Baptism being necessary for salvation...

[Free]

Paul sure seems to think that baptism is more than just a symbolic act.

 

[Alabaster]

Paul sure seems to think that baptism is more than just a symbolic act.

He teaches that it is representational of Christ's death and resurrection, and by doing so, we identify with Christ.

 

[Alabaster]

Water Baptism - What does it symbolize?

According to the Bible, the symbolism of baptism declares that three things happen to believers who are baptized:

(1) they die with Christ to their old self;

(2) they rise with Christ to become a new creature; and

(3) they are incorporated in their new life with a living community which looks for the coming of the Lord (Romans 6:1-11).

Contrary to what some denominations teach, it seems obvious that a Christian's baptism must necessarily require a responsible decision to accept Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord, and therefore, must be delayed until an age of reason or discretion (knowing right from wrong within God's perspective).




Water Baptism

 

[Free]

He teaches that it is representational of Christ's death and resurrection, and by doing so, we identify with Christ.

According to Rom 6:3-6, Paul certainly seems to think that baptism is much more than something that is merely representational.

 

[Alabaster]

According to Rom 6:3-6, Paul certainly seems to think that baptism is much more than something that is merely representational.

It is really a good idea to post the scriptural reference, dontcha think?

Romans 6:1-11 NLT
1 Well then, should we keep on sinning so that God can show us more and more of his wonderful grace? 2 Of course not! Since we have died to sin, how can we continue to live in it? 3 Or have you forgotten that when we were joined with Christ Jesus in baptism, we joined him in his death? 4 For we died and were buried with Christ by baptism. And just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glorious power of the Father, now we also may live new lives. 5 Since we have been united with him in his death, we will also be raised to life as he was. 6 We know that our old sinful selves were crucified with Christ so that sin might lose its power in our lives. We are no longer slaves to sin. 7 For when we died with Christ we were set free from the power of sin. 8 And since we died with Christ, we know we will also live with him. 9 We are sure of this because Christ was raised from the dead, and he will never die again. Death no longer has any power over him. 10 When he died, he died once to break the power of sin. But now that he lives, he lives for the glory of God. 11 So you also should consider yourselves to be dead to the power of sin and alive to God through Christ Jesus.




Did you die? Hardly. Spiritually you joined with Jesus in His death, burial and resurrection. It is a means of identification with Him---by the representation of the water.

 

[dadof10]

Jesus was only asking the young man to FOLLOW HIM. He knew the man's heart and what was his life's focus. Jesus doesn't require us to sell our possessions or ANY OTHER DEED for salvation.

Matthew 19: 21-22 NLT
Jesus told him, “If you want to be perfect, go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.†But when the young man heard this, he went away sad, for he had many possessions.

You really have an aversion to answering point blank questions, don't you? First baptism being a "symbol", now this.

When the rich, young man asked Jesus what he must do to inherit Eternal Life, what was Jesus' response? Please don't cut and paste a verse from James or Tobit, just answer the question.

 

[RoadDebris]

We're saved by faith AND works. Not one or the other.

According to the Bible, works are the effect of salvation, not it's cause.

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. - Eph. 2:8-9

 

[RoadDebris]

Works do not save us. They are the supernatural outflow of a renewed life due to salvation. They are an unmistakeable mark of a life lived for Jesus Christ.

Whoo hoo! God is good, all the time.

 

[RoadDebris]

I think we are all saved in the way the thief on the cross was,he reached a point where he believed that Jesus was who He said He was and THEN by an act of his will he reached out to Christ personally and asked for salvation from the Person of Christ Himself...now that is how a person is saved!!! It is our faith demonstrated by an act of reaching out to Christ for salvation.

But Paul specifically refutes that idea. In Ephesians 2:9 he says our salvation is not by our works. The Greek word for works used there is "ergon", which means any action at all, including intent. Further, Paul says that our salvation is not dependent on our desire in Romans 9:16. The thief on the cross received salvation the same way we all did, God gave it to him, in spite of his total unworthiness.

The thing is, God doesn't owe anyone salvation. He could have chosen to damn every single one of us and He would have been absolutely justified in doing so. Thankfully, He has chosen to be merciful on some, sparing them from the justice they deserve while meeting out justice to the rest. That is his right. He is God.

 

[RoadDebris]

Do you smell snake oil when RC Sproul talks about salvation by grace through faith ALONE? This concept is specifically rejected by Scripture, unless you have a nuanced way of interpreting James.

I notice you didn't answer my direct question. I'll post it again.

If we are saved by faith alone does that mean that anyone who dies before the age of reason is burning in Hell? Waiting....

Sent using my cellular telephone device via the interweb.

Trust me, as a Catholic you don't want to go anywhere near James. James is all about defeating pretense and your doctrine is as pretentious as they come.

James isn't claiming people save themselves by what they do. If he was then the Bible would contradict itself, just like the RCC Catechism. He's telling people that claimed faith and actual faith are not necessarily the same thing. If it doesn't walk like a duck, swim like a duck, and quack like a duck, it's probably not a duck.

 

[RoadDebris]

The "works are not connected to salvation" position is also challenged by Paul in Romans. I have never seen anyone successfully argue that Paul does not mean precisely what he writes here in Romans 2:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

We get rewards for what we do. Awards night in heaven is going to rock!

 

[RoadDebris]

joe, if i might, i will chime since i understand your position more then some posting.

first off the protestant chruch if they taught solo fide correctly would find that its more in common with what you say. one must have faith with works in order to have true FAITH.if one doesnt have any sign of a changed heart(note: not perfection but an overall desire to not sin,and to please God by reading his word and winning souls and recieving sacraments) then he or she cant be one of HIS!

the problem for some that aren't calvinists and except the eternal security doctrine they are in a contridiction of theology.as if one doenst want to serve God and loves sex more then God and wont go to church and also wont obey God somehow God will take them anyway to heaven. these persons erroseousnly say that God wont leave you nor forsake you. true but you can tell him no! they will say the he wont let you go to hell since you repented sincerly at one time or you werent saved in the first place.the question is freewill is then denied one cant turn from God as he wont let you and will take you to heaven despite your desire to die.

its not the lutherans of today to my knowledge that espouse this position nor the arminists(of which i am and i think westexas as well).both handy and mike are lutherans and neither of them espouse eternal security.

Jason, what Reformed Theology teaches is that people are literally changed at salvation. Before they're saved their will is inclined away from God, toward their own glorification. After salvation their will is inclined toward God, toward His glorification. So the saved walk in line with God's will because they want to and there's a consistency to their actions. People who "believe" for a while and then change their minds were never actually saved. Their own depraved will eventually wins out. No man can follow God by his own will unless God gives him spiritual rebirth.

 

[RoadDebris]

Oh, and I'm still waiting for our Catholic friends to supply a dictionary reference that defines necessary as "periodically essential."

 

[RoadDebris]

For the record, by the way, I just want to state that folks who say believers don't need to be baptized are full of malarkey. Physical baptism isn't the cause of salvation, but we are commanded by God to be baptized and if one is genuinely saved they will desire to please God and follow his instructions.

 

[Alabaster]

For the record, by the way, I just want to state that folks who say believers don't need to be baptized are full of malarkey. Physical baptism isn't the cause of salvation, but we are commanded by God to be baptized and if one is genuinely saved they will desire to please God and follow his instructions.

That's right!

 

[Alabaster]

We get rewards for what we do. Awards night in heaven is going to rock!

 

[Alabaster]

You really have an aversion to answering point blank questions, don't you? First baptism being a "symbol", now this.

When the rich, young man asked Jesus what he must do to inherit Eternal Life, what was Jesus' response? Please don't cut and paste a verse from James or Tobit, just answer the question.

It is important to use Scripture to give an appropriate answer, which I have proven as you had the wrong information based on what you think rather than what the inspired word actually says.

 

[Alabaster]

Trust me, as a Catholic you don't want to go anywhere near James. James is all about defeating pretense and your doctrine is as pretentious as they come.

James isn't claiming people save themselves by what they do. If he was then the Bible would contradict itself, just like the RCC Catechism. He's telling people that claimed faith and actual faith are not necessarily the same thing. If it doesn't walk like a duck, swim like a duck, and quack like a duck, it's probably not a duck.

I'm a duck!

 

[francisdesales]

So, in the Catholic view, baptism is sometimes necessary. Very well. I like to think of myself as being open minded (i.e. willing to accept the truth and deny it's opposite). If my use of the dictionary is really that lacking then prove it. Post an objective definition from a dictionary that defines the word necessary as meaning "sometimes essential" as you are claiming it means within Catholicism.

...waiting

Waiting for an answer to your red herring, you won't get...

I looked at my responses over the past few days on this subject and your red herrings, and frankly, I have come to the conclusion that either you are being purposely obstinate, have no ability to comprehend language, or you just like to argue. I don't have the time, nor do I see the spiritual value in arguing over something already explained, and on several posts, both by myself, and Dad. My post that cites the Catechism paragraphs are quite clear, in retrospect. If you still don't get it, there is nothing more to say - except this one last attempt.

All people aware of the Baptism as a requirement to eternal life (as per John 3) must be baptised. It is absolutely necessary. Never have I said it was "sometimes necessary" for such people. That's your strawman in the making. People who are not aware of Baptism have been given by God other alternatives to gain eternal life. The OP of this thread asks whether baptism is necessary. I answer, "It depends on the circumstances". The Bible clearly makes that differentiation between rejection and ignorance, one that the Catechism also states - IF YOU BOTHERED TO READ IT...

Your red herring about 'sometimes necessary' is argumentative - since whether Baptism is necessary depends upon the circumstance. "Does the person know about Baptism?". If so, it is absolutely necessary. There is no "sometimes necessary", nor have I ever stated this. Thus, your continuing red herrings and refusal to address the post with Catechism citations make it painfully obvious where your heart lies on this discussion. I have found that such discussions are akin to nailing jello to a tree. No thanks.

Can I make this any clearer for RoadDebris, my fellow forum members? If so, help me out here...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Jason, what Reformed Theology teaches is that people are literally changed at salvation. Before they're saved their will is inclined away from God, toward their own glorification. After salvation their will is inclined toward God, toward His glorification. So the saved walk in line with God's will because they want to and there's a consistency to their actions. People who "believe" for a while and then change their minds were never actually saved. Their own depraved will eventually wins out. No man can follow God by his own will unless God gives him spiritual rebirth.

I agreed with your statement until "never actually saved." It's sophistry.

Think about it. It is a foolish proposition, since then you will NEVER know if you were saved, since a future sin will prove that you were only fooling yourself... You don't know the future - and to say you will never sin, the Bible calls such a person a "liar".

"Reformed" theology requires that man be perfect, otherwise they were never saved! They totally forget that God is a merciful God who forgives iniquity, even AFTER one is "saved"... Perhaps this stems from their inability to deal with such verses as 'repent and believe' ...

Regards