the two. This is a logical fallacy called "false dichotomy", which has unfortunately affected a lot of folks here, including you. And as long as you're thinking in a false dichotomy, any bible verse you quote only serves the purpose of reinforcing your presupposition, instead of showing you the truth, they blind you to see only one side and filter out the other side.

So back to your question in the OP, are Christians sinners? This is a loaded question, a product of this mentality of dichotomy. I would rephrase it like this - Do Christians have sins? The answer to that is loud and clear in 1 Jn. 1:8 - "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." We live in a fallen and sinful world, sins and temptations are all around us, we struggle with sins everyday. "Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now." (Gal. 4:28-29) Pride, envy, gluttony, wrath, lust, sloth and greed are not mere behaviors, they are in our nature, and according to Gal. 4:28-29, not my own idea, this nature does NOT cease to exist when you're born again with a new nature, quite the opposite, it's alerted and activated to suppress our new nature.

I have debated with member Hopeful for a long time on this topic, he's completely stuck with the heresy of "sinless perfection", and he straight up rejected anything contrary to his view such as these verses, he just dismissed them as irrelevant, he thought sin doesn't exist, we're living in a utopia even though it's a dystopia, that's a state of blindness just like what I've described above.

The good news is, we are empowered by the Holy Spirit to overcome this old nature, we have a new purpose, we follow the Holy Spirit and set out eyes on Christ, therefore we're no longer defined by our sins, we're defined by our faith in Christ, and this faith gives us strength to walk in the newness of life and conform to the image of Christ instead of this world. This walk is not a sprint, but a marathon, it lasts for a lifetime until we yield our last breath. What we have now is a preview of the glory in His kingdom to come, it's the crumbs falling off the master's table, there's still a long way to go. So, to answer your question, we're Christians who are identified with Christ and not our sins, not sinners who falsely identify themselves as Christians but indulge in their sins.