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Are we born condemned with Adams sin...or innocent at birth?

Are we born condemned...or innocent?

  • Total voters
    13
reba said:
His grace and mercy so far beyond us..
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I don't really know if I could forgive someone who nailed me to a tree. How bout u?

But I bet you a dollar I could 'forgive' a pre-born baby of Adam's and Eve's sins.

Luke 23:34a But Jesus was saying, “Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing.”​
 
chessman said:
I don't really know if I could forgive someone who nailed me to a tree. How bout u?
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That's what you would be expected to do according to scripture.
Mat 6:14-15 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."
 
StoveBolts said:
Really?
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Exodus 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
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Is 45:7
KJV I make peace, and create evil
NKJV I make peace and create calamity
NLT I send good times and bad times.
NIV I bring prosperity and create disaster
NASB Causing well-being and creating calamity
Bringing disaster upon the sons of Israel who persist in sin is 100% in compliance with the Law of Moses.

Ex 32:14
KJV the LORD repented of the evil
NKJV the LORD relented from the harm
NLT the LORD changed his mind about the terrible disaster
NIV the LORD relented and did not bring on his people the disaster
NASB the LORD changed His mind about the harm
The Lord relented and did not punish the people for their rebellion.

So, yeah, really.
 
I believe we were all born under sin and subject to death. The fact that Jesus had to come in the flesh through a virgin, born without sin so as to die and take the power of death away from Satan, seems to prove that point. Jesus is therefore the power of the resurrection. Hebrews 2:14. Colossians 1:18.
 
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I've removed posts that were personal and not productive in the discussion. This thread is now open. Please focus your posts on the topic; not the member, and don't mock other members by suggesting they can't be serious.
 
chessman said:
If God had not told Adam to not eat from that one tree in the Garden and Eve/Eve had then ate it, would her action have been evil?
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Yes, because she was disobedient to what God Himself told her....Adam? would have stayed innocent, but Eve would have had to be put to death and another mate for Adam, created.
 
In reference to Romans 5 and the word All, I said the All was at a national level, not the individual level.

You replied,

Nathan said:
I think it is about coming into this world condemned -....

Now, as far as what you are talking about, national vs personal level, its irregardless because if you hold a nation 'guilty' of something, then by implication all of its 'citizens'(persons) are also guilty. This is what Paul was trying to get across, its not just the people of Gentiles - or the people of Jews - but all people. He was making the point that you cannot be born out of the nature of sin - and if you cannot be born out of the nature, then you cannot escape it by death either.

Remember, we are not sinners because we sin - we sin being a direct result of being a human who is naturally turned in the direction of sin. Jesus, our Savior, turns us back to God - thereby making it possible to hit the mark.
t
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If All is to mean every human, regardless of contevt, then truly All men will be saved.

1 Timothy 2:4
King James Bible
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

We must be consistent in our approach to interpretation, lest we wander from the original intent don't you agree?

Again, I believe Paul is referring to the All in Romans 3 and 5 at a national level and not the individual level. Thus, infants are not guilty of sin, for they have not committed any sin. When they are judged, they will be judged fairly.

Judge not, lest ye be judged. For the measure you judge others. Will be the measure you yourself will be judged.
 
StoveBolts said:
If All is to mean every human, regardless of contevt, then truly All men will be saved.

1 Timothy 2:4
King James Bible
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

We must be consistent in our approach to interpretation, lest we wander from the original intent don't you agree?

Again, I believe Paul is referring to the All in Romans 3 and 5 at a national level and not the individual level. Thus, infants are not guilty of sin, for they have not committed any sin. When they are judged, they will be judged fairly.
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1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Who's Will? God our Saviour.
What's the Will of God? That all men might be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
What did God our Saviour do? Gave Himself as a ransom for all

Who will have(wishes?) all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


will
verb
  1. expressing the future tense.
    "you will regret it when you are older"
    • expressing a strong intention or assertion about the future.
      "come what may, I will succeed"
  2. 2.
    expressing inevitable events.
    "accidents will happen"
    synonyms: tend to, have a tendency to, are bound to, do, are going to, must
    "accidents will happen"
  3. 3.
    expressing a request.
    "will you stop here, please"
    • expressing desire, consent, or willingness.
      "will you have a cognac?"
      synonyms: want, wish, please, see/think fit, think best, like, choose, prefer
      "do what you will"
  4. 4.
    expressing facts about ability or capacity.
    "a rock so light that it will float on water"
  5. 5.
    expressing habitual behavior.
    "she will dance for hours"
    • (pronounced stressing “will”) indicating annoyance about the habitual behavior described.
      "he will keep intruding"
  6. 6.
    expressing probability or expectation about something in the present.
    "they will be miles away by now"

Who will have(wishes?) all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
 
StoveBolts said:
In reference to Romans 5 and the word All, I said the All was at a national level, not the individual level.

You replied,



If All is to mean every human, regardless of contevt, then truly All men will be saved.

1 Timothy 2:4
King James Bible
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

We must be consistent in our approach to interpretation, lest we wander from the original intent don't you agree?

Again, I believe Paul is referring to the All in Romans 3 and 5 at a national level and not the individual level. Thus, infants are not guilty of sin, for they have not committed any sin. When they are judged, they will be judged fairly.

Judge not, lest ye be judged. For the measure you judge others. Will be the measure you yourself will be judged.
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We should be consistent. I agree.

1Ti 2:3-4
This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Paul tells Timothy that God "desires" all people to be saved. The word used, thélō, means to have pleasure in. So what Paul says is that God would have great pleasure for everyone to know the truth and be saved. It is quite the opposite of the "all" in Romans 5.

Rom 5:18
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

The difference here is there is no conditional phrase, like the passage in Timothy, which precedes "all". So the "all" in Romans does mean all. We know it means "all" because if the first "all" is not truly "all", then the second "all" is not either. If the second is not true, then Jesus act of righteousness does not lead to justification and life for all men - we know this statement cannot be true.

Infants are 'guilty'(which simply means 'bound') of having the inherited propensity to sin. They will be judged justly being found in Christ.

We must, I repeat must, understand that it is not the acts of sin that condemn us - we sin because we are born into its slavery. Jesus redeemed us, bought us from that slavery - this is true even of infants.
 
Cygnus said:
Psalm 51:5 tells us.... and in sin did my mother conceive me.

David was conceived. You stated "only speaks of the mother,"....wasn't there a father involved? Doesn't conception require two people? Dad may not have been mentioned in this verse, but dad was required...for conception. So for you to state "David must have gotten it thru his mother.".....isn't a good deduction. Davids dad had a role in davids conception.
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1) Sin is transgression of the law (1 Jn 3:4) not an idea or substance that is passed from one person to another.

2) Psa 51:5 would be talking about the sin of the mother;
in sin did my mother conveive me
in a drunken rage a husband beat his wife.

It is the husband in the drunken rage as it is the mother that was in sin

3) Psa 51:5 shows the mother was in sin, does not mention the father at all, so if sin were a substance passed from one to another then David got sin from his mother. Ezekiel 18:20 "The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father,..." so sin is not passed from father to son.


That's true said:
49 informs us.....[/B]And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man,....the earthly man presented here is Adam. We are born in the image of the fallen Adam which includes Adams sin nature.
The bible tells us we are IN Adam...1 Cor 15:22 For as indeed in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. All of mankind is Adam progeny. All of Adams progeny has a sin nature that must be dealt with.
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Original sin is negated in Rom 5:12 it is not mentioned at all. The verse gives us the reason death passed upon all and that reason is "all have sinned" which is far removed from all inheriting Adam's sin.


Cygnus said:
I don't think the purpose of those chapters was for the purpose of explaining our sin nature. He for the most part explained all men sin...why do all men sin? I would suggest we have a sin nature.
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Paul is proving all men, Jews and Gentiles are sinners. So if original sin/total depravity were factual then they would be "THE" reason Jew and Gentile are under sin. Where would there be any better place to speak of original sin/total depravity than in a context proving men are sinners?

Paul proves men are sinners by showing transgression committed, (1 John 3:4) not what was inherited. Men are sinners for they choose to sin and not forced to sin by a nature they inherited. Such an idea makes men a victim of sin and not responsible for sin.


Cygnus said:
What does the bible have to say about the wages of sin?
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Wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23) and death here refers to spiritual death as "death" here is contrasted to 'eternal life'.

My point remains that men die physically, as Christ, infants as a consequence of Adam sinning not due to inheriting Adam's sin.


Romans 5:12 says....Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—

Sin was the result of one man. Adam. for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, Romans 3:23. We sin because we have a sin nature. Why else would all men sin? If we didn't have a sin nature one would think there is at least one person..aside from Christ who would never have sinned....
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Sin entered the world by the actions of one man. Adam was not created with a sin nature yet he still sinned. His sinning therefore was a result of a free will choice and not a sin nature. So a sin nature is not required for one to be a sinner. Likewise we today are sinners for the same reason Adam was a sinner in we choose to sin as did Adam and not because of a sin nature which Adam nor we today have. Even though sin entered the world by Adam and man has been effected by sin, man is still created in the image of God (1 Corinthians 11:7; James 3:9). So man today is still made ("are made" per James 3:9) with inherit characteristics like unto God's characteristics as having a free will as God has (Matthew 23:37), thinking and reasoning ability as God has (Isaiah 1:18), a sense of morality (Romans 2:14-15). This totally, completely eliminates the idea of man being born with a sin nature for that is not in the image of God.
 
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chessman said:
My question was one in which the scenario was God had not issued a prohibition about eating from that one tree.
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The more one studies the Jewish faith, the clearer it becomes that scripture teaches discernment above ridged condemnation.

Paul says that Eve was deceived by the serpent. Paul also talks of willful disobedience (Adam) and disobedience caused by deception.

The two are not treated the same in scripture which is why scripture says that teachers will be judged at a higher standard, and those who lead children away will be dealt with harshly.

So, while Eve disobeyed Gods command, the penalty did not come through her because she was led astray. Death came through Adam because he willingly disobeyed God and was not decieved.
 
Nathan said:
We should be consistent. I agree.

1Ti 2:3-4
This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Paul tells Timothy that God "desires" all people to be saved. The word used, thélō, means to have pleasure in. So what Paul says is that God would have great pleasure for everyone to know the truth and be saved. It is quite the opposite of the "all" in Romans 5.

Rom 5:18
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

The difference here is there is no conditional phrase, like the passage in Timothy, which precedes "all". So the "all" in Romans does mean all. We know it means "all" because if the first "all" is not truly "all", then the second "all" is not either. If the second is not true, then Jesus act of righteousness does not lead to justification and life for all men - we know this statement cannot be true.

Infants are 'guilty'(which simply means 'bound') of having the inherited propensity to sin. They will be judged justly being found in Christ.

We must, I repeat must, understand that it is not the acts of sin that condemn us - we sin because we are born into its slavery. Jesus redeemed us, bought us from that slavery - this is true even of infants.
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I disagree. Have g a conditional statement does not change the meaning of all based on your theology. That is intellectually dishonest at best.

That is akin to saying God desires some to be saved, but not all.

And by the way, Adam was created with a sin nature, else he would not have had the capacity to sin.
 
Seabass said:
Original sin is negated in Rom 5:12 it is not mentioned at all. The verse gives us the reason death passed upon all and that reason is "all have sinned" which is far removed from all inheriting Adam's sin.
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Romans 5:12-21
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world,(Adam not Eve)
and death by sin; (eat tree you die & you sinned by breaking the Law)
and so death passed upon all men,(Adam unto Eve's childbirth, the sorrow of death passed upon all men since all men now die. Genesis 3:16)
for that (What deed? Psalms 51:5)
all have sinned:

for that?
 
Seabass said:
Original sin/sinful nature pure products of man and not of God as the bible shows.
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I agree. Augustine and his rhetoric while arguing against universalism is what produced the doctrine on original sin. However, he needed baptism as a truth to push the doctrine and hence, the practice of infant baptism was also affirmed.
 
markathome said:
Romans 5:12-21
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world,(Adam not Eve)
and death by sin; (eat tree you die & you sinned by breaking the Law)
and so death passed upon all men,(Adam unto Eve's childbirth, the sorrow of death passed upon all men since all men now die. Genesis 3:16)
for that (What deed? Psalms 51:5)
all have sinned:

for that?
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"Have sinned" shows personal choice and culpability in committing sin.
What transgression occurred at conception to make him/her a sinner? No transgression occurs so one cannot be a sinner at conception.
 
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