Are We Lost Without A Church?

[WIP]

I don't attend church. I believe it's boring and a waste of time. I do seek the word of God in the bible, through listening to YouTube sermons, reading books written by folks such as John MacArthur and participating in communities such as this.

What about Communion? How do you partake of the Eucharist?

 

[Serving Zion]

By this statement you made: "every church tauts a cliche "there is none righteous for all have fallen short of the glory of God"

Are you saying that this cliche gives A Church license to Sin?

Sin and righteousness are two different words. A sinner can have his righteousness measured, as is suggested by Jesus at Matthew 5:20, and He even suggests in the former verse that those who belong to Him may have lesser righteousness than those who don't. Righteousness is what reigns in the kingdom of God, not sin (John 8:34-35).

I am not saying that any church who quotes Romans 3:10 to justify their errors is licensed to sin. It is written that "we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." (2 Corinthians 5:10 KJV).

 

[PaulChristensen]

Honestly, my alcoholism makes it difficult for me to have normal relationships with my own wife and children. I'm trying to get better.

Perhaps I was a little unkind not knowing your personal challenges. I can also understand because of the judgmental nature of some professing Christians, going to church and mixing with them would be a daunting experience for you with some, having no understanding what addictions are all about, wanting to get a quick cure by casting the drink demon out of you.

Can I recommend a good book to read that might help? It is not the fix-all but it might provide some encouragement. Neil Anderson, "Freedom From Addiction". It is similar to his work, "The Bondage Breaker", which I have found very useful in providing a "non-Pentecostal" way of helping others gain freedom from bondage.

 

[PaulChristensen]

Abusing alcohol, like all sins, separates us from God as well as from our brothers and sisters. I have to change or it will kill me.

You need to be aware of the devil's condemnation bombs. "abusing alcohol...separates us from God" is a demonic lie. It is contrary to the Word of God for a Christian believer. The Scripture says.
"Who is there to condemn us? For Christ Jesus, who died, and more than that was raised to life, is at the right hand of God—and He is interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?" (Romans 8:34-35).

The devil will have got you addicted through your weak points, then he comes along and tries to get you off the foundation of Christ by suggesting that you have separated from God. Remember what Jesus said:
"Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.”(Matthew 15:11).
You are not defined by your alcoholism. You are defined by your faith in Christ. "By grace you were saved through faith, not of yourself, but it was the gift of God to you." (Ephesians 2:8).
You were not saved because you were good enough. You were saved by the grace of God because you were a sinner and needed saving. But as a believer, you have the righteousness of God in Christ. Even though you see yourself as addicted, God sees you through Christ because of your faith in Him. The devil would want to trick you into believing that God has turned away from you because of your addiction, when, nothing will separate you from His love for you.

 

[EvolvingChristian]

You need to be aware of the devil's condemnation bombs. "abusing alcohol...separates us from God" is a demonic lie. It is contrary to the Word of God for a Christian believer. The Scripture says.
"Who is there to condemn us? For Christ Jesus, who died, and more than that was raised to life, is at the right hand of God—and He is interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?" (Romans 8:34-35).

The devil will have got you addicted through your weak points, then he comes along and tries to get you off the foundation of Christ by suggesting that you have separated from God. Remember what Jesus said:
"Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.”(Matthew 15:11).
You are not defined by your alcoholism. You are defined by your faith in Christ. "By grace you were saved through faith, not of yourself, but it was the gift of God to you." (Ephesians 2:8).
You were not saved because you were good enough. You were saved by the grace of God because you were a sinner and needed saving. But as a believer, you have the righteousness of God in Christ. Even though you see yourself as addicted, God sees you through Christ because of your faith in Him. The devil would want to trick you into believing that God has turned away from you because of your addiction, when, nothing will separate you from His love for you.

Great post. Thanks.

 

[Hopeful]

Correct. Therefore the person who is actually (a) sinner is depending on his own righteousness than trusting in the righteousness of God in Christ.

I agree, as he feels his unrighteousness is righteous enough.

 

[Hopeful]

You need to be aware of the devil's condemnation bombs. "abusing alcohol...separates us from God" is a demonic lie. It is contrary to the Word of God for a Christian believer. The Scripture says.
"Who is there to condemn us? For Christ Jesus, who died, and more than that was raised to life, is at the right hand of God—and He is interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?" (Romans 8:34-35).

The devil will have got you addicted through your weak points, then he comes along and tries to get you off the foundation of Christ by suggesting that you have separated from God. Remember what Jesus said:
"Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.”(Matthew 15:11).
You are not defined by your alcoholism. You are defined by your faith in Christ. "By grace you were saved through faith, not of yourself, but it was the gift of God to you." (Ephesians 2:8).
You were not saved because you were good enough. You were saved by the grace of God because you were a sinner and needed saving. But as a believer, you have the righteousness of God in Christ. Even though you see yourself as addicted, God sees you through Christ because of your faith in Him. The devil would want to trick you into believing that God has turned away from you because of your addiction, when, nothing will separate you from His love for you.

You don't think idolatry separates men from God?
I do.

 

[PaulChristensen]

You don't think idolatry separates men from God?
I do.

You are talking apples and oranges here. An alcoholic is not an idolater. I'm amazed that you don't know the difference!

 

[Elihoenai]

Sin and righteousness are two different words. A sinner can have his righteousness measured, as is suggested by Jesus at Matthew 5:20, and He even suggests in the former verse that those who belong to Him may have lesser righteousness than those who don't. Righteousness is what reigns in the kingdom of God, not sin (John 8:34-35).

I am not saying that any church who quotes Romans 3:10 to justify their errors is licensed to sin. It is written that "we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." (2 Corinthians 5:10 KJV).

Romans 10:3 King James Version

3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Do the Scribes and Pharisees work to establish their own Self-Righteousness? Is the Self-Righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees Sin?

I'm saying that A Church uses Scripture and Clichés to give license to Sin. In my experience the so-called Christian Church is Licentious.

 

[GodsGrace]

Romans 10:3 King James Version

3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Do the Scribes and Pharisees work to establish their own Self-Righteousness? Is the Self-Righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees Sin?

I'm saying that A Church uses Scripture and Clichés to give license to Sin. In my experience the so-called Christian Church is Licentious.

Elihoenai
Not every Christian church is licentious. Or encourages any other type of sin.

What you may be speaking of are churches, or mostly non-denomination congregations, that teach that grace is sufficient for us and we need do nothing....or that we are not under any law...etc.

These have been called easy believism churches. They make the gospel to be very easy - I don't know why. Maybe it's just more pleasant sounding and will attract more persons....

Anyway, yes, self-righteousness is sinful.
Our righteousness in Christ is not sinful.
We can say we are saved...but not by our own righteousness...
but only at the foot of the cross.

 

[Elihoenai]

Elihoenai
Not every Christian church is licentious. Or encourages any other type of sin.

What you may be speaking of are churches, or mostly non-denomination congregations, that teach that grace is sufficient for us and we need do nothing....or that we are not under any law...etc.

These have been called easy believism churches. They make the gospel to be very easy - I don't know why. Maybe it's just more pleasant sounding and will attract more persons....

Anyway, yes, self-righteousness is sinful.
Our righteousness in Christ is not sinful.
We can say we are saved...but not by our own righteousness...
but only at the foot of the cross.

Matthew 16:18 King James Version

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Therefore, I will ask the question again and see if there are any takers:

The Church is the one the gates of hell has not prevailed against. Does any member on these forums know of "The Church by Messiah/Christ Yeshua/Jesus"?

 

[Hopeful]

What about Communion? How do you partake of the Eucharist?

I make my own unleavened bread.
And I buy a bottle of red wine. (Which lasts me for months.)

 

[Hopeful]

You are talking apples and oranges here. An alcoholic is not an idolater. I'm amazed that you don't know the difference!

Sure it is.
God said not to be a drunk, and drunks put their own feelings/wants above God's.
That is classic idolatry !

 

[Serving Zion]

Romans 10:3 King James Version

3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

And "a little yeast puffs up the whole dough". It's sad how the whole has to become puffed up by it. That's not the way the mature would respond, that proves the whole is immature and inclined to be easily inflamed.

Do the Scribes and Pharisees work to establish their own Self-Righteousness?

I'm not sure I know any Scribes or Pharisees in person, so I can't really say that they are working towards their own self-righteousness. There are similarities in the Christian churches of the character of some types of Christians that take on the roles of teaching and pastoring, that is commonly spoken of as being equivalent to the types who were known as Scribes and Pharisees in the bible. If you want to find my opinion on those people, I'd like to have examples (if it is possible to comply with the ToS, especially 1.4:

Do not state a negative opinion about a member's denomination, leaders, founders, or the veracity of a member's faith.

If it is possible to give examples of a general pattern that could be useful (eg: Ephesians 4:29).

Is the Self-Righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees Sin?

Of course! (Eg: Matthew 23:34-35) ... Otherwise, how could He have been pierced at all (Isaiah 53:5)? (Consider John 19:11).

 

[Serving Zion]

I'm saying that A Church uses Scripture and Clichés to give license to Sin. In my experience the so-called Christian Church is Licentious.

I too am still searching for one that is without those flaws. It is obvious that until Jesus is able to fulfil Malachi 3:3, we will not see Malachi 3:4. I think that despite all the blood shed in the past 2,000 years for the sake of a covenant which imparts sonship upon it's followers, the proof is ample that only Jesus Christ is able to do that work. Praise God that He is returning!

 

[Serving Zion]

Matthew 16:18 King James Version

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Therefore, I will ask the question again and see if there are any takers:

The Church is the one the gates of hell has not prevailed against. Does any member on these forums know of "The Church by Messiah/Christ Yeshua/Jesus"?

It is scattered https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=Strike+shepherd+scattered&version=NKJV and it is obscured (Matthew 13:26-27).

 

[Elihoenai]

And "a little yeast puffs up the whole dough". It's sad how the whole has to become puffed up by it. That's not the way the mature would respond, that proves the whole is immature and inclined to be easily inflamed.


I'm not sure I know any Scribes or Pharisees in person, so I can't really say that they are working towards their own self-righteousness. There are similarities in the Christian churches of the character of some types of Christians that take on the roles of teaching and pastoring, that is commonly spoken of as being equivalent to the types who were known as Scribes and Pharisees in the bible. If you want to find my opinion on those people, I'd like to have examples (if it is possible to comply with the ToS, especially 1.4:

Do not state a negative opinion about a member's denomination, leaders, founders, or the veracity of a member's faith.

If it is possible to give examples of a general pattern that could be useful (eg: Ephesians 4:29).



Of course! (Eg: Matthew 23:34-35) ... Otherwise, how could He have been pierced at all (Isaiah 53:5)? (Consider John 19:11).

I don't know what you talking about with this post. It appears you have gone way off topic.

What is the Inverse of Righteousness?

 

[Elihoenai]

I too am still searching for one that is without those flaws. It is obvious that until Jesus is able to fulfil Malachi 3:3, we will not see Malachi 3:4. I think that despite all the blood shed in the past 2,000 years for the sake of a covenant which imparts sonship upon it's followers, the proof is ample that only Jesus Christ is able to do that work. Praise God that He is returning!

Are you talking about the Second Coming? If yes, in what form will Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ return?

 

[Elihoenai]

It is scattered https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=Strike+shepherd+scattered&version=NKJV and it is obscured (Matthew 13:26-27).

2 Corinthians 6:14 King James Version

14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

Have you attended one of these Scattered and Obscured Churches? If yes, what Churches are you talking about?

 

[PaulChristensen]

Romans 10:3 King James Version

3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Do the Scribes and Pharisees work to establish their own Self-Righteousness? Is the Self-Righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees Sin?

I'm saying that A Church uses Scripture and Clichés to give license to Sin. In my experience the so-called Christian Church is Licentious.

I don't know of any church that I have been associated with that gives a licence to sin. I wonder what type of churches you have been to?