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Are we born with a sin nature?

Rom 5:17 "For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)"

The verse just says "death reigned by one" and does not say death reigns for all inheirted Adam's sin.

Generally you seem to be right on in understanding scripture. However, I think you missed this one.
I have not read the whole thread, but in the first three pages no one had yet even determined if we have a sin nature or not. Scripture never states that we have a sin nature. It would be an impossiblity. A nature is the essence, or if we had a sin nature we would be sin. Yet sin is never described as a state of being. It is always described as an act of missing the mark. So sin itself is an act.

In the story of Adam we all seem to know that Adam sinned. But most, maybe all of you, are missing the consequence of that sin. For Adam it had two consequences. First, it spiritually separated him from God. He broke the relationship in which he was created. Man was not created to die, but to be in an eternal relationship of love with God.

In Gen 3:19 we have the judgement upon Adam and the world for that matter. That judgement was death, physical death. Man would die and return to the dust from whence he came. The world was also subjected to decay and corruption. So, Adam became a mortal being, subject to physical death. He would live a short biological existance but die. There would never be an eternal existance for man. I might add that God told Adam the solution Gen 3:15 before he told him the condemnation of death.

Now lets jump to Romans. Rom 5:12 tells us that it is death which man inherited from Adam, a mortal nature. We are all born dead, a mortal nature. It is this nature that influences or causes us to sin so easily or be sinful. Scripture says we have a sinful nature. A nature cannot sin, but it cause or influences us to sin.

To supplement this we need to go to Heb 2:14 explans why Christ became Incarnated, that is assumed our human nature. For what purpose. That through his death (bearing our mortal nature) in the flesh, He might destroy him who has the power of death. This victory over death was to release those (all of mankind) who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
Rom 5:12 states quite clearly that it is through the condemnation of Adam that death spread to all men. Which explains the fact that a baby is born mortal and is mortal at conception. Which explains why fetuses die. It is not at all due to sin. Since man is not born with a sin nature, but a mortal nature. We are born innocent, or not sinners. We need to commit a sin before we are sinners.

If the first part of the verse means we all have inherited Adam's sin, the second part of the verse must mean we all inherit the gift of righteousness. If we are all sinners in Adam then we must all be saved in Christ and you have universalism.
We do not inherit Adam's sin, nor any guilt from Adam. Adam will answer for his sin, and his own guilt. We will also answer for our sin and guilt. This is the fallacy of the doctrine of Original Sin.

Then lets go to Rom 5:17. Here again it clearly states that death reigned through the act of one's man's offence.
Now, Rom 5:18, the huge THEREFORE..... Notice that judgement came to man through that one man's offense, namely condemnation (death) even so through the one righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. This is an equation that we see repeated in scripture in many places. Here it is in summary.

If all men die (physically) because of the condemnation to death through Adam, so all men will be made righteous, given life (physical) through the one Jesus Christ. This summary is also found in I Cor 15:22. It is stated in Rom 11:32, It is stated in Col 1:20 which then aligns with John 6:39. In II Cor 5:18 it is also stated, but includes the world, not just mankind. Rom 3:25 also makes the same equation.
This is NOT universalism. This has nothing directly to do with our relationship with Christ. Christ did not save our souls on the Cross.

Our personal salvation, or the relationship for which we were created, is all done through faith. We are justified by faith and saved through faith. This all became possible because man now has eternal life, an eternal existance again. The only question remaining is whether we spend that eternal existance with Christ or apart from Him.

Christ accomplished two things by His death and Resurrection. The primary one, our eternal existance was retored through His Incarnation and resurrection. All men will be raised in the last day. This redemption created the need for heaven and hell. If Christ had never come and man remained condemned to death, we would simply dissolve into dust. No need for heaven or hell.

The second work of Christ on the Cross was his sacrifice for sin. He became the perfect Lamb for the one-time sacrifice for all sin, or meaning Christ atoned for the sin of the world. Once Christ returned to heaven and sits on His throne, He becomes our High Priest, administering the sacrifice for sin. When we repent, or confess our sin, we will be forgiven our sins. Those who believe and live according to his will, reject sin, keep from sinning, so as not to separate ourselves from Christ as did Adam, and be condemned to spiritual death, also known as the Second Death.

Heaven or Hell becomes the consequence of our choice to enter into the same eternal relationship Adam enjoyed in the Garden but lost due to his sin and the condemnation or consequence of that sin, death. This is why all Christians have always believed in the resurrection of the dead. Christ raised our mortal natures to life through His Incarnation by becoming precisely like us in every respect.
 
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Cassian,

From what I understand, the idea that man is born without a sin nature is an old heresy. I believe that to be Pelagianism. Also, I believe that to be a Mormon teaching as well.

- Davies
 
Cassian,

From what I understand, the idea that man is born without a sin nature is an old heresy. I believe that to be Pelagianism. Also, I believe that to be a Mormon teaching as well.

- Davies
Sin nature was adopted or used by Augustine in his debate with Pelagius. that is the beginning of the doctrine of Original Sin. The error of Pelagius is that he believed that no man was effected by any thing Adam did. He believed that we all are born just as Adam was created without a mortal nature. He believed that each person must commit a sin, then death would be the sentence, the same as with Adam. Adam was simply a model of what would happen to each man. This is what was denied by the Church. I do not know the particulars of Mormonism regarding our mortal nature or the lack thereof.
 
Hi BornAgain,

This still doesn't address Romans 12-19.

Romans 5:19

New King James Version (NKJV)

19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners,

- Davies
Lets look at the "whole" verse,

Romans 5:19 (KJV)
19. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

The half you quoted: "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners"

This half of the verse is put in complete contrast with the other side of the comma, one cannot read anything into this half without reading into the other as well, also note there is no mention what so ever of new borns.

The second half of the verse "so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

If we read into the first half the verse, remembering these are in complete contrast, to say one is born with sin in the first half of the verse since the "disobedience" of Adam, one too would have to say since by Christ "Obedience" one would be made righteous.

So even if one tries to read it the way you are, then since Christ, a child is "born without sin", the problem is, even though this works to the result of a child born sinless, The bible does not teach it this way and is the same error of reading in something into the first half of the verse is again done in the second.

This is because what is actually contrasted is not "sin" but "Obedience"

Children are born sinless since Adam, but will sin "like" Adam through "disobedience", likewise since Christ, Children are born sinless but will be through "obedience" like "Christ", made righteous.

Romans 5:19 (KJV)
19. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 
If we are not born with it who teaches it to us?

Hi Reba,

Everyone does what's in their nature. Children don't know how to act contrary to their nature as is evident in adults as well. That's why we need to be taught what is good. The Law of God reveals our nature well enough. The entire history of man should be enough to inform us of who we are but we have pretty thick noggins.
Proverbs 20:6

New King James Version (NKJV)

6 Most men will proclaim each his own goodness,
But who can find a faithful man?


- Davies
 
Generally you seem to be right on in understanding scripture. However, I think you missed this one.
I have not read the whole thread, but in the first three pages no one had yet even determined if we have a sin nature or not. Scripture never states that we have a sin nature. It would be an impossiblity. A nature is the essence, or if we had a sin nature we would be sin. Yet sin is never described as a state of being. It is always described as an act of missing the mark. So sin itself is an act.

In the story of Adam we all seem to know that Adam sinned. But most, maybe all of you, are missing the consequence of that sin. For Adam it had two consequences. First, it spiritually separated him from God. He broke the relationship in which he was created. Man was not created to die, but to be in an eternal relationship of love with God.

In Gen 3:19 we have the judgement upon Adam and the world for that matter. That judgement was death, physical death. Man would die and return to the dust from whence he came. The world was also subjected to decay and corruption. So, Adam became a mortal being, subject to physical death. He would live a short biological existance but die. There would never be an eternal existance for man. I might add that God told Adam the solution Gen 3:15 before he told him the condemnation of death.

Now lets jump to Romans. Rom 5:12 tells us that it is death which man inherited from Adam, a mortal nature. We are all born dead, a mortal nature. It is this nature that influences or causes us to sin so easily or be sinful. Scripture says we have a sinful nature. A nature cannot sin, but it cause or influences us to sin.

To supplement this we need to go to Heb 2:14 explans why Christ became Incarnated, that is assumed our human nature. For what purpose. That through his death (bearing our mortal nature) in the flesh, He might destroy him who has the power of death. This victory over death was to release those (all of mankind) who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
Rom 5:12 states quite clearly that it is through the condemnation of Adam that death spread to all men. Which explains the fact that a baby is born mortal and is mortal at conception. Which explains why fetuses die. It is not at all due to sin. Since man is not born with a sin nature, but a mortal nature. We are born innocent, or not sinners. We need to commit a sin before we are sinners.

We do not inherit Adam's sin, nor any guilt from Adam. Adam will answer for his sin, and his own guilt. We will also answer for our sin and guilt. This is the fallacy of the doctrine of Original Sin.

Then lets go to Rom 5:17. Here again it clearly states that death reigned through the act of one's man's offence.
Now, Rom 5:18, the huge THEREFORE..... Notice that judgement came to man through that one man's offense, namely condemnation (death) even so through the one righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. This is an equation that we see repeated in scripture in many places. Here it is in summary.

If all men die (physically) because of the condemnation to death through Adam, so all men will be made righteous, given life (physical) through the one Jesus Christ. This summary is also found in I Cor 15:22. It is stated in Rom 11:32, It is stated in Col 1:20 which then aligns with John 6:39. In II Cor 5:18 it is also stated, but includes the world, not just mankind. Rom 3:25 also makes the same equation.
This is NOT universalism. This has nothing directly to do with our relationship with Christ. Christ did not save our souls on the Cross.

Our personal salvation, or the relationship for which we were created, is all done through faith. We are justified by faith and saved through faith. This all became possible because man now has eternal life, an eternal existance again. The only question remaining is whether we spend that eternal existance with Christ or apart from Him.

Christ accomplished two things by His death and Resurrection. The primary one, our eternal existance was retored through His Incarnation and resurrection. All men will be raised in the last day. This redemption created the need for heaven and hell. If Christ had never come and man remained condemned to death, we would simply dissolve into dust. No need for heaven or hell.

The second work of Christ on the Cross was his sacrifice for sin. He became the perfect Lamb for the one-time sacrifice for all sin, or meaning Christ atoned for the sin of the world. Once Christ returned to heaven and sits on His throne, He becomes our High Priest, administering the sacrifice for sin. When we repent, or confess our sin, we will be forgiven our sins. Those who believe and live according to his will, reject sin, keep from sinning, so as not to separate ourselves from Christ as did Adam, and be condemned to spiritual death, also known as the Second Death.

Heaven or Hell becomes the consequence of our choice to enter into the same eternal relationship Adam enjoyed in the Garden but lost due to his sin and the condemnation or consequence of that sin, death. This is why all Christians have always believed in the resurrection of the dead. Christ raised our mortal natures to life through His Incarnation by becoming precisely like us in every respect.

Christ was not like us in every aspect as He was not mortal as we are, but a Spirit which is God himself that took on the form of flesh as even though he was beaten and bruised for our iniquity he never uttered a sinful word against those who had him beaten or for those who beat him. Jesus was as mortal flesh on the cross, as mortal flesh laid in a borrowed tomb raised as in mortal flesh form as he was seen by many and even showed Thomas the nail prints in his hands and feet, was seen taken up to heaven as in mortal form, but once in heaven is Spirit form and will return in that of a mortal form for all man to see him return.

I'm not sure if you meant that everyone are now made righteous because of Jesus sacrifice for all mankind or just those who have repented and through faith have accepted Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. Could you clear that up for me please?

We are not given physical life through Christ as you have stated, but given a new Spiritual life, John 3:3, that connects us back to Gods love through Christ Jesus as this mortal body will return to the dust of the ground from whence it was formed as once in the ground the flesh will rot away from the bone and the bone to dust and it is our spirit ,1Corinthians 15:14, that will be raised when Christ returns as we will all stand in judgement whether Gods judgement and condemned to hell fire or Christ judgement as a good and faithful servant.
 
Good morning,

I must say, this is a lovely topic to be waking to. If not for the beautiful cross the Lord has given me to cling to, I might see the subject of sin as the most depressing.

What comes from the heart of man?

Mark 7:21-23

New King James Version (NKJV)

21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within and defile a man.”


The descriptions and sins don't originate from without, they originate from within. Words often fail me, so I quote.

[FONT=&quot]--all of us have by nature such a heart as Jesus here describes! The seeds of all the evils here mentioned, lie hidden within us all. They may lie dormant all our lives. They may be kept down by . . .
the fear of consequences;
the restraint of public opinion;
the dread of discovery; or
the desire to be thought respectable.

... [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]The man that does not glory in the Gospel, can surely know little of the plague that is within him. -- J. C. Ryle, "The Gospel of Mark", 1857
[/FONT]

[/FONT]
I think the closer we get to God, we should be able to see our sin more clearly. Paul's progression of sanctification lead him to say, 'I'm the least of the apostles,' to, 'I'm the least of the saints,' to, 'I'm the chief of sinners.' Because Paul understood his sin, he was better able to know the grace of God found only in Jesus; the One who always existed, second Person of the Trinity.

I think we should be able to say that the heart of man is the nature of man. Who can forget Jeremiah 17:9?

You know that beautiful cross?; the one that was soaked with blood. Do you see those beautiful thorns piercing Jesus' head? How about that beautiful whip that shredded the skin and muscles of God in the flesh? When you see Jesus in this condition, bleeding to death, hanging with the shame of His nakedness for the world to see, gasping for air, you have to wonder who we are that our redemption required such a payment.

- Davies
 
That's pretty funny. Jacob certainly did not hate Leah.

God did however HATE Esau as in HATE.

Gods every intention was, is and will be the removal of the flesh/natural man who's flesh is in weakness, corruption and dishonor whom 'every person' currently is in the flesh regardless of their 'choices' or 'age' or even their 'beliefs.'

None will dance past that graveyard of the flesh man.

God is no respecter of any person in this regards.

s


Gen 29:31 "And when the LORD saw that Leah [was] hated, he opened her womb: but Rachel [was] barren. "

Was Leah rally hated in the emotional sense of being despised? No, for verse 30 says "and he loved also Rachel more than Leah" so hate as used in the bible can mean love less.

Lk 14:26 "If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

Do you hate your mother, father, brothers, sisters as Jesus said to hate them here in this verse?


Again Paul's quote is taken from Malachi 1 where God's 'hate' was directed towards Edom and not the individual Esau. Esau had been dead many cienturies by the time Malachi 1 was written. Jacob's name was sometimes used in referring to Israel as Esau's name is somethimes used in referring to Edom, Gen 36:1, 19
 
I agree with this BornAgain!
We aren't born with bad habits, we learn them throughout life.

Once Adam transgressed, he opened the door of sin to the world, he was no longer protected from it in the Garden, therefore we are not born with sin, we are a creation of God even today, and he does not and will not create us a sinner, but it is the first thing we come in contact with once be are born, we are not under the protection of God in the Garden because of Adams Sin. he did not let sin into the garden, he let Adam out, he had a choice to obey stay protected, or disobey and open the door.
 
Generally you seem to be right on in understanding scripture. However, I think you missed this one.
I have not read the whole thread, but in the first three pages no one had yet even determined if we have a sin nature or not. Scripture never states that we have a sin nature. It would be an impossiblity. A nature is the essence, or if we had a sin nature we would be sin. Yet sin is never described as a state of being. It is always described as an act of missing the mark. So sin itself is an act.

In the story of Adam we all seem to know that Adam sinned. But most, maybe all of you, are missing the consequence of that sin. For Adam it had two consequences. First, it spiritually separated him from God. He broke the relationship in which he was created. Man was not created to die, but to be in an eternal relationship of love with God.

In Gen 3:19 we have the judgement upon Adam and the world for that matter. That judgement was death, physical death. Man would die and return to the dust from whence he came. The world was also subjected to decay and corruption. So, Adam became a mortal being, subject to physical death. He would live a short biological existance but die. There would never be an eternal existance for man. I might add that God told Adam the solution Gen 3:15 before he told him the condemnation of death.

Now lets jump to Romans. Rom 5:12 tells us that it is death which man inherited from Adam, a mortal nature. We are all born dead, a mortal nature. It is this nature that influences or causes us to sin so easily or be sinful. Scripture says we have a sinful nature. A nature cannot sin, but it cause or influences us to sin.

To supplement this we need to go to Heb 2:14 explans why Christ became Incarnated, that is assumed our human nature. For what purpose. That through his death (bearing our mortal nature) in the flesh, He might destroy him who has the power of death. This victory over death was to release those (all of mankind) who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
Rom 5:12 states quite clearly that it is through the condemnation of Adam that death spread to all men. Which explains the fact that a baby is born mortal and is mortal at conception. Which explains why fetuses die. It is not at all due to sin. Since man is not born with a sin nature, but a mortal nature. We are born innocent, or not sinners. We need to commit a sin before we are sinners.

We do not inherit Adam's sin, nor any guilt from Adam. Adam will answer for his sin, and his own guilt. We will also answer for our sin and guilt. This is the fallacy of the doctrine of Original Sin.

Then lets go to Rom 5:17. Here again it clearly states that death reigned through the act of one's man's offence.
Now, Rom 5:18, the huge THEREFORE..... Notice that judgement came to man through that one man's offense, namely condemnation (death) even so through the one righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. This is an equation that we see repeated in scripture in many places. Here it is in summary.

If all men die (physically) because of the condemnation to death through Adam, so all men will be made righteous, given life (physical) through the one Jesus Christ. This summary is also found in I Cor 15:22. It is stated in Rom 11:32, It is stated in Col 1:20 which then aligns with John 6:39. In II Cor 5:18 it is also stated, but includes the world, not just mankind. Rom 3:25 also makes the same equation.
This is NOT universalism. This has nothing directly to do with our relationship with Christ. Christ did not save our souls on the Cross.

Our personal salvation, or the relationship for which we were created, is all done through faith. We are justified by faith and saved through faith. This all became possible because man now has eternal life, an eternal existance again. The only question remaining is whether we spend that eternal existance with Christ or apart from Him.

Christ accomplished two things by His death and Resurrection. The primary one, our eternal existance was retored through His Incarnation and resurrection. All men will be raised in the last day. This redemption created the need for heaven and hell. If Christ had never come and man remained condemned to death, we would simply dissolve into dust. No need for heaven or hell.

The second work of Christ on the Cross was his sacrifice for sin. He became the perfect Lamb for the one-time sacrifice for all sin, or meaning Christ atoned for the sin of the world. Once Christ returned to heaven and sits on His throne, He becomes our High Priest, administering the sacrifice for sin. When we repent, or confess our sin, we will be forgiven our sins. Those who believe and live according to his will, reject sin, keep from sinning, so as not to separate ourselves from Christ as did Adam, and be condemned to spiritual death, also known as the Second Death.

Heaven or Hell becomes the consequence of our choice to enter into the same eternal relationship Adam enjoyed in the Garden but lost due to his sin and the condemnation or consequence of that sin, death. This is why all Christians have always believed in the resurrection of the dead. Christ raised our mortal natures to life through His Incarnation by becoming precisely like us in every respect.

The verses in the latter part of Romans 5 read like "if-then" type statements.... It A is true, then B is also true. So with that in mind look at Rom 5:19 for example:


Rom 5:19 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."


So if by Adam's disobedience MANY were made sinners is true, then it is also true that by the obedience of Christ MANY shall be made righteous.


In this verse, both the the "MANY"s refer to the same people. So if we look at this verse from the view of those that believe in original sin we have:


If it's true many are made sinners by inheriting Adam's sin, then it is also true that same many shall be made righteous by Christ. That would be univesalism. Those that believe in OS are essentially making the verse say everybody has been made sinners by inheriting Adam's sin and everybody will be made righteous by Christ also.

Again, if the first part of this verse is true that everyone is made a sinner by inheriting Adam's sin then the second part of the verse is true too in that everyone will be made righteous by Christ.


"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners," it is being assumed everyone was uncondtionally made sinners by inheriting Adam's sin. If that is true then it is also true everyone will unconditonally be made righteous by Christ, "many be made righteous". Again, if the first part of the verse is true, then second part must be true also.


Of course this is NOT what Paul is saying. When Paul said "by one man's disobedience many were made sinners" it is being ASSUMED by some that they were made sinners by inheriting Adam's sin but nowhere does Paul ever say such. In verse 12 Paul said "..."death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned". Paul did NOT say for all have inherited Adam's sin. People are made sinners for they choose to sin and are not made that way unconditionally agaisnt their will. Again IF all were unconditonally made sinners THEN that same all will be unconditionally made righteous.

So people are made sinners for they choose to sin Rom 5:12 and made righteous when they choose to do God's righteousness by having faith Rom 5:1-2. No one is unconditionally made a sinner or unconditionally made righteous.


So if those that believe in OS want the first part of the verse to have all be made sinners by Adam then how do they deal with second part of the verse with that same all being made righteous by Christ?
 
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Gen 29:31 "And when the LORD saw that Leah [was] hated, he opened her womb: but Rachel [was] barren. "

Was Leah rally hated in the emotional sense of being despised? No, for verse 30 says "and he loved also Rachel more than Leah" so hate as used in the bible can mean love less.

By God, no. Perhaps by Jacob but a man's love is entirely a different matter.

God is stated outright by Paul to hate Esau. I would even agree that it is a representation matter.

The question in any of those types of encounters is 'what is it exactly' the matters are representative of?

Obadiah 1:18
And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau; for the LORD hath spoken it.

Fact is we all have 'stubble' from the moment of conception. It's our flesh man, our old blinded man, our FIRST man of birth.

And yes, we were 'all' who prior to belief, in that factual condition of and in the flesh, as previously noted, planted in weakness, corruption, dishonor and a natural body which ALL are on the path of destruction back into a DUSTY GRAVE.
Lk 14:26 "If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

Do you hate your mother, father, brothers, sisters as Jesus said to hate them here in this verse?

Of course I do! I even hate myself in that regards. There is no blessing of God on dishonor, corruption, weakness and the natural man or his mind. They are all doomed to eventual failure in all of us.

But to come into understandings of these matters are A BLESSING when we quit lying to ourselves about the matters.

Again Paul's quote is taken from Malachi 1 where God's 'hate' was directed towards Edom and not the individual Esau. Esau had been dead many cienturies by the time Malachi 1 was written. Jacob's name was sometimes used in referring to Israel as Esau's name is somethimes used in referring to Edom, Gen 36:1, 19

There are no blessings on children of the flesh, period.

Does that mean or equate that God has abandoned us or any in such plantings? Entirely NOT.

Paul goes on to delineate in Romans 9 that in the LUMP of man there are in fact TWO VESSELS.

If believers do not believe this to be a 'personal matter' they merely need to turn to 2nd Tim. 2:20-21 to find that 'we' ourselves turn away from, divide from, purge ourselves from being the 'same as' the vessel of dishonor, our blinded flesh man.

Those are the manners of the TWO NATIONS that were in Rebecca's womb and the TWO VESSELS addressed by Paul, which same understandings he laid even upon himself.

s
 
Once Adam transgressed, he opened the door of sin to the world, he was no longer protected from it in the Garden, therefore we are not born with sin, we are a creation of God even today, and he does not and will not create us a sinner, but it is the first thing we come in contact with once be are born, we are not under the protection of God in the Garden because of Adams Sin. he did not let sin into the garden, he let Adam out, he had a choice to obey stay protected, or disobey and open the door.
:thumbsup
 
It's interesting that in Psalm 51.5, David says: 'In sin did my mother conceive me'.

Paul says, 'in Adam, all die', indicating a very similar idea (1 Corinthians 15.22).
 
It's interesting that in Psalm 51.5, David says: 'In sin did my mother conceive me'.

Paul says, 'in Adam, all die', indicating a very similar idea (1 Corinthians 15.22).

What is interesting is that so many apply Psalm 51.5 to born "with sin" when in fact it means his mother was sinning when he was conceived.

To apply Psalm 51.5 the way you say, makes Ezekiel 18:19-20 a contradiction.


Ezekiel 18:19-20 (KJV)

19. Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
20. The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.


How can David be born with sin, and Ezekiel say the son cannot bear the iniquity of the father and the father cannot bear the iniquity of the son which says sin is not transmitted via inheritance???

we have to toss this verse out to make that work...



Also, 1 Corinthians 15:22 says exactly what it says, because of Adams sin all men die, what does that have to do with inheritance?


If you read Psalms 51:5 as Davis mother was sinning when he was conceived, it fits Ezekiel 18:19-20, and 1 Corinthians 15:22 with no contradiction.

 
Originally posted by rrowell,

What is interesting is that so many apply Psalm 51.5 to born "with sin" when in fact it means his mother was sinning when he was conceived.

To apply Psalm 51.5 the way you say, makes Ezekiel 18:19-20 a contradiction.


Ezekiel 18:19-20 (KJV)

19. Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
20. The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.


How can David be born with sin, and Ezekiel say the son cannot bear the iniquity of the father and the father cannot bear the iniquity of the son which says sin is not transmitted via inheritance???

we have to toss this verse out to make that work...


Also, 1 Corinthians 15:22 says exactly what it says, because of Adams sin all men die, what does that have to do with inheritance?


If you read Psalms 51:5 as Davis mother was sinning when he was conceived, it fits Ezekiel 18:19-20, and 1 Corinthians 15:22 with no contradiction.


That is not Scripturally correct rrowell.

You're confusing "willful sin" (trespass) or "iniquity" with the corruptible, sinful nature when you quote Ezekiel 18:20. Iniquity corresponds with willful sin within the heart.

  • The Hebrew or the word 'iniquity' is: Avon - which means perversity, moral depravity of actions. Avon is rooted in the Hebrew verb avah which means to twist and distort, to act perversely and commit iniquity. The state of being stubbornly unyielding, deliberate unruliness.

Notice how it is used elsewhere:

Leviticus 22:16 "Or suffer them to bear the iniquity of trespass…"

Psalms 64:6 "They search out iniquities… the inward thought of every one of them…"

Isaiah 57:17 "For the iniquity of his covetousness was I wroth, and smote him…"

Psalms 28:3 "Draw me not away with the wicked, and with the workers of iniquity, which speak peace to their neighbors, but mischief is in their hearts."

Hosea 4:8 "They eat up the sin of my people, and they set their heart on their iniquity."

Acts 8:22, 23 "The thought of thine heart… the bond of iniquity."

Psalms 41:6 "His heart gathers iniquity to itself…"

Psalms 141:4 "Incline not my heart to any evil thing, to practice wicked works with men that work iniquity."

Psalms 64:6 "They search out iniquities; they accomplish a diligent search: both the inward thought of every one of them, and the heart, is deep."

Leviticus 26:41 "If then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity."

Isaiah 32:6 "For the vile person will speak villainy and his heart will work iniquity… "

Ezekiel 14:4 "Every man of the house of Israel that sets his idols in his heart, and puts the stumbling block of his iniquity before his face…"

2 Samuel 24:10 "And David's heart smote him… I have sinned greatly… take away the iniquity of thy servant…"




This is why there was a separate "sin offering" and a "trespass offering." The "sin offering" is offered for what we are by nature. The "trespass offering" is offered for what we DO while we are in this corruptible sinful flesh nature.





Look at Jeremiah 18:4 to read "the sum of thy word" on the matter:


  • Jeremiah 18:4 "And the vessel that he made of clay was MARRED in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it."

All the writers of God's word knew that "the vessel of clay...was marred in the hand of the Potter."


Paul agrees with Jeremiah:

  • Romans 8:20 "For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope."

That is why the "supposed fall of man" is nowhere to be found in Scripture. Adam sinned because he was "MARRED in the hand of the Potter" and because Adam, the creature, "was made subject to vanity...by reason of Him..."


1 John 2:16 tells us,

  • 1 John 2:16 "For ALL that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world."


Eve, and Adam with her, committed all these sins BEFORE she ever touched the tree.

  • Genesis 3:6 "And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food [The lust of the flesh], and that it was pleasant to the eyes [lust of the eyes], and a tree to be desired to make one wise [The pride of life], she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."


Before Eve ever touched the tree her "made-subject-to-vanity" (Romans 8:20) nature was already working in her to show her the fact that her Creator had formed her naked and of the corruptible dust.


Eve committed "all [sin] that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life" before she ever touched the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and since she was a "vessel of clay... MARRED in the Potter's hand" and since she was "made...of the dust of the earth" and since she was "shapen in iniquity" and since she was "made subject to vanity, not [because of any supposed self] willingly, BUT BY REASON OF HIM who subjected the same in hope."

Since all these scriptures agree that man was "made to be sin," it should therefore become obvious that man had nowhere to 'fall.' He never was in the kingdom of heaven. He never had eaten of the tree of life, and corruptible "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" to begin with.



It was incorruptible flesh that is FIRST, the SPIRIT comes AFTERWARD, not the other way around, as Paul tells us:


  • 1 Corinthians 15:44 "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
    [*]1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
    [*]1 Corinthians 15:46 Howbeit that WAS NOT FIRST which is spiritual ["conformed to the image of His Son", Romans 8:29] , but that which is natural; and AFTERWARD that which is spiritual.
    [*]1 Corinthians 15:47 The FIRST MAN IS OF THE EARTH, earthy: the SECOND MAN is the Lord from heaven.
    [*]1 Corinthians 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
    [*]1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
    [*]1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood ["the first man Adam"] cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."



"The first man Adam" was created out of the dusty clay of this earth, as the "flesh and blood... old man". "Flesh and Blood" cannot inherit the kingdom of God".


The so-called "fall of man" is dispelled by Paul in these two verses:

  • 1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
    [*]1 Corinthians 15:46 Howbeit that WAS NOT FIRST which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and AFTERWARD that which is spiritual.


The fact of scripture is that "the vessel of clay [Adam as he was originally made] was MARRED in the Potter's hand."

  • Jeremiah 18:4 "And the vessel that he made of clay was MARRED in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it."


It is by divine design that we find ourselves in this weak corruptible, dying, condition. Adam's sin was not merely the result of his disobedience. His disobedience was the result of the fact that he was "marred in the hand of the Potter," and he "was shapen ['in the hand of the Potter'] in iniquity, AND IN SIN..."


  • Psalms 51:5 "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and IN SIN did my mother conceive me." ("And IN SIN")



"The sum of God's word" reveals that Adam was created in an incurable condition which demands that "he fall back into the ground and die."

John 12:24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.



Life comes "through death."

Hebrews 2:14 "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil."
 
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That is not Scripturally correct rrowell.

Besides 90 percent of that post being heresy, it is too long and not worth replying to, if you wish, pick something out of that mess then we can debate it.
 
for_his_glory,

Christ was not like us in every aspect as He was not mortal as we are, but a Spirit which is God himself that took on the form of flesh as even though he was beaten and bruised for our iniquity he never uttered a sinful word against those who had him beaten or for those who beat him. Jesus was as mortal flesh on the cross, as mortal flesh laid in a borrowed tomb raised as in mortal flesh form as he was seen by many and even showed Thomas the nail prints in his hands and feet, was seen taken up to heaven as in mortal form, but once in heaven is Spirit form and will return in that of a mortal form for all man to see him return.
Christ was not in a form of a man. If He was He could not save man, He would be worthless. Christ became like us to share in our human nature. It is that mortal nature that died, and was raised to immortality. This is why all men will also be raised in the last day.

I'm not sure if you meant that everyone are now made righteous because of Jesus sacrifice for all mankind or just those who have repented and through faith have accepted Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. Could you clear that up for me please?
Christ redeemed the world, Christ reconciled the world, II Cor 5:18-19, Col 1:20, John 4:42, I John 4:14.

A person who believes is made righteous by faith. Or better understood as justification by faith. The words, reconcile, justify, righteous all have the very same meaning, that is, to put two things in their proper relationship.
We are not given physical life through Christ as you have stated, but given a new Spiritual life, John 3:3,
John 3:3 you are correct. But if we do not have a physical eternal existance, any spiritual life is worthless also. Christ does not give us spiritual life, but we obtain it through faith and baptism which is what follows in John 3:5.

that connects us back to Gods love through Christ Jesus as this mortal body will return to the dust of the ground from whence it was formed as once in the ground the flesh will rot away from the bone and the bone to dust and it is our spirit ,1Corinthians 15:14, that will be raised when Christ returns as we will all stand in judgement whether Gods judgement and condemned to hell fire or Christ judgement as a good and faithful servant.
Christ did not give us immortality in this life. Immortality is given to all men at the resurrection. But the resurrection is only possible because Christ arose from grave with our human nature transfigured and will also receive the same I Cor 15:53.
We die once, the consequence of Adam's condemnation, so that sin can be abolished. We die so that the body of sin dies, and then our bodies are raised immortal and incorruptible.
 
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