Are we born with a sin nature?

[Ernest T. Bass]

Here Ernest:

• Jeremiah 18:4 "And the vessel that he made of clay was MARRED in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it."

Paul agrees with Jeremiah:

• Romans 8:20 "For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope."

Adam sinned because he was "MARRED in the hand of the Potter" and because Adam, the creature, "was made subject to vanity...by reason of Him..."


How else could Adam have sinned if he didn't have the propensity to sin in the first place? It would be impossible!


It was incorruptible flesh that was FIRST, the SPIRIT comes AFTERWARD, not the other way around, as Paul tells us:

• 1 Corinthians 15:44 "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
  [*]1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
  [*]1 Corinthians 15:46 Howbeit that WAS NOT FIRST which is spiritual ["conformed to the image of His Son", Romans 8:29] , but that which is natural; and AFTERWARD that which is spiritual.
  [*]1 Corinthians 15:47 The FIRST MAN IS OF THE EARTH, earthy: the SECOND MAN is the Lord from heaven.
  [*]1 Corinthians 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
  [*]1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
  [*]1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood ["the first man Adam"] cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

"The first man Adam" was created out of the dusty clay of this earth, as the "flesh and blood... old man". "Flesh and Blood" cannot inherit the kingdom of God".


The fact of scripture is that "the vessel of clay [Adam as he was originally made] was MARRED in the Potter's hand."

• Jeremiah 18:4 "And the vessel that he made of clay was MARRED in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it."

It is by divine design that we find ourselves in this weak corruptible, dying, condition. Adam's sin was not merely the result of his disobedience. His disobedience was the result of the fact that he was "marred in the hand of the Potter," and he "was shapen ['in the hand of the Potter'] in iniquity, AND IN SIN..."

• Psalms 51:5 "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and IN SIN did my mother conceive me."

"The sum of God's word" reveals that Adam was created in an incurable condition which demands that "he fall back into the ground and die."

John 12:24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.


Life comes "through death."

Hebrews 2:14 "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil."

Where in the context does it say the potter himself made/forced the clay to mar? Adam of his own free will chose to disobey and thereby 'marred' himself. Jer 18:8,10 shows that it depends on the how the "clay' behaves as to what kind of vessel the potter makes, see also 2 Ti 2:21 "If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, [and] prepared unto every good work." Note the man has to purge himself. So 'clay' is not randomly or uncondtionally made into vessels. If man obeys God then he will be made into a vessel of honor and if a man disobey God he will be made a vessel of dishonor. God does not make men sinners against their will just so God can punish them.


Eccl 7:29 "Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions" So God did not make men corrupt sinners but man corrupted himself.

WHen the Psalmists said he was 'shapen in inquity' KJV that does not say God shaped him that way. He was either speaking of the sins of his parents or most likely is saying he was brought forth into a world or environment of sin. If God created men sinners then that makes God culpable for men's sins and man has no accountability for any sin he commits. The idea that David was born a sinner is being assumed into the verse. In Psa 51:1-4 David is acknowledging his OWN sins and repenting for the sins HE COMMITTED and not some sin another person committed.

Eze 18:4,20 "the soul that sinneth is shall die"

Eze 18:30 "Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn [yourselves] from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin."

People are culpable for their own sins and will be judged according to their own sins and not someone else's sins.

The Psalmists wrote "But thou [art] he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope [when I was] upon my mother's breasts. I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou [art] my God from my mother's belly." Psa 22:9-10

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

"God has given everyone free will, the ability to choose"

We don’t have ‘free will’, we have limited will.

We may have the ability to make choices, but that ability is corrupted.

Perhaps we might be able to make the outside of the cup appear clean by our ability to choose, but what about the inside of the cup?

Gen 4:7 "If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."


God shows Himself that Cain had the ability within himself to choose to do well. God even tells Cain to rule over sin, something not possible if Cain were born corrupt. Cain corrupted himself by choosing to not do well but his brother Abel chose to do well, Heb 11:4

1 Jn 3:12 "Not as Cain, [who] was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's (works) righteous. "

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

"Only God is good"

Only God is good in the perfect sense, God's title is "The Good". Other men in the bible are called good and called righteous but their goodness or righteousness was not perfect as God's, no man keeps God's commandments perfectly.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

No amount of 'choice' by man stops this intrusion into the weak, corrupt and dishonorable natural body.

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

This is the condition of every UNbeliever in the flesh prior to belief:

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Ephesians 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Free will can't see plain facts. Free will sees only the blinded man and then blames the blinded mans choice.

s

The conditon of the unborn and new born Rom 9:11 "(For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) "

After children are born into this world having done no good or evil, children do not understand right from wrong, Isa 7:15-16. This is why Jesus could say "Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven. " The kingdom of heaven is not made up of corrupt sinners therefore children are not corrupt sinners. Rom 7:8-9 sin sprang up in Paul later in his life and not when he was conceived.

 

[Davies]

The conditon of the unborn and new born Rom 9:11 "(For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) "

After children are born into this world having done no good or evil, children do not understand right from wrong, Isa 7:15-16. This is why Jesus could say "Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven. " The kingdom of heaven is not made up of corrupt sinners therefore children are not corrupt sinners. Rom 7:8-9 sin sprang up in Paul later in his life and not when he was conceived.

Good morning Ernest T. Bass,

I would agree with you that Heaven does not consist of corrupt sinners. Heaven consists of corrupt sinners who have been forgiven by the gloriously forgiving God.

- Davies

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I agree with you with the exception of the darkened notation. Dead here means mortal. We live in a state of death. That is the cause of our sinninig. The influences of the flesh cause us to sin easily. It does not mean dead spiritually here.

I guess I am not getting what you are saying.

First you said "In other words we sin because we are dead"

Then you say here "Dead here means mortal"

So you are saying we sin because we are mortally dead? I'm not sure what you mean here. Mortally dead people sinning? Man lives in a state where he can physically die at any time but I do not see how living in that state causes him to sin.

My point is that people are born innocent and pure and do not become spirutually dead until they are able to know right from wrong and then choose to sin/transgress the law of God, 1 Jn 3:4

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Good morning Ernest T. Bass,

I would agree with you that Heaven does not consist of corrupt sinners. Heaven consists of corrupt sinners who have been forgiven by the gloriously forgiving God.

- Davies

.....and if children were corrupt sinners then the kingdom of heaven would not be made up of such.

 

[Davies]

.....and if children were corrupt sinners then the kingdom of heaven would not be made up of such.

Ernest,

I believe the blood of Jesus is good enough for children as well.

- Davies

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Ernest,

I believe the blood of Jesus is good enough for children as well.

- Davies

What sin(s) have the newly conceived, newly born, children committed that they need forgiveness of?

 

[Davies]

Ernest,

Are you saying that children are not in Adam?

- Davies

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Ernest,

Are you saying that children are not in Adam?

- Davies

No, I am asking what law have the newly conceived, newly born transgressed that would make them sinners and need of forgiveness 1 Jn 3:4 ?

 

[Davies]

No, I am asking what law have the newly conceived, newly born transgressed that would make them sinners and need of forgiveness 1 Jn 3:4 ?

Ernest,

The newly conceived have done nothing good nor anything bad. Though we disagree with the sin nature being passed down, there still remains a problem. Though the newly conceived haven't done anything wrong, they haven't done anything right. They have no righteousness. I believe that because of their inability to discern, God imputes His righteousness to them, the same way He imputes His righteousness to us. Because we can discern right and wrong, we are required to put our faith in Jesus. We need not only our sins forgiven, we need to be righteous, and our righteousness doesn't get it done.

- Davies

 

[smaller]

The conditon of the unborn and new born Rom 9:11 "(For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) "

Let's get clear on one item. Even though 'all' people are born into the factual state of dishonor, corruption, weakness and a natural body this does by no means equate to God in Christ not saving children.

Jesus was abundantly clear in His command to, in effect, suffer the children to come unto Him and 'forbid them not.' The 'forbid them not' statement is as a reminder for our ears.

After children are born into this world having done no good or evil, children do not understand right from wrong, Isa 7:15-16. This is why Jesus could say "Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven. " The kingdom of heaven is not made up of corrupt sinners therefore children are not corrupt sinners. Rom 7:8-9 sin sprang up in Paul later in his life and not when he was conceived.

You seem to believe that somehow people's choices as adults makes them potentially sinless.

That is not the case with children or adults.

You continue to make no account to what the 'flesh' is subject to and that is the entrance of the tempter deceiver therein at ANY AGE.

Matters of sin are not merely questions of mankind or of flesh. There are factually 'other parties involved.'

Because these are unseen 'believers' tend to overlook that fact in 'all' their judgments about 'sin' or 'choices.'

The minds of children are just as blinded by the 'god of this world' as any other unbelieving mind, and that condition persists until 'belief.'

s

 

[for_his_glory]

I did a deeper study in Psalms 51:5 and Romans 5:12-21 and even though we are conceived and born into a world where sin that was brought about by one man, Adam, now makes all of us a sinner at some point in time and only when sin is revealed to us do we become a sinner needing that of Gods grace. The law revealed sin in us and grace pardons our sins with that of Gods righteousness that makes us come from Spiritual death unto that Spiritual life through Christ. Adam did not die physically as we know he lived to be around 903 years old. It was a Spiritual death that Adam died in as in all of us because of his disobedience and that of ours.

(Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.)
I was formed (shapened) in my mother’s womb as I was conceived in that of my mother living in a sinful world and delivered to that of a sinful world, but iniquity was not found in me until the laws of sin were revealed to me did I also become a sinner as even I grew to transgress the law.

Romans 5:
(12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned
Well then, sin entered the world through one man and through sin Spiritual death and thus Spiritual death has spread through the whole human race because everyone has sinned.

(13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.)
Even though sin is in the world by that of one mans disobedience it is not imputed (us making a mistake) in us until it is revealed to us by now God's law, but the former by His prophets up until the time of Moses. We, no matter what age in or out of the womb, are innocent until we are taught that of what we are transgressing in the law is sin. This is why Jesus said in Matthew 19: 14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven. Other words it is the innocent that the kingdom of God belongs to.

(14 Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.)
Sin existed in the world long before the Law was given. There was no law from the time of Adam to Moses so no one could be accused of the sin of lawbreaking. Yet Spiritual death reigned over all from Adam to Moses even though their sin, unlike that of Adam, was not a matter of breaking a law.

(15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.)
Adam prefigured the One to come, but the gift itself considerably outweighed the fall. If it is certain that through one mans fall so many Spiritually died, it is even more certain that divine grace coming through the One man, Christ Jesus, came to so many as an abundant free gift.

(16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offenses unto justification.)
The results of the free gift also outweigh the results of one man's sin for after one single fall came judgment with a verdict of condemnation now after many falls comes grace with its verdict of acquittal.

(17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
If it is certain that Spiritual death reigned over everyone as the consequence of one man's fall it is even more certain that One man, Christ Jesus, will cause everyone to reign in life who receives the free gift that he does not deserve of being made righteous.

(18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.)
Again, as one mans' fall brought condemnation on everyone so the good act of One man, Christ Jesus, brings everyone to life and makes them justified.

(19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.)
As by one man's disobedience many were made sinners so by One man's, Christ Jesus, obedience many will be made righteous.

(20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound
When law came it was to multiply the opportunities of falling, but however great the number of sins committed grace was even greater.

(21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.)
Just as sin reigned wherever their was Spiritual death so grace will reign to bring eternal life thanks to the righteousness that comes through Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[for_his_glory]

I don't know how the smiley faces got in there as I did not put them there so please ignore them.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally Posted By Ernest T. Bass,

Where in the context does it say the potter himself made/forced the clay to mar? Adam of his own free will chose to disobey and thereby 'marred' himself

The Scriptures do not say "the vessel MARRED HIMSELF by sinning." They specifically say "the vessel [ADAM]" was "MARRED in the HAND OF THE POTTER":

• Jeremiah 18:4 "And the vessel that he made of clay was marred IN THE HAND OF THE POTTER: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it."

Paul does not say "the creature SUBJECTED HIMSELF to vanity by HIS OWN FREE WILL;" but rather Paul says the very opposite: "the creature [ADAM] was MADE SUBJECT to vanity NOT WILLINGLY [not by his OWN FREE WILL]":

• Romans 8:20 "For the creature was made subject to vanity, NOT WILLINGLY [not by his own free will], but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope."

Adam sinned because he was "MARRED in the hand of the Potter" and because Adam, the creature, "was made subject to vanity...by reason of Him..."


The Scriptures are crystal clear and leave no wiggle room concerning this.


How else could Adam have sinned if he didn't have a NATURE that gave him an innate inclination to sin in the first place? Seriously think about it.


Adam's sin was not merely the result of his disobedience. His disobedience was the result of the fact that he was "marred in the hand of the Potter," and he "was shapen ['in the hand of the Potter'] in iniquity, AND IN SIN..."

• Psalms 51:5 "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and IN SIN did my mother conceive me."

 

[OldJesushippie]

I hope you folks don't mind a new member jumping in here. I spent about an hour reading through the 259 posts in this thread. I don't mean to offend anyone here, but I saw a lot of Bible verses thrown around, yet no critical discussion about the texts themselves. Particularly from the proponents of the doctrine of an inherited sin nature. I don't see how any of the passages cited as evidence for the doctrine imply it when examined exegetically.

I'd love to discuss specifics. If you don't mind, I'd like to start with Psalm 58:3 "The wicked are estranged from the womb;
they go astray from birth, speaking lies." (ESV) In this psalm, David is lamenting the corruption of unjust rulers and judges. He is also drawing a contrast between the wicked and the righteous. (verses 10-11). Verse 3 is talking specifically about the wicked. Notice that David is not claiming (in this psalm) that all men are wicked. Some readers may extrapolate that concept from passages found elsewhere, but that isn't the topic of this psalm.
Additionally, the psalm is poetic. It cannot be taken "literally". That would have newborn children speaking: something that is impossible. On top of that it says they "go astray". Go astray from what? If they are born sinful, wouldn't that mean that they are going astray from a sinful condition?

Thank you for letting me jump in. I look forward to some fruitful discussion.

 

[Osgiliath]

Hi OldJesushippie. Welcome!

Originally Posted by OldJesushippie,

I don't see how any of the passages cited as evidence for the doctrine imply it when examined exegetically.

Which passages are you referring to? Just so we can find a starting point, here are a few passages for you to examine exegetically:

• Romans 8:20 "For the creature was made subject to vanity, NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope."

• Jeremiah 18:4 "And the vessel that he made of clay was MARRED IN THE HAND OF THE POTTER: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it."

• Psalms 51:5 "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and IN SIN did my mother conceive me."

• Romans 7:18 "For I know that in me (that is, IN MY FLESH,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."
  
  
  
• 1 Corinthians 15:50 "Now this I say, brethren, that FLESH AND BLOOD cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."
  
  
  
• Matthew 19:17 "And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."
  
  
  
• Romans 8:7 "Because the carnal [flesh] mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."
  
  
  
• Romans 8:8 "So then they that are in THE FLESH cannot please God."

 

[OldJesushippie]

Hi OldJesushippie. Welcome!



Which passages are you referring to?

Well, I mentioned Psalm 58:3 as a starting point. But if you'd like to discuss some of the verses that you brought up: How does Romans 8:20 relate to the doctrine?

 

[Osgiliath]

Well, I mentioned Psalm 58:3 as a starting point. But if you'd like to discuss some of the verses that you brought up: How does Romans 8:20 relate to the doctrine?

Romans 8:20 "For the creature was made subject to vanity, NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope."

You and I are "the creature". It was our Creator who "made [Adam and us] subject to vanity". Was that the result of Adam's fabled 'free will"? Absolutely not. God knew before He ever created Adam that he (and we) would need a Savior. So we are told, "NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him who subjected the same in hope".


God created Adam "marred in the Potter's hand", and had already made provision for Adam's sins by the sacrifice of His own Son. And this was all done and ordained by God "before the world began".

2 Timothy 1:9 "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began."

Titus 1:2 "In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began."