Are Christians Sinners?

[Free]

You really don't beleive man can now walk on the Spirit instead of in the "flesh", do you?
Paul, and I, do.

No, never said that.

John wrote the words, but not the interpretation that denies the words.

Exactly, John wrote the words that say believers are to continually confess there sins. It’s only your interpretation that denies those words.

You really don't think anybody walks in the light, do you ?

Of course I do. All true believers do.

Not at all.
I call the interpreters who accommodate sin "liars".

That’s interesting, since John says that not only those who claim to be without sin are liars, but they make God a liar too.

You are ignoring the command in order to justify sin.

No, I am not. I strongly suggest you stop misrepresenting my position. That is a violation of the ToS. Last warning.

We are provided hundreds of exhortations and admonissions to maintain the holy walk we have been reborn into.

We are provided those exhortations precisely because we still struggle with sin.

Those "called" Christian can commit sin, but the sin will illustrate both his false repentance from sin and his failure to be reborn of God.
They were not really Christians at all.
The sin proves it.

Nowhere is that taught in Scripture. According to your position, Peter wasn’t truly saved (Gal 2:11-14).

I see them being taught in almost every book of the NT.

You might, but that isn’t what’s being taught.

Your bias in favor of sin is showing.
Just as my bias of loving God is showing.

Again, misrepresenting my position.

That is the only way I can describe it.
You seem to be trying to use commands not to sin in order to cement sin into the Christian life !
If your spouse says "I love you" every time you leave the house, does that mean they don't love you ?
If they say, "Fill the gas tank." does that mean you won't put gas in the car ?
When the dentist says "Keep brushing those teeth.", does that mean you must not brush your teeth.
If John says "Walk in the light", does that mean you must walk in the darkness ?
Why does it mean "you must walk in darkness" to you ?

Yours are based on what some sinner interpreted it to mean.
Some man who wanted to keep committing sin darkened the words of John to negate what John said.
They couldn't foul 1 John 5:18 though..."We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."

Your position is that Christians must commit sin.
As a man reborn of God's seed, I can tell you it is a position not born of God..

Then why not take the instruction to heart ?
Get "immersed" into Christ's death and resurrection and destroy the old man !
Become dead to sin, and walk in the Spirit instead of in the "flesh" !
Quit yielding your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

You will need to define which part of that stanza you disagree with,

If they have yet to be sanctified, they are not Christians.
Paul is writing to a mixed audience.
And, he is providing the teaching tools for future converts.
Just like I am using them today for any reader who is still walking in the "flesh" and serving sin.

The rest of this isn’t worth responding to with your continual, purposeful misrepresentation of my position, in violation of the ToS.

 

[Hopeful 2]

No, never said that.

You are saying that all men, converted or not, reborn of God's seed or not, must commit sin.

Exactly, John wrote the words that say believers are to continually confess there sins. It’s only your interpretation that denies those words.

You have added the words "believers are to continually confess their sins" to scripture.
Believers don't commit sin.
It is written..."But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." (Heb 10:39)
"We who do not draw back unto sin are not of the unbelievers".

Of course I do. All true believers do.

If they are walking in God, they won't be committing sin.
There is no sin in God.
Only those who walk in darkness commit sin.

That’s interesting, since John says that not only those who claim to be without sin are liars, but they make God a liar too.

Those who walk in darkness cannot truthfully claim they have no sin.
They also can't say they have fellowship with God.
They also can't say they know God.

No, I am not. I strongly suggest you stop misrepresenting my position. That is a violation of the ToS. Last warning.

Those walking in darkness are liars. Darkness is sin.
Those walking in the light, are not liars. The light is God.

We are provided those exhortations precisely because we still struggle with sin.

Temptation maybe, but not sin.
And we are even promised that we won't be tempted above that which we are able, and that God will always provide an escape from temptation. (1 Cor 1o:13)

Nowhere is that taught in Scripture.

Yes, it is,
It is written..."He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:8-10)

According to your position, Peter wasn’t truly saved (Gal 2:11-14).

Condescending to visitors is not a sin.

You might, but that isn’t what’s being taught.

If one is blind to it, they will never be free to serve God..
It is written..."Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." (2 Tim 2:19)

Again, misrepresenting my position.

Is committing sin a trait of those subject to Christ ?

The rest of this isn’t worth responding to with your continual, purposeful misrepresentation of my position, in violation of the ToS.

 

[7thMoon]

It was God's plan to send Jesus to die for our sins and reconcile us to himself. But, since according to deism, God doesn't interfere in human affairs, Jesus was just your average first century wanna be Messiah who died for nothing. From your perspective, Jesus's death was completely devoid of the work of God and therefore meaningless, correct?

It would also mean a denial of much of Scripture. Jesus told his disciples how to pray, more than once, told them to "pray for those who persecute" them, told them to "pray earnestly to the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers," told them to pray so that they "may not enter into temptation," etc. He also prayed often himself. So what you're saying goes against what Jesus says. Why?

The whole NT is full of prayer and commands to pray. Why do you dismiss so much of the NT?

What if the word means to offer? Do you think the offer of a rosary will cause you to be heard?

 

[7thMoon]

What is a YE creationist.
And don't they beleive what is written in the bible, either ?

Young Earth Creationist = YEC

 

[GodsGrace]

THIS THREAD IS BEING LOCKED FOR REVIEW.

 

[GodsGrace]

You really don't beleive man can now walk on the Spirit instead of in the "flesh", do you?
Paul, and I, do.

John wrote the words, but not the interpretation that denies the words.
You really don't think anybody walks in the light, do you ?

Not at all.
I call the interpreters who accommodate sin "liars".

You are ignoring the command in order to justify sin.
We are provided hundreds of exhortations and admonissions to maintain the holy walk we have been reborn into.
Those "called" Christian can commit sin, but the sin will illustrate both his false repentance from sin and his failure to be reborn of God.
They were not really Christians at all.
The sin proves it.

I see them being taught in almost every book of the NT.

Your bias in favor of sin is showing.
Just as my bias of loving God is showing.

That is the only way I can describe it.
You seem to be trying to use commands not to sin in order to cement sin into the Christian life !
If your spouse says "I love you" every time you leave the house, does that mean they don't love you ?
If they say, "Fill the gas tank." does that mean you won't put gas in the car ?
When the dentist says "Keep brushing those teeth.", does that mean you must not brush your teeth.
If John says "Walk in the light", does that mean you must walk in the darkness ?
Why does it mean "you must walk in darkness" to you ?

Yours are based on what some sinner interpreted it to mean.
Some man who wanted to keep committing sin darkened the words of John to negate what John said.
They couldn't foul 1 John 5:18 though..."We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."

Your position is that Christians must commit sin.
As a man reborn of God's seed, I can tell you it is a position not born of God..

Then why not take the instruction to heart ?
Get "immersed" into Christ's death and resurrection and destroy the old man !
Become dead to sin, and walk in the Spirit instead of in the "flesh" !
Quit yielding your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

You will need to define which part of that stanza you disagree with,

If they have yet to be sanctified, they are not Christians.
Paul is writing to a mixed audience.
And, he is providing the teaching tools for future converts.
Just like I am using them today for any reader who is still walking in the "flesh" and serving sin.

YOU ARE BREAKING TOS 1.4
AS REQUESTED PREVIOUSLY,
PLEASE DO NOT REFER TO MEMBERS
AS SINNERS. THIS IS NOT A JUDGEMENT
FOR US TO MAKE.
IT ALSO MISREPRESENTS THE STATEMENTS
OF OTHERS.

DO NOT REPLY TO THIS POST IN THIS THREAD.
USE TALK WITH STAFF IF NECESSARY.

 

[GodsGrace]

You should know that by spouting all manner of absolute nonsense, like you have all over this forum for so long now, that you ARE a Pharisee. Might wana look in the mirror.

YOU HAVE CONSISTENTLY BROKEN TOS RULES ON THIS THREAD.
PLEASE REFRAIN FROM MAKING PERSONAL COMMENTS. 1.3
DO NOT MAKE FLAMING REMARKS. 1.5
USE RESPECT. 1.1
ALSO, REQUESTS OF STAFF MUST BE FOLLOWED AT ALL TIMES.

DO NOT REPLY TO THIS POST IN THIS THREAD.
USE TALK WITH STAFF IF NECESSARY.

 

[GodsGrace]

THIS THREAD IS NOW OPEN.
PLEASE FOLLOW TOS RULES.

 

[Free]

What if the word means to offer?

What word would mean “to offer”? Who or what is being offered or doing the offering?

Do you think the offer of a rosary will cause you to be heard?

Depends on the rosary but a rosary isn’t necessary.

 

[7thMoon]

What word would mean “to offer”? Who or what is being offered or doing the offering?


Depends on the rosary but a rosary isn’t necessary.

Pray not as the pagans do thinking by many repetitions that they might be heard?

 

[Free]

Pray not as the pagans do thinking by many repetitions that they might be heard?

I have no idea what this has to do with what I posted. Are you making a statement or asking a question?

 

[Tenchi]

Absolutely not.

This is one of the most disturbing popular claims among almost every single modern church and big name Preacher today. Christians are not sinners.

Sure they are.

1 John 1:8-10 (NASB)
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

1 John 2:1 (NASB)
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

1 Corinthians 3:1-3 (NASB)
1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.
2 I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able,
3 for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?
Galatians 3:1-3 (NASB)
1 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?
2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
1 Corinthians 3:11-15 (NASB)
11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.
14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.
15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

And so on.

Clearly, the record of Scripture is that born-again Christians DO sin.

Even from very early on in my Christian walk, this claim repulsed me from within. How could this be? How could Christians be calling themselves sinners?

They are saints who sin but they are not sinners in their fundamental nature anymore. They have been fully, perfectly redeemed, justified and sanctified in Jesus Christ, made "new creatures" in him.

See:
2 Corinthians 5:17
1 Corinthians 1:6, 30
Colossians 3:1-3
Revelation 1:6
Romans 8:9-16
etc.

It is the goal of Christian living to reflect the truth of one's spiritual position/identity in Christ in one's daily, mundane living, or condition. Spiritual maturity is, essentially, just a high degree of alignment between one's practical condition and one's spiritual position. But this is a life-long process, occurring gradually, the struggle with sin remaining a very real experience in the life of every born-again person.

Yes, we still stumble, but to declare that you are a sinner is to claim that you accept and embrace sin.

To define yourself this way will lead to moral and spiritual collapse, yes. "The me I see is the me I'll be."

Sin separates us from God. It is an open offense to our Savior. Why in the world would we ever want to claim to be that?

Do Christians claim to be sin? I've never heard any fellow believer make this claim...

This is all for now. My p.c. is acting funny...

 

[Corinth77777]

Absolutely not.

This is one of the most disturbing popular claims among almost every single modern church and big name Preacher today. Christians are not sinners.

Even from very early on in my Christian walk, this claim repulsed me from within. How could this be? How could Christians be calling themselves sinners? Yes, of course we've all sinned. Yes, we still stumble, but to declare that you are a sinner is to claim that you accept and embrace sin. That is absolutely the polar opposite of what the Christian Faith is all about. No true Christian is a sinner.

Sin separates us from God. It is an open offense to our Savior. Why in the world would we ever want to claim to be that?

True sincere Christians are most certainly not sinners.

Proof? Sure.

If Christians were sinners, God would never hear a single prayer ... ever.
"Now we know that God does not hear sinners; ..."
John 9:31

If Christians were sinners, God would hate all Christians and want them all dead.
"All the sinners of My people shall die by the sword, ..."
Amos 9:10
"Behold the Day of the Lord cometh, ... to lay the land desolate: and He shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it."
Isaiah 13:9
"He that committeth sin (willingly) is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning."
1 John 3:8
"... consider Him that endured such (hostility) of sinners against Himself, ..."
Hebrews 12:3

God does not count sinners among the righteous at all.
"Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful."
Psalm 1:1
"... the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous."
Psalm 1:5

One of the most obvious, and nonsensical, aspects of this contradiction is the very definition of the Christian. A Christian is a follower of Christ. Was Christ a sinner? Nothing could be further from the Truth. Christ lived a 100% sin-less life. So for all these big name Preachers to get up there in front of their massive congregations and repeatedly vomit out the nonsensical claim that Christians are sinners is literally equivalent to saying Christians are not .... Christians? How preposterous is that?

So next time you go to quote John Macarthur or Michael Brown or Billy Graham or David Jeremiah or any of the other massively famous TV Preachers, just remember how ridiculous some of what they are preaching really is.

Hi,
What does this mean to you?
John 3

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hi,
What does this mean to you?
John 3

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

It seems pretty straight forward.
Those that do righteousness come to Jesus.
In the context of John 3, ("And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.") those that love their sin, don't come to Jesus.

 

[7thMoon]

It seems pretty straight forward.
Those that do righteousness come to Jesus.
In the context of John 3, ("And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.") those that love their sin, don't come to Jesus.

And the Jews?

 

[Hopeful 2]

And the Jews?

John 3 was spoken to the Jews, but the message doesn't stop with them.
All mankind has the opportunity to either serve sin, (John 8:34), or serve God. (Matt 6:24)
We can either walk in darkness, (1 John 1:6,8,10), or we can walk in the light. (1 John 1:5,7,9)

 

[JT4444]

If you sin, you are a sinner. Christians will sin since we haven't been perfected. We all sin. Christians' sins are forgiven.

 

[7thMoon]

If you sin, you are a sinner. Christians will sin since we haven't been perfected. We all sin. Christians' sins are forgiven.

Because Christians know to atone for their wrongdeeds.

 

[Hopeful 2]

If you sin, you are a sinner. Christians will sin since we haven't been perfected. We all sin. Christians' sins are forgiven.

Thank God for making the way to turn permanently from sin, to be washed of all past sins, and be reborn of His own seed.
His seed cannot bring forth the devil's fruit ! (1 John 3:8-10)
Those reborn of God don't serve sin.

 

[GodsGrace]

If you sin, you are a sinner. Christians will sin since we haven't been perfected. We all sin. Christians' sins are forgiven.

If we can be called SINNERS,
then what are the lost called?

I believe we should be called children of God, but we will sin.
To me a sinner is someone that lives a life of sin. Like in
1 John 3:9