Are we born condemned with Adams sin...or innocent at birth?

[Christ_empowered]

i think there's a difference between God choosing to not hold one accountable and being genuinely Innocent. No human being is innocent, ever, under any circumstances, before a Holy and Just God.

 

[MarkT]

i think there's a difference between God choosing to not hold one accountable and being genuinely Innocent. No human being is innocent, ever, under any circumstances, before a Holy and Just God.

I would disagree with that. Children don't know sin. They have to be taught right and wrong.

 

[Christ_empowered]

right....God often chooses to show all kinds of people mercy, children included. That doesn't make them, or anyone else, genuinely innocent.

 

[MarkT]

right....God often chooses to show all kinds of people mercy, children included. That doesn't make them, or anyone else, genuinely innocent.

I don't know what you mean by genuinely innocent. They're children. You can't get more innocent than that.

 

[chessman]

it says we are all born with a proclivity to sin and will do so sooner than later unless we die before we get a chance.

No it doesn't.

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me. ​

It says nothing (zero) about "all of us" (one way or the other.
It says nothing about a "proclivity to sin" (it says actual sin at David's conception.
It mentions nothing about dying or chances.

You guys are a hoot, with your assumptive doctrines using this verse.

 

[chessman]

Will animals stand before the judgement seat of God?

Yes.

Matthew 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right and the goats on the left.
​

Which has about as much to do with infants being judged goats or sheep at the judgment as Trump's next tweet does.

Humans are made in the image of God - are animals?

You tell me. Then explain how the question is relevant to whether David inherited condemnation for Adam's sin at his conception.

 

[stovebolts]

I'm saying we should take passages in their context. We know for a fact that 'sin' passes on through the male seed. Romans is clear on this.

Rom 5:12
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned

If we are to place that verse in context, we have to go back to the first three chapters.
Chapter 1. Jews are guilty of sin.
Chapter 2. Gentiles are guilty of sin
Chapter 3. Both Jews and Gentils are guilty of sin. Thus, All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

This All is within the context of nations. It is not at the individual level.

The verse you posted in chapter 5 simply means all will die due to the singular event from Adam. It do us not attest to the sinfulness of every human born.
The all you underlined referenced the same all in chapter 3. It is at a national level, not the individual level.

With this verse in its proper context, I do t see how it supports your assumption. Please correct me if you believe I am in error by showing me my error.

 

[Nathan]

I would disagree with that. Children don't know sin. They have to be taught right and wrong.

Do children have to be taught to disobey?

I never taught my children to, they did it on their own from a very early age.

 

[Nathan]

If we are to place that verse in context, we have to go back to the first three chapters.
Chapter 1. Jews are guilty of sin.
Chapter 2. Gentiles are guilty of sin
Chapter 3. Both Jews and Gentils are guilty of sin. Thus, All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

This All is within the context of nations. It is not at the individual level.

The verse you posted in chapter 5 simply means all will die due to the singular event from Adam. It do us not attest to the sinfulness of every human born.
The all you underlined referenced the same all in chapter 3. It is at a national level, not the individual level.

With this verse in its proper context, I do t see how it supports your assumption. Please correct me if you believe I am in error by showing me my error.

We need to be very basic. God is a just God. That very specifically means that He will not judge a human for another humans sin. Physical death is not a judgement, it is a result. Eternal death is a judgement, not a result.

Judgement implies a judge made a descision on something. If there is nothing to judge, then a person does not get judged. We know that it is appointed for man to die and to face judgement. All men, not just some.

Now, we know that those who are judged will be only split into two groups. Let's call them 'right and wrong'. The right ones go into Gods kingdom, the wrong ones into eternal death.

So, the only way someone does not go to the wrong place is one of two things. They are not judged or they are judged and found right. We know the first cannot be, so that only leaves the second. The only way into the kingdom of heaven is to be judged right.

The only way to be judged right is to be found 'right' in Christ. Infants are found right in Christ. But the only reason why they are is because they need to be. If there was no need to be found right, there would be no need to be found in Christ.

Why would an infant need to be found in Christ? Simple, because they were born with the propensity to sin - even if they never reached a point where they 'practiced' that ability.

Sin is missing the mark. Children come into this world, from the moment of conception, unable to hit the mark. It is proven that not a single human could ever hit the mark. So, even if an infant was to live until adulthoood, they would never hit the mark. No one can.

That is why they need a Savior. That is why they are safe in Christ. God is a just God, a God of Salvation - not condemnation. Infants are saved because God is just - He cannot judge a human to eternal death who does not choose it. Therefore, a child who did not choose right or wrong - cannot be judged to eternal death, but they need a Savior because they cannot hit the mark.

I know that's a lot, and we can break it down if needed.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Are we born condemned with Adams sin...or innocent at birth?

hello Cygnus, dirtfarmer here

Genesis 5:3 says that we were born in the likeness and image of Adam after the fall. Adam was was a sinner after the fall , so that would make his offspring sinners. So, we are born with a nature to sin, a sinful nature.

 

[Jim Parker]

You guys are a hoot, with your assumptive doctrines using this verse.

"You guys"?

It seems to me to be saying his mother and father did (not Him).

You guys are a hoot, with your assumptive doctrines using this verse.

 

[Jim Parker]

And I'm saying (subject to correction) that Ps 51:5 doesn't say David sinned on the night of his conception. It seems to me to be saying his mother and father did (not Him).

What sin did David's parents commit?

 

[markathome]

What sin did David's parents commit?

Some sexual act in a pagan temple or the milkman?

 

[Jim Parker]

Some sexual act in a pagan temple or the milkman?

Eggs Ackley

 

[markathome]

chessman said: ↑
And I'm saying (subject to correction) that Ps 51:5 doesn't say David sinned on the night of his conception. It seems to me to be saying his mother and father did (not Him)

What sin did David's parents commit?

I asked my wife and she said the milkman, only thing I could think was something weird in a pagan temple, so it's only 1.2 my fault?

 

[chessman]

What sin did David's parents commit?

You shouldn't have to ask.
"Iniquity".
Iniquity "in his conception". Just like it says. Does it say anything about Adam or chances???

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me. ​

I asked my wife and she said the milkman, only thing I could think was something weird

Did she happen to say if the milkman's name was Adam cause I've always wondered where Adam is mentioned in Ps 51:5.

 

[stovebolts]

We need to be very basic. God is a just God. That very specifically means that He will not judge a human for another humans sin. Physical death is not a judgement, it is a result. Eternal death is a judgement, not a result.

Judgement implies a judge made a descision on something. If there is nothing to judge, then a person does not get judged. We know that it is appointed for man to die and to face judgement. All men, not just some.

Now, we know that those who are judged will be only split into two groups. Let's call them 'right and wrong'. The right ones go into Gods kingdom, the wrong ones into eternal death.

So, the only way someone does not go to the wrong place is one of two things. They are not judged or they are judged and found right. We know the first cannot be, so that only leaves the second. The only way into the kingdom of heaven is to be judged right.

The only way to be judged right is to be found 'right' in Christ. Infants are found right in Christ. But the only reason why they are is because they need to be. If there was no need to be found right, there would be no need to be found in Christ.

Why would an infant need to be found in Christ? Simple, because they were born with the propensity to sin - even if they never reached a point where they 'practiced' that ability.

Sin is missing the mark. Children come into this world, from the moment of conception, unable to hit the mark. It is proven that not a single human could ever hit the mark. So, even if an infant was to live until adulthoood, they would never hit the mark. No one can.

That is why they need a Savior. That is why they are safe in Christ. God is a just God, a God of Salvation - not condemnation. Infants are saved because God is just - He cannot judge a human to eternal death who does not choose it. Therefore, a child who did not choose right or wrong - cannot be judged to eternal death, but they need a Savior because they cannot hit the mark.

I know that's a lot, and we can break it down if needed.

I appreciate the time you spent writing this. And I am glad that we both come to the same conclusion that infants, children and if I may, mentally handicapped people will be found right in Christ.

I understand this topic to be one of being condemned to Hell from inception. If I am misunderstood, please correct me.

Thus, the premise of this OP is simple. All are born with a sinful nature and as such, All require a savior to save them from their depravity.

You said earlier that an infant had the propensity to sin, which is why they need a savior. My rebuttle is simple. If our Lord is just, why would he condemn the innocent for a sin they had not committed.

While every soul will be judged, it will be done justly. A child will not be condemned for the sins of others, including Adams.

True, a child will face judgment. But it will be a just trial.

Now then, we are talking about having a sinful nature. One is not found guilty until an offence is committed in either thought or action.

Please afford me one other comment as I ramble, and it is the highest concern I have. You posted a verse from Romans 5 highlighting all sinned touting context with the agenda of supporting a sinful nature.

While I believe we have a sinful nature, I tried to bring the proper context to the verse you posted. That verse does not address people at an individual level. The all that you bolded was at the national level. As such, it cannot be used properly as the individual level to show infants are guilty, let alone have committed a sin in the womb or at birth.

If you disagree with my explanation of Romans 5, please show me from Romans why the All is at the individual level.

 

[Cygnus]

I realize you are not John Gill and he's not here to ask, but in your opinion, why do you understand David received Adam's personal iniquity in the womb but yet find it not understandable that he was brought forth in the sin of his mother at his conception?

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me. ​

How come the verse doesn't say I was brought forth in sin from Adam?

When you can explain the sin of Davids mother....get back to me.
Meanwhile I've shown where the sin of Adams was imputed to David. I even supported that verse with other verses from the Bible.

 

[Cygnus]

im getting lost in this discussion. isn't the idea that --all-- human beings are born hell bound and in need of Christ part of Christian Doctrine 101?

Yes.
Some people here want to elevate mankind way above what we really are. They don't understand just how far mankind has fallen.

 

[Cygnus]

We are not born with the knowledge of the law of sin and death. So I would say innocent.

Thanks for the reply.