Are we born with a sin nature?

[reba]

For His Glory... I would rather those that need to , just cool off a bit. Closing threads is not something i like to do...
Most the folks here are being polite....once in a while we all need a nudge...

 

[wayseer]

That’s quite an assumption.

Agreed - but as indicated below, my assumption appears correct.

If the tree is corrupt, then the seed is corrupt.

You don't get good fruit from a bad tree.

It's not just about what we have done or not done (fruit of the flesh) but about what we are.

1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 Thus also it is written, "The first man Adam became a living soul;" the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1Co 15:46 However, that which is spiritual is not first, but that which is natural, then that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man was from earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 Like the man made of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And just as we have borne the image of the man made of dust, let us also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor can corruption inherit incorruption.

[FONT=&quot]Paul is speaking about the natural seed of man being sown. It is corrupt seed sown in dishonour and weakness.
[/FONT]
The good news is:
Rev 21:5 Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these words are faithful and true."

That includes those said children who are also made of dust.

Children without having heard anything about God will - what? - remain dust.

What of mercy? What of grace?

Your theology is confusing.

 

[Dustoftheearth]

Agreed - but as indicated below, my assumption appears correct.

But your still wrong.

Children without having heard anything about God will - what? - remain dust.

Do you disagree with what Paul wrote?

I have not said or suggested that they will remain dust. Hence the ‘behold I make all things new’

The point is to show that they are sown in corruption, dishonor and weakness.

What of mercy? What of grace?

Are you asking if they will receive God’s grace and mercy?
Yes of course they will.
God is Love, and He cannot be unloving, unholy, unrighteous or unjust.

Your theology is confusing.

Are they sown in corruption, dishonor and weakness, or not?

 

[reba]

This is one of those endless circular arguments...
My view .... They scriptures say what they say ... they teach, not using exact words, but they teach man is born sinful .... There are verses that hint to an age of accountability... but nothing is more clear to me then the Words of our Lord....
Mat_19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

 

[reba]

2.5: Respect each others' opinions. Address issues, not persons or personalities. Give other members the respect you would want them to give yourself.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

By God, no. Perhaps by Jacob but a man's love is entirely a different matter.

God is stated outright by Paul to hate Esau. I would even agree that it is a representation matter.

The question in any of those types of encounters is 'what is it exactly' the matters are representative of?

Obadiah 1:18
And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau; for the LORD hath spoken it.

Fact is we all have 'stubble' from the moment of conception. It's our flesh man, our old blinded man, our FIRST man of birth.

And yes, we were 'all' who prior to belief, in that factual condition of and in the flesh, as previously noted, planted in weakness, corruption, dishonor and a natural body which ALL are on the path of destruction back into a DUSTY GRAVE.


Of course I do! I even hate myself in that regards. There is no blessing of God on dishonor, corruption, weakness and the natural man or his mind. They are all doomed to eventual failure in all of us.

But to come into understandings of these matters are A BLESSING when we quit lying to ourselves about the matters.



There are no blessings on children of the flesh, period.

Does that mean or equate that God has abandoned us or any in such plantings? Entirely NOT.

Paul goes on to delineate in Romans 9 that in the LUMP of man there are in fact TWO VESSELS.

If believers do not believe this to be a 'personal matter' they merely need to turn to 2nd Tim. 2:20-21 to find that 'we' ourselves turn away from, divide from, purge ourselves from being the 'same as' the vessel of dishonor, our blinded flesh man.

Those are the manners of the TWO NATIONS that were in Rebecca's womb and the TWO VESSELS addressed by Paul, which same understandings he laid even upon himself.

s

You are overlooking the point that in the bible hate can and does mean love less, Gen 29:30,31

Even in Lk 14:26 "If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

It is said in Mt 10:37 "He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."

So even the 'hate' in Lk 14:26 when compared to Matt 10:27 means to love less not the emotional kind of hate meaning to despise. Christians are not to hate/despise anyone not even thier enemies.


You also overlook that Paul's quote is taken from Malachi 1 where God's 'hate' was directed towards Edom and not the individual Esau. Esau had been dead many centuries by the time Malachi 1 was written.

I know of no verse where God is said to have hated/despise the individual Esau. From Gen 36:6,7 the country could not contain all the possessions of both Jacob and Esau. So God gave Esau/Edom Mt Seir to dwell in and drove out the inhabitants of Mt. Seir for Esau, Deut 2:1-22 This was a blessing God gave to to Esau not hate God had for Esau. Again, nothing ever said here about God hating/despising Esau.

 

[smaller]

You are overlooking the point that in the bible hate can and does mean love less, Gen 29:30,31

Even in Lk 14:26 "If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

I have no issues with Jesus' hatred. It does not mean 'love less.'

God in Christ planted 'all' of us, down to the last one of us in the factual conditions of weakness, corruption, dishonor and a natural body, ALL doomed to eventually perish in that planting.

Does that mean that God loves dishonor? Uh, no. Does God love corruption? Uh, no.

All of those matters are matters of our current planting conditions. And God Himself has placed us 'all' in those factual conditions. And tolerates the ground therein in HOPE.

It is said in Mt 10:27 "He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."

So even the 'hate' in Lk 14:26 when compared to Matt 10:27 means to love less not the emotional kind of hate meaning to despise. Christians are not to hate/despise anyone not even thier enemies.

I totally agree.

All things do in fact serve His Purposes.

You also overlook that Paul's quote is taken from Malachi 1 where God's 'hate' was directed towards Edom and not the individual Esau. Esau had been dead many centuries by the time Malachi 1 was written.

There are many matters of Divine Hatred.

Psalm 11:5
The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Prov. 6:
16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

I know of no verse where God is said to have hated/despise the individual Esau. From Gen 36:6,7 the country could not contain all the possessions of both Jacob and Esau. So God gave Esau/Edom Mt Seir to dwell in and drove out the inhabitants of Mt. Seir for Esau, Deut 2:1-22 This was a blessing God gave to to Esau not hate God had for Esau. Again, nothing ever said here about God hating/despising Esau.

It has been pointed to repeatedly by many in this thread that the factual conditions of the planting of every person is in weakness, dishonor, corruption and a natural body.

Those are the 'temporary' conditions that God has placed ALL into with Divine Intentions and Divine Purposes.

None of us necessarily 'love' these conditions. Nevertheless they are quite factual, even to unbelievers.

There is no point in 'lying' about these facts.

It was a Divine Showing that Jacob, the SECOND MAN came out of the womb holding Esau's heel.

Jacob was the measure of God upon the SECOND MAN.

Jacob himself came before his father, the father of promise, draped in the goatskin of his brother Esau, even as a LIAR and a DECEIVER and was what?

BLESSED.

God really does love 'TRUTH' tellers. But we certainly see the path of that truthful speaking was in reality about the factual conditions of our present planting and had little to do with Esau and everything to do about 'us.'

s

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Ernest T. Bass,

that would of necessity be the logical progression if one held to Original Sin.

Rom 5:12 is not about people sinning because they choose to do so.

The verse is clearly stating that because of one sin entered the world and death through that sin, thus death spread to all men because of which all men sinned. In other words we sin because we are dead. We sin easily through the weakness of the flesh and its corruptibility. The righteosness of Christ is retoring life to mankind. The follow up here is Rom 5:18.

Rom 5:12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

I believe it is sometimes important to not what a verse does NOT say and Paul did NOT say death passed upon all for all have inherited Adam's sin.

"For that all have sinned" means people have actively chosen of their own will to sin and not have sin passively forced upon them just because they were simply physically born.


You posted "In other words we sin because we are dead" Man is not born dead but born innocent or neutral, Rom 9:11. Infants do not know wrong from right but when they intellectually mature and do learn wrong from right then they can choose to sin as Paul said of himself in Rom 7:8-9 Sin sprang up in Paul later in his life not when he was conceived/born. So one is born innocent and not dead and is not a sinner until he commits sin as John said sin is transgression of the law. The newly conceived are not capble of transgressing God's law. As I have said before, calling one a sinner before he even sins is like calling a wall painted before it has ever has any paint applied to it.
Just as one cannot be a sinner before he chooses to sin one cannot be righteous before he chooses to do God's righteousness. One must first choose to have faith then he can be reckoned righteous by God just as one must first choose to sin before he can be a lost, unrighteous sinner.

they need to distort scripture. Most only deal with man's sin, and Christ's death was only for the sacrifice for sin. That He arose again has no salvfic significance.
Thus when one comes to faith and is justified most hold also to the extension of OS to the satisfaction theory of the atonement, that justification means man is declared "not guilty". It does nothing to change man, just covers his sin.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I have no issues with Jesus' hatred. It does not mean 'love less.'

Comparing Lk 14:26 with Matt 10:37 Jesus did mean love less.

God in Christ planted 'all' of us, down to the last one of us in the factual conditions of weakness, corruption, dishonor and a natural body, ALL doomed to eventually perish in that planting.

Does that mean that God loves dishonor? Uh, no. Does God love corruption? Uh, no.

All of those matters are matters of our current planting conditions. And God Himself has placed us 'all' in those factual conditions. And tolerates the ground therein in HOPE.



I totally agree.

All things do in fact serve His Purposes.



There are many matters of Divine Hatred.

Psalm 11:5
The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Prov. 6:
16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

God does hate some things but nowhere does the bible say God hates people. 1 Jn 4:8 says God is love and a loving God does not hate people. Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world. Rom 5:6-8 God loved sinners, did not hate them.

http://www.apologeticspress.org/APContent.aspx?category=11&article=2035


(my emp)


Does God Hate Sinners?

by Kyle Butt, M.A.

Most religious people agree that God hates sin. Over and over, the Bible stresses the fact that God despises iniquity. God told the prophet Jeremiah to speak to the Israelites about their sin, saying: “Oh, do not do this abominable thing that I hate!” (44:4). The Proverbs writer listed seven sins the Lord hates (6:16-19). The prophet Zechariah declared that God hates a false oath and evil done to one’s neighbor (8:17). Jesus Himself said that He hated the deeds of the Nicolaitans (Revelation 2:6). The Bible emphasizes that the Lord hates sin.

Some have suggested that God takes His hatred one step further. They believe that God hates the sinner as well as the sin he or she commits. It has been suggested that God loves those who obey Him, and hates all who disobey. Those who teach this idea use various Bible verses to “prove” their case. For instance, Psalm 5:5 says that God hates “all workers of iniquity.” Proverbs 6:18-19 says that God hates “a false witness who speaks lies, and one who sows discord among brethren.” Is it true that God hates sinners and their sin?

Any person who has read the Bible understands that one of its greatest themes is love. The Bible says that God is love (1 John 4:8). It also explains that God showed His love to us while we were still sinners:

For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us (Romans 5:6-8).
​

An interesting aspect of this passage is that it stresses that lost sinners were not “righteous” or “good” when Christ demonstrated His love for them.

In the narrative of the rich young ruler, Jesus explained that the young man lacked something necessary to be pleasing to God. Yet even though the young man was lacking and lost, the Bible says that Jesus “loved him” (Mark 10:21). When Jesus mourned over lost Jerusalem, He cried:

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! (Matthew 23:37).
​

Jesus said His affection for the lost inhabitants of Jerusalem was like a mother hen’s affection for her chicks. Such a statement obviously denotes love for the sinners in Jerusalem.

In one of the most well-known “love” verses in the Bible, Jesus said: “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life” (John 3:16). God’s love for the lost world was shown before the lost believed in Jesus. John further explained this when he wrote: “In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins” (1 John 4:10). From these verses it is clear that God loves lost sinners, and proved that love by sending Jesus.

How, then, can one reconcile the verses that seem to suggest that God hates sinners, but loves them at the same time? One of the most plausible solutions is that the Bible writers are using a figure of speech called metonymy when they write that God hates sinners. Metonymy is defined as: “A figure by which one name or noun is used instead of another, to which it stands in a certain relation” (Bullinger, 1898, p. 538). Bullinger further explains that metonymy can be “of cause,” when the person acting can be put in place of the thing that is done (p. 539). For instance, in Luke 16:29, the text says: “They have Moses and the prophets, let them hear them.” In reality, they did not have “Moses” or the “prophets,” but they did have their writings. The name Moses is a metonymy that stood for his writings, since he was the cause of the writings. In modern times, that would be like saying, “I hate Shakespeare.” Would the person who said that mean that he hated Shakespeare’s personality? No. We understand he would be saying he does not like the writings of Shakespeare, with no comment on the playwright’s personality.

If we apply that same figure of speech to the passages about God “hating sinners,” we can see that the sinner is put in place of the sin. Thus, when God says He hates “a false witness who speaks lies” (Proverbs 6:19), if metonymy is being used, then God hates the lies, and the one who is doing the lying (the cause) is put in place of the lies (the effect). It is interesting to see how clear this feature can be in other contexts.

For instance, Proverbs 6:17 says that God hates “a lying tongue.” Does that mean that God hates a physical tongue, made of muscle and body tissue? No. It means God hates the sin that a tongue can perform. In the same context, we learn that God hates “feet that are swift in running to evil” (6:18). Again, does that mean that God hates physical feet? No. It simply means that God hates the sin that those feet can perform.

It is interesting that while few, if any, would suggest that God hates physical tongues or actual feet, they would insist that God hates actual sinners and not the sin done by them.

When studying the Bible, it is very important to keep in mind that the Bible writers often used figures of speech. When we look at the idea that God hates sin, but loves sinners, the figure of speech known as metonymy clears up the confusion. Just as God does not hate physical feet or tongues, He does not hate sinners. These nouns are put in the place of the things they cause—sin.

REFERENCE​

Bullinger, E.W. (1898), Figures of Speech Used in the Bible (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker), 1968 reprint.

It has been pointed to repeatedly by many in this thread that the factual conditions of the planting of every person is in weakness, dishonor, corruption and a natural body.

Those are the 'temporary' conditions that God has placed ALL into with Divine Intentions and Divine Purposes.

None of us necessarily 'love' these conditions. Nevertheless they are quite factual, even to unbelievers.

There is no point in 'lying' about these facts.

It was a Divine Showing that Jacob, the SECOND MAN came out of the womb holding Esau's heel.

Jacob was the measure of God upon the SECOND MAN.

Jacob himself came before his father, the father of promise, draped in the goatskin of his brother Esau, even as a LIAR and a DECEIVER and was what?

BLESSED.

God really does love 'TRUTH' tellers. But we certainly see the path of that truthful speaking was in reality about the factual conditions of our present planting and had little to do with Esau and everything to do about 'us.'

s

Not one single verse says God creates man a sinner or that God planted man in sin when God created man. Such an idea puts culpability upon God and any theology that makes God culpable for the lost should be rejected.

 

[smaller]

Comparing Lk 14:26 with Matt 10:27 Jesus did mean love less.

God does hate some things but nowhere does the bible say God hates people. 1 Jn 4:8 says God is love and a loving God does not hate people. Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world. Rom 5:6-8 Christ loved sinners, did not hate them.

When Jesus addressed Satan in Peter do you see it is possible that Jesus loved Peter and hated Satan?

Is it true that the sin of any of us is connected to the devil?

Not one single verse says God creates man a sinner or that God planted man in sin when God created man. Such an idea puts culpability upon God and any theology that makes God culpable for the lost should be rejected.

God 'created' the dust of man and made it 'subject to' the entrance of the deceiver.

That's the way it has been from day 1.

God tolerates that matter and has tolerated for a considerably long time. That time of toleration will end.

s

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Mat 15:19 "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.

Jas 1:14 But each one is tempted by his lusts, being drawn away and seduced by them.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin. And sin, when it is fully formed, brings forth death.

With respect, you have not answered the question;

If sin is conceived in the heart, how can that be possible if the heart is not sinful/corrupt?

If a heart 'chooses' to sin, then that heart must first be corrupt.

God has given everyone free will, the ability to choose. So when a child learns right from wrong, Isa 7:15-16 he has the ablity to choose to do either right or wrong. A person can choose to do well just as easlily as he can choose to not do well, Gen 4:7 Since people can choose to do well then must have first had a heart that was not corrupt, right? Nowhere does the bible say God created Adam with a corupt heart but created Adam with the ability to choose to do well or not do well just as his son Cain had that same ablity Gen 4:7. If God creates man corrupt then that puts blame and cupability on God for man being a sinner and man has no accountability in his being a sinner.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

When Jesus addressed Satan in Peter do you see it is possible that Jesus loved Peter and hated Satan?

Is it true that the sin of any of us is connected to the devil?



God 'created' the dust of man and made it 'subject to' the entrance of the deceiver.

That's the way it has been from day 1.

God tolerates that matter and has tolerated for a considerably long time. That time of toleration will end.

s

When God created man from dust, God blessed man with a free will. Men abuse that free will by choosing to do wrong. So God did not create man corrupt against man's will but created man with a free will.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

This is one of those endless circular arguments...
My view .... They scriptures say what they say ... they teach, not using exact words, but they teach man is born sinful .... There are verses that hint to an age of accountability... but nothing is more clear to me then the Words of our Lord....
Mat_19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

If man is born little devils, vile sinners then that would mean the kingdom of heaven is made up little devil, vile sinners.

What bible verse(s) says man is born a sinner?

 

[for_his_glory]

For His Glory... I would rather those that need to , just cool off a bit. Closing threads is not something i like to do...
Most the folks here are being polite....once in a while we all need a nudge...

OK, TY. I just did not want my thread to be the cause of anyone grieving the Holy Spirit as I know some debates can become heated at times. God bless.

 

[Osgiliath]

If man is born little devils, vile sinners then that would mean the kingdom of heaven is made up little devil, vile sinners.

What bible verse(s) says man is born a sinner?

Here Ernest:

• Jeremiah 18:4 "And the vessel that he made of clay was MARRED in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it."

Paul agrees with Jeremiah:

• Romans 8:20 "For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope."

Adam sinned because he was "MARRED in the hand of the Potter" and because Adam, the creature, "was made subject to vanity...by reason of Him..."


How else could Adam have sinned if he didn't have the propensity to sin in the first place? It would be impossible!


It was incorruptible flesh that was FIRST, the SPIRIT comes AFTERWARD, not the other way around, as Paul tells us:

• 1 Corinthians 15:44 "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
  [*]1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
  [*]1 Corinthians 15:46 Howbeit that WAS NOT FIRST which is spiritual ["conformed to the image of His Son", Romans 8:29] , but that which is natural; and AFTERWARD that which is spiritual.
  [*]1 Corinthians 15:47 The FIRST MAN IS OF THE EARTH, earthy: the SECOND MAN is the Lord from heaven.
  [*]1 Corinthians 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
  [*]1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
  [*]1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood ["the first man Adam"] cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

"The first man Adam" was created out of the dusty clay of this earth, as the "flesh and blood... old man". "Flesh and Blood" cannot inherit the kingdom of God".


The fact of scripture is that "the vessel of clay [Adam as he was originally made] was MARRED in the Potter's hand."

• Jeremiah 18:4 "And the vessel that he made of clay was MARRED in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it."

It is by divine design that we find ourselves in this weak corruptible, dying, condition. Adam's sin was not merely the result of his disobedience. His disobedience was the result of the fact that he was "marred in the hand of the Potter," and he "was shapen ['in the hand of the Potter'] in iniquity, AND IN SIN..."

• Psalms 51:5 "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and IN SIN did my mother conceive me."

"The sum of God's word" reveals that Adam was created in an incurable condition which demands that "he fall back into the ground and die."

John 12:24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.


Life comes "through death."

Hebrews 2:14 "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil."

 

[BornAgain]

OK, TY. I just did not want my thread to be the cause of anyone grieving the Holy Spirit as I know some debates can become heated at times. God bless.

Actually it was a great thread you started...look at all of the debating. That is how we learn to study and get into scripture and the Bible.

I learned a lot from this thread...thank you and God Bless You!

 

[Dustoftheearth]

God has given everyone free will, the ability to choose. So when a child learns right from wrong, Isa 7:15-16 he has the ablity to choose to do either right or wrong. A person can choose to do well just as easlily as he can choose to not do well, Gen 4:7 Since people can choose to do well then must have first had a heart that was not corrupt, right? Nowhere does the bible say God created Adam with a corupt heart but created Adam with the ability to choose to do well or not do well just as his son Cain had that same ablity Gen 4:7. If God creates man corrupt then that puts blame and cupability on God for man being a sinner and man has no accountability in his being a sinner.

"God has given everyone free will, the ability to choose"

We don’t have ‘free will’, we have limited will.

We may have the ability to make choices, but that ability is corrupted.

Perhaps we might be able to make the outside of the cup appear clean by our ability to choose, but what about the inside of the cup?

 

[Dustoftheearth]

If man is born little devils, vile sinners then that would mean the kingdom of heaven is made up little devil, vile sinners.

What bible verse(s) says man is born a sinner?

"Only God is good"

 

[smaller]

When God created man from dust, God blessed man with a free will. Men abuse that free will by choosing to do wrong. So God did not create man corrupt against man's will but created man with a free will.

No amount of 'choice' by man stops this intrusion into the weak, corrupt and dishonorable natural body.

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

This is the condition of every UNbeliever in the flesh prior to belief:

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Ephesians 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Free will can't see plain facts. Free will sees only the blinded man and then blames the blinded mans choice.

s

 

[Cassian]

Rom 5:12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

I believe it is sometimes important to not what a verse does NOT say and Paul did NOT say death passed upon all for all have inherited Adam's sin.

"For that all have sinned" means people have actively chosen of their own will to sin and not have sin passively forced upon them just because they were simply physically born.


You posted "In other words we sin because we are dead" Man is not born dead but born innocent or neutral, Rom 9:11. Infants do not know wrong from right but when they intellectually mature and do learn wrong from right then they can choose to sin as Paul said of himself in Rom 7:8-9 Sin sprang up in Paul later in his life not when he was conceived/born. So one is born innocent and not dead and is not a sinner until he commits sin as John said sin is transgression of the law. The newly conceived are not capble of transgressing God's law. As I have said before, calling one a sinner before he even sins is like calling a wall painted before it has ever has any paint applied to it.
Just as one cannot be a sinner before he chooses to sin one cannot be righteous before he chooses to do God's righteousness. One must first choose to have faith then he can be reckoned righteous by God just as one must first choose to sin before he can be a lost, unrighteous sinner.

I agree with you with the exception of the darkened notation. Dead here means mortal. We live in a state of death. That is the cause of our sinninig. The influences of the flesh cause us to sin easily. It does not mean dead spiritually here.