Are we born with a sin nature?

[Cassian]

Ernest T. Bass,

If it's true many are made sinners by inheriting Adam's sin, then it is also true that same many shall be made righteous by Christ. That would be univesalism. Those that believe in OS are essentially making the verse say everybody has been made sinners by inheriting Adam's sin and everybody will be made righteous by Christ also.

that would of necessity be the logical progression if one held to Original Sin.

So people are made sinners for they choose to sin Rom 5:12 and made righteous when they choose to do God's righteousness by having faith Rom 5:1-2. No one is unconditionally made a sinner or unconditionally made righteous.

Rom 5:12 is not about people sinning because they choose to do so.

The verse is clearly stating that because of one sin entered the world and death through that sin, thus death spread to all men because of which all men sinned. In other words we sin because we are dead. We sin easily through the weakness of the flesh and its corruptibility. The righteosness of Christ is retoring life to mankind. The follow up here is Rom 5:18.

So if those that believe in OS want the first part of the verse to have all be made sinners by Adam then how do they deal with second part of the verse with that same all being made righteous by Christ?

they need to distort scripture. Most only deal with man's sin, and Christ's death was only for the sacrifice for sin. That He arose again has no salvfic significance.
Thus when one comes to faith and is justified most hold also to the extension of OS to the satisfaction theory of the atonement, that justification means man is declared "not guilty". It does nothing to change man, just covers his sin.

 

[Dustoftheearth]

People choose to sin.

Mat 15:19 "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.

Jas 1:14 But each one is tempted by his lusts, being drawn away and seduced by them.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin. And sin, when it is fully formed, brings forth death.

With respect, you have not answered the question;

Scripture tells us that sin begins in the heart.
So, if the ability to sin is not inherent, then what causes the sinless heart to become sinful?

If sin is conceived in the heart, how can that be possible if the heart is not sinful/corrupt?

If a heart 'chooses' to sin, then that heart must first be corrupt.

 

[Dustoftheearth]

The part I have trouble with is your first underlined statement. Conceived and born into a sinful world....so when you were conceived, were you conceived through sin or by a mother and father through love that wanted a child? Is that sinful?

Yes, we are born into a sinful world, but we do not inherit our mother and father's sins. You have children...were they conceived through sin or by love?

When they were babies and you first looked at them did you see the they had a sinful nature or did you look at them as innocent babies that you loved unconditionally. Did you look at your babies and think, oh my...they have a sinful nature?

And what do you say about children that are conceived through rape or forced marriages, or the unwanted pregnancy, etc..etc..?

Are you suggesting that a planned and loved child, have not a sinful nature, but those above would/could have, because they were not conceived out of love?

 

[Osgiliath]

Besides 90 percent of that post being heresy, it is too long and not worth replying to, if you wish, pick something out of that mess then we can debate it.

Well, if you're going to make such an accusation, Scripturally show me (and everyone) the part of my post that is 90% heresy, and the 10% that is not. 90% of my post is straight Scripture passages, so explain each passage, and show me exactly what is heresy. The fact is, you can't, so you made the excuse that it's too long. Come on rrowell, pick away at every jot and tittle of my post and show me what is heresy. You're like the Pharisees who accused Jesus of casting out demons in the name of Beelzebub. You're guilty of the same thing here, and are blaspheming the Holy Spirit, as the Pharisees did. So please, back up your lying accusation, and go through my post piece by piece, and prove Scripturally what is heresy. If your ego and pride will not allow you to use honesty and integrity to address the post, I'd seriously refrain from such accusations in the future, for the sake of your own credibility, and for the sake of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. I'll be waiting for your Biblical exegesis of my post. :nod



Here, I'll make it easier for you to get started, and put it right here:

Originally Posted By Osgiliath,

You're confusing "willful sin" (trespass) or "iniquity" with the corruptible, sinful nature when you quote Ezekiel 18:20. Iniquity corresponds with willful sin within the heart.

• The Hebrew or the word 'iniquity' is: Avon - which means perversity, moral depravity of actions. Avon is rooted in the Hebrew verb avah which means to twist and distort, to act perversely and commit iniquity. The state of being stubbornly unyielding, deliberate unruliness.

Notice how it is used elsewhere:

Leviticus 22:16 "Or suffer them to bear the iniquity of trespass…"

Psalms 64:6 "They search out iniquities… the inward thought of every one of them…"

Isaiah 57:17 "For the iniquity of his covetousness was I wroth, and smote him…"

Psalms 28:3 "Draw me not away with the wicked, and with the workers of iniquity, which speak peace to their neighbors, but mischief is in their hearts."

Hosea 4:8 "They eat up the sin of my people, and they set their heart on their iniquity."

Acts 8:22, 23 "The thought of thine heart… the bond of iniquity."

Psalms 41:6 "His heart gathers iniquity to itself…"

Psalms 141:4 "Incline not my heart to any evil thing, to practice wicked works with men that work iniquity."

Psalms 64:6 "They search out iniquities; they accomplish a diligent search: both the inward thought of every one of them, and the heart, is deep."

Leviticus 26:41 "If then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity."

Isaiah 32:6 "For the vile person will speak villainy and his heart will work iniquity… "

Ezekiel 14:4 "Every man of the house of Israel that sets his idols in his heart, and puts the stumbling block of his iniquity before his face…"

2 Samuel 24:10 "And David's heart smote him… I have sinned greatly… take away the iniquity of thy servant…"



This is why there was a separate "sin offering" and a "trespass offering." The "sin offering" is offered for what we are by nature. The "trespass offering" is offered for what we DO while we are in this corruptible sinful flesh nature.





Look at Jeremiah 18:4 to read "the sum of thy word" on the matter:

• Jeremiah 18:4 "And the vessel that he made of clay was MARRED in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it."

All the writers of God's word knew that "the vessel of clay...was marred in the hand of the Potter."


Paul agrees with Jeremiah:

• Romans 8:20 "For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope."

That is why the "supposed fall of man" is nowhere to be found in Scripture. Adam sinned because he was "MARRED in the hand of the Potter" and because Adam, the creature, "was made subject to vanity...by reason of Him..."


1 John 2:16 tells us,

• 1 John 2:16 "For ALL that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world."

Eve, and Adam with her, committed all these sins BEFORE she ever touched the tree.

• Genesis 3:6 "And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food [The lust of the flesh], and that it was pleasant to the eyes [lust of the eyes], and a tree to be desired to make one wise [The pride of life], she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."

Before Eve ever touched the tree her "made-subject-to-vanity" (Romans 8:20) nature was already working in her to show her the fact that her Creator had formed her naked and of the corruptible dust.


Eve committed "all [sin] that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life" before she ever touched the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and since she was a "vessel of clay... MARRED in the Potter's hand" and since she was "made...of the dust of the earth" and since she was "shapen in iniquity" and since she was "made subject to vanity, not [because of any supposed self] willingly, BUT BY REASON OF HIM who subjected the same in hope."

Since all these scriptures agree that man was "made to be sin," it should therefore become obvious that man had nowhere to 'fall.' He never was in the kingdom of heaven. He never had eaten of the tree of life, and corruptible "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" to begin with.



It was incorruptible flesh that is FIRST, the SPIRIT comes AFTERWARD, not the other way around, as Paul tells us:

• 1 Corinthians 15:44 "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
  [*]1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
  [*]1 Corinthians 15:46 Howbeit that WAS NOT FIRST which is spiritual ["conformed to the image of His Son", Romans 8:29] , but that which is natural; and AFTERWARD that which is spiritual.
  [*]1 Corinthians 15:47 The FIRST MAN IS OF THE EARTH, earthy: the SECOND MAN is the Lord from heaven.
  [*]1 Corinthians 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
  [*]1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
  [*]1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood ["the first man Adam"] cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

"The first man Adam" was created out of the dusty clay of this earth, as the "flesh and blood... old man". "Flesh and Blood" cannot inherit the kingdom of God".


The so-called "fall of man" is dispelled by Paul in these two verses:

• 1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
  [*]1 Corinthians 15:46 Howbeit that WAS NOT FIRST which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and AFTERWARD that which is spiritual.

The fact of scripture is that "the vessel of clay [Adam as he was originally made] was MARRED in the Potter's hand."

• Jeremiah 18:4 "And the vessel that he made of clay was MARRED in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it."

It is by divine design that we find ourselves in this weak corruptible, dying, condition. Adam's sin was not merely the result of his disobedience. His disobedience was the result of the fact that he was "marred in the hand of the Potter," and he "was shapen ['in the hand of the Potter'] in iniquity, AND IN SIN..."

• Psalms 51:5 "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and IN SIN did my mother conceive me." ("And IN SIN")

"The sum of God's word" reveals that Adam was created in an incurable condition which demands that "he fall back into the ground and die."

John 12:24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.



Life comes "through death."

Hebrews 2:14 "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil."

 

[Dustoftheearth]

Once Adam transgressed, he opened the door of sin to the world, he was no longer protected from it in the Garden, therefore we are not born with sin, we are a creation of God even today, and he does not and will not create us a sinner, but it is the first thing we come in contact with once be are born, we are not under the protection of God in the Garden because of Adams Sin. he did not let sin into the garden, he let Adam out, he had a choice to obey stay protected, or disobey and open the door.

[FONT=&quot]So with that view, do all children who die in the womb or before an age of accountability, do they not need Christ's gift of redemption? [/FONT]

 

[BornAgain]

[FONT=&quot]So with that view, do all children who die in the womb or before an age of accountability, do they not need Christ's gift of redemption? [/FONT]

Should an innocent baby or child be punished before they even understand?

 

[Dustoftheearth]

Mat 11:9 But what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yea, I say to you, and one more excellent than a prophet.
Mat 11:10 For this is the one of whom it is written, "Behold, I send My messenger before Your face, who shall prepare Your way before You."
Mat 11:11 Truly I say to you, Among those who have been born of women there has not risen a greater one than John the Baptist. But the least in the kingdom of Heaven is greater than he.

Did Jesus exaggerate any, when He said that "Among those who have been born of women there has not risen a greater one than John the Baptist"?

That would mean greater than David, Moses, Abraham, Elijah, Noah, Enoch, among many others and even Abel.

If the least in the Kingdom is greater than John the Baptist, then the least in the Kingdom shall be also greater than all of the above.

Did John the Baptist need the redemptive works of Jesus Christ?

We know that Cain committed sin, but did Abel also commit any sin?

Why did Cain and Abel sin, if they had not the corrupted nature to do so?
Was society to blame for them learning how to sin?
Did Adam and Eve teach them to sin?

 

[Dustoftheearth]

Should an innocent baby or child be punished before they even understand?

Do they need Christ's gift of redemption or not?

Jesus said, no one comes to the Father except by Me.

Does that [FONT=&quot]include or[/FONT] exclude those said children?

 

[BornAgain]

Do they need Christ's gift of redemption or not?

Jesus said, no one comes to the Father except by Me.

Does that [FONT=&quot]include or[/FONT] exclude those said children?

Read posts 59. 62, 86 and 90. The scripture is all there.

 

[wayseer]

Jesus said, no one comes to the Father except by Me.

What does BY mean to you?

 

[Dustoftheearth]

Read posts 59. 62, 86 and 90. The scripture is all there.

Ok, I will just accept that you cannot or do not want to give a straight and honest answer.

 

[Dustoftheearth]

What does BY mean to you?

'Through'

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

What does 'no one' mean to you?

 

[wayseer]

'Through'

OK - but I'm not into word games.

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

What does 'no one' mean to you?

'Everyone" - how am I doing?

So now that little exchange is out of the way perhaps you might address the theological issues involved instead of quoting scripture. You made the rather bold statement I am asking for your theological grounds for making that statement. In case you have forgotten, here it is -

Jesus said, no one comes to the Father except by Me.

Apparently this statement has something to do with sin. I am interested in your theology on this matter.

 

[Dustoftheearth]

OK - but I'm not into word games.

Ok, but why ask the question?

'Everyone" - how am I doing?

Good!

So now that little exchange is out of the way perhaps you might address the theological issues involved instead of quoting scripture. You made the rather bold statement I am asking for your theological grounds for making that statement. In case you have forgotten, here it is -

Apparently this statement has something to do with sin. I am interested in your theology on this matter.

Wrong. I asked 'BornAgain' a question about children. You simply butted into the conversation with your own agenda.

 

[BornAgain]

Ok, but why ask the question?

Good!

Wrong. I asked 'BornAgain' a question about children. You simply butted into the conversation with your own agenda.

I do not have an agenda. I have repeatedly quoted scripture regarding the topic. Dustoftheearth is a good name for you.

 

[wayseer]

. I asked 'BornAgain' a question about children. You simply butted into the conversation with your own agenda.

Agreed. But the reason I 'butted' into your conversation is that you appear to be heading in a direction which you have not fully thought through.

And the connection between children and the idea of a sinful humanity is significant. If you cannot elaborate on that issue you will end up trying to explain how children, who have no consciousness, could expect to be saved.

 

[reba]

Post are getting a bit snarky... How about toning it down...reba

 

[for_his_glory]

Post are getting a bit snarky... How about toning it down...reba

Hi reba and thank you. I'd like to ask that this thread be closed now as even in my wildest dreams I never thought my OP would go this far into so many discussions, but I fear many are starting to grieve the Holy Spirit and I do not want my topic be the cause of this. I feel there is enough info from everyone that they can make up their own minds to what they want to believe and I want to thank everyone for their input and God bless all of you.

 

[Dustoftheearth]

Agreed. But the reason I 'butted' into your conversation is that you appear to be heading in a direction which you have not fully thought through.

That’s quite an assumption.

And the connection between children and the idea of a sinful humanity is significant. If you cannot elaborate on that issue you will end up trying to explain how children, who have no consciousness, could expect to be saved.

If the tree is corrupt, then the seed is corrupt.

You don't get good fruit from a bad tree.

It's not just about what we have done or not done (fruit of the flesh) but about what we are.

1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 Thus also it is written, "The first man Adam became a living soul;" the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1Co 15:46 However, that which is spiritual is not first, but that which is natural, then that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man was from earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 Like the man made of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And just as we have borne the image of the man made of dust, let us also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor can corruption inherit incorruption.

[FONT=&quot]Paul is speaking about the natural seed of man being sown. It is corrupt seed sown in dishonour and weakness.
[/FONT]
The good news is:
Rev 21:5 Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these words are faithful and true."

That includes those said children who are also made of dust.

 

[BornAgain]

Hi reba and thank you. I'd like to ask that this thread be closed now as even in my wildest dreams I never thought my OP would go this far into so many discussions, but I fear many are starting to grieve the Holy Spirit and I do not want my topic be the cause of this. I feel there is enough info from everyone that they can make up their own minds to what they want to believe and I want to thank everyone for their input and God bless all of you.