Baptism being necessary for salvation...

[francisdesales]

We get rewards for what we do.

Yes, eternal life is quite a reward...

 

[Alabaster]

Yes, eternal life is quite a reward...

That's just the main one...there will be MANY!

 

[jasoncran]

Jason, what Reformed Theology teaches is that people are literally changed at salvation. Before they're saved their will is inclined away from God, toward their own glorification. After salvation their will is inclined toward God, toward His glorification. So the saved walk in line with God's will because they want to and there's a consistency to their actions. People who "believe" for a while and then change their minds were never actually saved. Their own depraved will eventually wins out. No man can follow God by his own will unless God gives him spiritual rebirth.

so why did God warn of blotting men out in the book of life? one's name has to be in thier.let me ask you this? Does God force you to do his will? the changed line isnt the case. peter denied the lord and yet the lord came to him and called him agian. peter had a will to deny him and to refuse him. was peters denial suddenly not enough for you? he did realise his errs but you cant rule out that he did deny him and was capable of it.

let me put it this way.if you a your wife marry and she decided i dont love you anymore and you try to make it work and she hands you the divorce papers who left whom? love is a two way street.we have to be loved first but when he does love us we can love back but its act we MUST choice to do daily.no salvation isnt so easily lost but a continual falling away from the lord will have eternal consequences.

 

[Drew]

We get rewards for what we do. Awards night in heaven is going to rock!

But this is not what the text actually says - we are told that we get eternal life according to what we do:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

 

[RoadDebris]

I hope I don't have to follow any first century martyrs or anything. I mean, how'd you like to follow Stephen and his El Capitan sized crown for being stoned to death with: "And now for best argumentation for Jesus on an internet forum..."

 

[RoadDebris]

@Jason, I think this is a pretty good reference for the Book of Life:
The book of life

 

[RoadDebris]

I agreed with your statement until "never actually saved." It's sophistry.

Think about it. It is a foolish proposition, since then you will NEVER know if you were saved, since a future sin will prove that you were only fooling yourself... You don't know the future - and to say you will never sin, the Bible calls such a person a "liar".

"Reformed" theology requires that man be perfect, otherwise they were never saved! They totally forget that God is a merciful God who forgives iniquity, even AFTER one is "saved"... Perhaps this stems from their inability to deal with such verses as 'repent and believe' ...

Regards

Not according to the Bible. James tells us that our works tell the tail, but we are not expected to be perfect. Grace covers the sins of the saved; past, present, and future.

 

[dadof10]

We don't baptize sinners, do we? Baptism is for the ALREADY saved.

First of all, "already saved" people aren't sinners? Are you saved? So, you don't sin? Really?

Secondly, I know there are examples in Scripture of people who repent then are baptized, but where is it written that "baptism is for the already saved"?...What am I thinking... I forgot who I was talking to. Like you're actually going to back up any of your ridiculous notions with Scripture...

The faith to believe is from the Holy Spirit. It is not a work.

Here are your exact words:

"No, accepting Jesus is not a work. It is a false Gospel to attach baptism to the FREE GIFT of salvation, however. There is nothing we can do to be saved apart from the faith we exercise to believe."

We must "exercise faith" to be saved. Isn't that what the above says? If we MUST DO something to merit salvation, how is this not "works salvation" by your own definition?

That is an add-on doctrine that is completely UNBIBLICAL, and has NO MERIT whatsoever.

Your doctrine of baby baptism is also a work, foisted upon unsuspecting babies to assuage fear.

Tell me, what do the babies (the beneficiaries of the Grace) do to merit salvation? If the answer is "nothing", which it is, then, according to Catholic teaching, salvation is by Grace alone.

Baptizing babies is unbiblical? There are two examples of entire "households" being baptized when only the head of the household "exercised faith". Do you think the children under the age of reason within the household were excluded?

Also, how is it that the members of their households were baptized, yet did not "exercise faith"? Huuuummmm....I guess baptism isn't for the "already saved" after all.

Your amusing charge is rather hypocritical, since Catholic traditions are not founded upon Holy Writ.

But ALL of your doctrines are, aren't they? All I'm asking is for you to prove your contentions. If the contention is not in Scripture, it's a false doctrine, correct? Well...

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Baptism is a symbolic act that says, "I turn away from my sins. I die to myself and to my sins. I am now a follower of Jesus." And when a person starts trusting Jesus and Jesus only to forgive them of their sins, they are forgiven. When we do this we die to ourselves, and turn our life over to Christ and our FIRST ACT OF OBEDIENCE needs to be baptism. Baptism is an outward symbol of an inward change that has already occurred - salvation.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Baptism is only a symbol of being a follower of Jesus. Baptism is not required for salvation! It is commanded by our Lord and our first act of obedience as Christians should be baptism. The thief on the cross who was hanging next to Jesus was never baptized. Baptism is not essential for salvation.[/FONT]

Sorry, simply saying the non-biblical doctrine over and over doesn't make it magically appear in Scripture. As I said before, either post the verses or admit you believe a non-Biblical doctrine. Or, better yet, just accept the biblical doctrine that water baptism is salvific.

 

[francisdesales]

Not according to the Bible. James tells us that our works tell the tail, but we are not expected to be perfect. Grace covers the sins of the saved; past, present, and future.

Yes, I am perfectly aware that we are saved by works and by faith, not by either alone. Nor are we required to be perfect, which is why one must reject the idea of 'you were never saved to begin with' if one commits a sin after regeneration...

Grace only covers the sins of those who repent of them AFTER THEY ARE COMMITTED AND REPENTED OF. God doesn't forgive you future sins unconditionally. The OT is pretty clear on how this cycle works... The NT didn't change that. Repent. If you sin again, repent again.

Even if it means "seventy times seven times"...

Regards

 

[dadof10]

People are conscious of their salvation experience. No one can be saved by conferring it upon a baby who can't even repent. Repentance is necessary in order to come to salvation.

More "works", huh? Now we MUST repent, and "exercise faith" to be saved. Can't wait to see what requirement is in your next post. I'm sure you will still claim that in your system salvation is a " free gift from God that can't be earned".

Baptizing babies does nothing in the spiritual realm---

Chapter and ver.....Never mind...

 

[dadof10]

Water Baptism - What does it symbolize?

According to the Bible, the symbolism of baptism declares that three things happen to believers who are baptized:

(1) they die with Christ to their old self;

(2) they rise with Christ to become a new creature; and

(3) they are incorporated in their new life with a living community which looks for the coming of the Lord (Romans 6:1-11).

Contrary to what some denominations teach, it seems obvious that a Christian's baptism must necessarily require a responsible decision to accept Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord, and therefore, must be delayed until an age of reason or discretion (knowing right from wrong within God's perspective).




Water Baptism

Oh, well....Why didn't you say you had a website instead of Scripture to back up your claims. That makes all the difference. :biglol

 

[francisdesales]

According to The New Saint Joseph Baltimore Catechism, Vol. 1, 1969, p. 141, "Penance is a sacrament by which sins committed after baptism are forgiven." It goes on to state in question 171 that in order to receive the sacrament of penance worthily the Roman Catholic must, first, examine his conscience; second, be sorry for his sins; third, make up his mind not to sin again; fourth, confess his sins to the priest; and fifth, be willing to do the penance the priest gives them to do. Thus, we see that this so-called sacrament is a works based means of gaining forgiveness of sins from God. This is in contradiction to scripture. A right relationship with God is achieved through faith in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and not by our works, or combination of our works and God's grace, because our works are nothing more than filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6).

• "being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus," (Rom. 3:24).
• "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness," (Rom. 4:3).
• "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness," (Rom. 4:5).
• "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ," (Rom. 5:1).
• "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him," (Rom. 5:9).
• "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace," (Rom. 11:6).
• "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God," (Eph. 2:8).

As you can see, the Bible teaches us that we are made right with God by faith apart from works. Notice how the Bible contrasts faith and works when it comes to being made right with God. The Bible rejects works of any kind as a means of being made right with God. You'd think that this would be clear to the Roman Catholic Church. But, it isn't. The New Saint Joseph Baltimore Catechism, Vol. 2, 1969, p. 199 says,

"The priest gives us a penance after confession that we may make some atonement to God for our sins, receive help to avoid them in the future, and make some satisfaction for the temporal punishment due to them."
​

What is amazing in this quote is that it is not Christ's sacrifice on the cross that is the focus of atonement for our sins, but the works of the individual via penance. This is in blatant contradiction to scripture which says that we are cleansed of our sins by the blood of Christ, not by our works.

• "how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?" (Heb. 9:14).
• "but if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin," (1 John 1:7).

The Scriptures teach us that Christ's blood cleanses us of ALL sin, not some, not part, but all. This includes our sins of the past, present, and future and it is not necessary to have our sins forgiven via our own effort.

• "I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly," (Gal. 2:21).
• "Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. 22 But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe," (Gal. 3:21-22).
• "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace," (Rom. 11:6).

The Roman Catholic Teaching is wrong because it is contrary to scripture because it uses penance - works that a person does - as a means to become right with God.




Penance | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

I just saw this - and I don't want to side-track this thread with another sacrament, but the Sacrament of Reconciliation ("Penance") is an act of God, it is not a means by which men become right with God. God breathed upon the Apostles and gave them the authority to forgive sins, something not possible unless the penitent actually confesses them... Jesus sent the Apostles, JUST AS the Father sent the Son. I contend that the event of John 20 is indeed about Reconciliation and God working through men to provide it to future Christians who are in sore need of reconciliation.

"PEACE BE WITH YOU", the Lord said. "Fear no more. I forgive you for bailing out on me at the Cross...". "Now, go and grant peace to others who fail, since I forgive them, too."

Alabaster, if you wish to continue with this side-subject, please begin another thread, as this is about baptism and its necessity...

Regards

 

[dadof10]

But Paul specifically refutes that idea. In Ephesians 2:9 he says our salvation is not by our works. The Greek word for works used there is "ergon", which means any action at all, including intent.

Before I comment, I would like to know if you really think that every time the word "ergon" is used in the NT it means "any action at all, including intent", or if it can have a variety of meanings depending upon the context. For example, when Paul talks about faith vs. works I think he's primarily speaking of obligatory works of the law.

 

[dadof10]

Jesus was only asking the young man to FOLLOW HIM. He knew the man's heart and what was his life's focus. Jesus doesn't require us to sell our possessions or ANY OTHER DEED for salvation.

Matthew 19: 21-22 NLT
Jesus told him, “If you want to be perfect, go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.†But when the young man heard this, he went away sad, for he had many possessions.

More distractions....

Why won't you answer the question? The man asked what must he do to inherit eternal life. Jesus' answer (since you refuse to) was "keep the commandments".

I'll ask you the same question (not that I'm expecting to get an answer):

What must I do to inherit eternal life? Will your answer be different from Jesus'?

 

[Alabaster]

Oh, well....Why didn't you say you had a website instead of Scripture to back up your claims. That makes all the difference. :biglol

My claims are strong. If I can find a writer that puts it better than me I use it and give him/her credit.

The word of God backs me up---there's no other authority. Try using it properly, yourself, rather than misstating what the scriptures say.

 

[dadof10]

Trust me, as a Catholic you don't want to go anywhere near James. James is all about defeating pretense and your doctrine is as pretentious as they come.

Nice try...I guess all that "we are justified by works [all things done, even intent], not faith alone" has some nuances, then? Only Catholics who use words like "necessary" are required to defend the LITERAL use of the word, with no wiggle room whatsoever. You're the only one allowed to pull the "nuance" card, huh?

James isn't claiming people save themselves by what they do. If he was
then the Bible would contradict itself, just like the RCC Catechism.

Straw man. Where does the Church teach "people save themselves"? You are the only one allowed to use straw man argumentation too?

He's telling people that claimed faith and actual faith are not necessarily the same thing. If it doesn't walk like a duck, swim like a duck, and quack like a duck, it's probably not a duck.

The literal words are "not justified by faith alone but by deeds". There is no contradiction with Paul if the word "works" is interpreted as "works of the law", which assumes putting God in obligation to man. That's the only way to reconcile the two authors, save destroying the text and doing back flips to keep your heretical, man-made doctrine of sola-fide. Please try to use the Calvinist actual/claimed anemic arguments. They are laughable at best.

 

[dadof10]

My claims are strong. If I can find a writer that puts it better than me I use it and give him/her credit.

The word of God backs me up---there's no other authority. Try using it properly, yourself, rather than misstating what the scriptures say.

Where? Where does the Word of God back up your foolish contention that baptism is symbolic? Please post the verse or admit you are wrong. Simply repeating a heresy does not make it true.

 

[Alabaster]

More distractions....

Why won't you answer the question? The man asked what must he do to inherit eternal life. Jesus' answer (since you refuse to) was "keep the commandments".

Jesus knew that we cannot keep the commandments for salvation. Don't you know this, too? We are witnessing Jesus handling with love a young man whose faith is in his riches.

I'll ask you the same question (not that I'm expecting to get an answer):

What must I do to inherit eternal life? Will your answer be different from Jesus'?

Of course! Unless you are a rich man, satisfied that you have not transgressed any commandment of God.

We receive eternal life by acknowledging our hopeless state before the holy God and receiving Jesus Christ's great forgiveness by His shed blood on Calvary and we follow after Him with our lives. He said, "Follow Me."

If you dispute this, then you have been deceived by a gospel of works for salvation.

 

[Alabaster]

Where? Where does the Word of God back up your foolish contention that baptism is symbolic? Please post the verse or admit you are wrong. Simply repeating a heresy does not make it true.

I have already produced the proof. You reject it.

 

[dadof10]

My claims are strong. If I can find a writer that puts it better than me I use it and give him/her credit.

The word of God backs me up---there's no other authority. Try using it properly, yourself, rather than misstating what the scriptures say.

Where? Where does the Word of God back up your foolish contention that baptism is symbolic? Please post the verse or admit you are wrong. Simply repeating a heresy does not make it true.

The "writer" you use is ASSUMING YOUR CONTENTION!!!! That's called circular reasoning. Does he give verses that claim baptism is merely symbolic? NO. So how exactly does he help your case? And back around again....