Baptism being necessary for salvation...

[francisdesales]

The more your wilfully irrational theology is exposed the more opportunity people have to see it for what it is.

More bluster... The underlined posts of the Catechism says it all, you are simply in denial.

I'm no theologian

As tempting as that was, I won't bother commenting...

Yes you keep saying that, but you've yet to provide an objective definition for necessary that defines it as meaning "sometimes essential."

Somtimes essential? Did I make that argument? I said it was not absolutely required - and if one is ignorant, it is not absolutely required, isn't that clear enough?

It is indeed absolutely essential for EVERYONE who has been taught the Gospel. However, everyone has not been taught the Gospel, so only a Calvinist could simultaneously argue both sides of the fence, that God is just, but God also condemns people to eternal hell "just because they never heard of Jesus"...

THUS, the Catechism is indeed correct, you continue to miss the point.

Look at the underlined Catechism citations. It is clear that EVERYONE on the face of the world is not subject to the "ESSENTIAL REQUIREMENT of water baptism", which is the point of this thread.

The RCC definition is self-defeating, like a square defined as being round. And you're right, I'm obstinately opposed to illogical ideas and counterfeit religions.

More babble. By your own definition, you are opposed to yourself...

You are plain obstinate to opening your eyes to statements that I even underlined. Can you actually address my point, rather than more name-calling? Or is that as good as it gets from your end???

False. Any requirement that is necessary is absolutely essential, by definition. The thief on the cross was not baptised. The assertion of the Catechism is proven to be antithetical to scripture.

You clearly are clueless on the utilization of a dictionary, aren't you...

Furthermore, you inability to actually READ the Catechism sentences that I underline prevent you from seeing common sense. It is apparent that the thief was unaware of a requirement of being baptised by the Spirit of God through water baptism (which hadn't come yet...) and was not rejecting anything. In John 3, Jesus speaks of willful rejection, not ignorance. Just as the Catechism...

Actually, God, through Paul, tells us our desire is not the cause of our salvation:

It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. Rom. 9:16

Both are necessary, for without repentance and belief, you WILL NOT be saved.
Yes, I know I have repeated it, but you have have no answer for it.

 

[jasoncran]

pointless to argue, walk away.

 

[Alabaster]

People who have deathbed conversions to Christ, or late in life conversions and don't get around to baptism are just as saved as any baptized believer!

Saying a person is not saved because he has not obeyed the call to baptism is promoting salvation by works. That is a false Gospel. An unbaptized Christian still undergoes spiritual regeneration.

It's GOOD thing that God looks on the heart!

 

[dadof10]

At dadof10, the proper name of the fallacy escapes me at the moment, but there are few arguments that are more lame than saying, "Your view is also irrational so that proves mine is valid."

You missed the point. I wasn't trying to "prove" any points, Francis already did that and to add any more would be piling on. I'll try to be more clear and less lame.

Francis clearly explained that there are NUANCES when elaborating on complex doctrinal themes, for instance, Scripture CLEARLY states "Man is NOT justified by faith alone, but by deeds". Certainly within your faith tradition, there is room for nuance when interpreting this verse? That's my point. Here is a question:

Since you believe that only faith saves, do all people who die under the age of reason burn in eternal Hell, or is there some nuance to your understanding of salvation by faith ALONE?

If you would focus less on attacking the Catholic Church and more on trying to understand what people are saying you wouldn't misunderstand as much. There is no violation of either English or logic to say that water baptism is NECESSARY for salvation for those who can accept it, or that baptism is the ordinary means of salvation.

It's also a straw man, since I'm not defending Calvinism or any "ism" in the first place. I'm defending orthodox (small o) Christianity.

You quote R.C. Sproul every other post, respond to "Arminianism" even when you are talking to Catholics and claim to defend "orthodox" Christianity. It sure seems you have some Calvinist leanings. You sound like James White. What's next, "Your argument's not with me, it's with Paul..."?

 

[dadof10]

People who have deathbed conversions to Christ, or late in life conversions and don't get around to baptism are just as saved as any baptized believer!

Is this taught in the same chapter as "baptism is merely symbolic"? I agree, that "deathbed converts" are saved, that's the lesson of the Thief on the cross, however I don't see where laziness is called a virtue in Scripture.

Saying a person is not saved because he has not obeyed the call to baptism is promoting salvation by works. That is a false Gospel.

Is obeying the call to "accept Jesus as Lord and Savior" a work also? Isn't it DOING something that's NECESSARY for salvation? Another false Gospel..?

An unbaptized Christian still undergoes spiritual regeneration.

Chapter and verse, please.

 

[Alabaster]

Is this taught in the same chapter as "baptism is merely symbolic"? I agree, that "deathbed converts" are saved, that's the lesson of the Thief on the cross, however I don't see where laziness is called a virtue in Scripture.

Not being baptized FOR WHATEVER REASON doesn't NULLIFY salvation.

Is obeying the call to "accept Jesus as Lord and Savior" a work also? Isn't it DOING something that's NECESSARY for salvation? Another false Gospel..?

No, accepting Jesus is not a work. It is a false Gospel to attach baptism to the FREE GIFT of salvation, however. There is nothing we can do to be saved apart from the faith we exercise to believe.

Chapter and verse, please.

John 5:24 NLT
“I tell you the truth, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.


John 8:24 NLT
That is why I said that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I Am who I claim to be, you will die in your sins.”



John 11:25-26a NLT
Jesus told her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Anyone who believes in me will live, even after dying. Everyone who lives in me and believes in me will never ever die.



John 3:15-16 NLT
so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life. For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.



Romans 10:9 NLT
If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.



Ephesians 2:8 NLT
God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God.

 

[RoadDebris]

Somtimes essential? Did I make that argument?

Yes you did, and you continue to do so:

It is indeed absolutely essential for EVERYONE who has been taught the Gospel.

So, in the Catholic view, baptism is sometimes necessary. When? When people have been acquainted with RCC doctrine. This is, in fact, what you are preaching here, and at the same time denying that you are doing any such thing (i.e. preaching unessential essentials). That's the thing with Roman Catholicism: lies are bound so tightly to it that one can not stay withing it's bounds without accepting absurdity (e.g. contradicting the Law of Contradiction).

More babble.

In your world the Law of Contradiction is mere "bable." Yes, I get that. However, rational people understand that it's an inviolable property of all existence.

You are plain obstinate to opening your eyes to statements that I even underlined. Can you actually address my point, rather than more name-calling? Or is that as good as it gets from your end???

Straw man. I'm calling your ideology absurd, not you personally. Keep it real, if you are able.

You clearly are clueless on the utilization of a dictionary, aren't you...

Very well. I like to think of myself as being open minded (i.e. willing to accept the truth and deny it's opposite). If my use of the dictionary is really that lacking then prove it. Post an objective definition from a dictionary that defines the word necessary as meaning "sometimes essential" as you are claiming it means within Catholicism.

...waiting

 

[RoadDebris]

Francis clearly explained that there are NUANCES when elaborating on complex doctrinal themes...

When someone's "nuances" contradict themselves the reasonably prudent start to smell snake oil.

Pee-yew!

 

[dadof10]

When someone's "nuances" contradict themselves the reasonably prudent start to smell snake oil.

Pee-yew!

Do you smell snake oil when RC Sproul talks about salvation by grace through faith ALONE? This concept is specifically rejected by Scripture, unless you have a nuanced way of interpreting James.

I notice you didn't answer my direct question. I'll post it again.

If we are saved by faith alone does that mean that anyone who dies before the age of reason is burning in Hell? Waiting....

Sent using my cellular telephone device via the interweb.

 

[Drew]

Do you smell snake oil when RC Sproul talks about salvation by grace through faith ALONE? This concept is specifically rejected by Scripture, unless you have a nuanced way of interpreting James.

The "works are not connected to salvation" position is also challenged by Paul in Romans. I have never seen anyone successfully argue that Paul does not mean precisely what he writes here in Romans 2:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

 

[Hitch]

Do you smell snake oil when RC Sproul talks about salvation by grace through faith ALONE? This concept is specifically rejected by Scripture, unless you have a nuanced way of interpreting James.

I notice you didn't answer my direct question. I'll post it again.

If we are saved by faith alone does that mean that anyone who dies before the age of reason is burning in Hell? Waiting....

Sent using my cellular telephone device via the interweb.

I wonder whether you are able to recall specifically which of your good works saved you?


What exactly did you do while you were dead in sin to gain for yourself eternal life? It is reasonable to expect such an important action would be remembered.

What ever it was do you think the same action would saved any body or are there different actions for every man?

 

[Alabaster]

Do you smell snake oil when RC Sproul talks about salvation by grace through faith ALONE? This concept is specifically rejected by Scripture, unless you have a nuanced way of interpreting James.

I notice you didn't answer my direct question. I'll post it again.

If we are saved by faith alone does that mean that anyone who dies before the age of reason is burning in Hell? Waiting....

I smell nasty when the RCC tries to preach the false gospel of works. I suppose you will now say that penance is necessary for salvation, too.

 

[Drew]

I smell nasty when the RCC tries to preach the false gospel of works. I suppose you will now say that penance is necessary for salvation, too.

What do you think Paul meant by this statement from Romans 2:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

 

[Alabaster]

What do you think Paul meant by this statement from Romans 2:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

It means GOD will repay. We don't have to.

 

[francisdesales]

I smell nasty when the RCC tries to preach the false gospel of works. I suppose you will now say that penance is necessary for salvation, too.

You are being sarcastic, right?

By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths. For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt. And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts. Rev 9:18-21

But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Mat 9:13/cf. Luke 6:12

The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. Mat 12:41

You won't be saved if you don't repent.

BTW, the Catholic Church doesn't teach any sort of "salvation by works" doctrine. Plainly, you misunderstand the Catechism, which details our beliefs. If you doubt me, go to the Catechism yourself.

Regards

 

[Alabaster]

You are being sarcastic, right?

By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths. For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt. And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts. Rev 9:18-21

But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Mat 9:13/cf. Luke 6:12

The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. Mat 12:41

You won't be saved if you don't repent.

BTW, the Catholic Church doesn't teach any sort of "salvation by works" doctrine. Plainly, you misunderstand the Catechism, which details our beliefs. If you doubt me, go to the Catechism yourself.

Regards

I take it then that you equate repentance with penance.

These are two separate things.

Perhaps you need to study them. Most definitely the RCC puts out that penance is necessary...which is a work, and goes against God and His ways.


The RC system of penance is an unbiblical, works-based system that keeps the Catholic in submission to the sacramental legislation of the mother Church. Instead of the RCC pointing to Christ alone for the forgiveness of sins and reconciliation with God, it teaches that a person must perform works to make himself right with God. Scripture clearly teaches us that our position and righteousness with God is not based upon anything that we do. To the contrary, to the exclusion of our works the Scriptures clearly teach that we are justified before God by faith. In other words, it is by faith alone in Christ alone in his work alone that makes us right with God. There is no way that anyone is able to remove his sin through any of his sin-stained efforts.

The RCC, because it adds works to the finished work of Christ in order to be made right with God, thus preaches a false gospel.


Galatians 1:8-9 NLT

Let God’s curse fall on anyone, including us or even an angel from heaven, who preaches a different kind of Good News than the one we preached to you. I say again what we have said before: If anyone preaches any other Good News than the one you welcomed, let that person be cursed.

​

 

[jasoncran]

joe, if i might, i will chime since i understand your position more then some posting.

first off the protestant chruch if they taught solo fide correctly would find that its more in common with what you say. one must have faith with works in order to have true FAITH.if one doesnt have any sign of a changed heart(note: not perfection but an overall desire to not sin,and to please God by reading his word and winning souls and recieving sacraments) then he or she cant be one of HIS!

the problem for some that aren't calvinists and except the eternal security doctrine they are in a contridiction of theology.as if one doenst want to serve God and loves sex more then God and wont go to church and also wont obey God somehow God will take them anyway to heaven. these persons erroseousnly say that God wont leave you nor forsake you. true but you can tell him no! they will say the he wont let you go to hell since you repented sincerly at one time or you werent saved in the first place.the question is freewill is then denied one cant turn from God as he wont let you and will take you to heaven despite your desire to die.

its not the lutherans of today to my knowledge that espouse this position nor the arminists(of which i am and i think westexas as well).both handy and mike are lutherans and neither of them espouse eternal security.

 

[jasoncran]

I take it then that you equate repentance with penance.

These are two separate things.

Perhaps you need to study them. Most definitely the RCC puts out that penance is necessary...which is a work, and goes against God and His ways.


The RC system of penance is an unbiblical, works-based system that keeps the Catholic in submission to the sacramental legislation of the mother Church. Instead of the RCC pointing to Christ alone for the forgiveness of sins and reconciliation with God, it teaches that a person must perform works to make himself right with God. Scripture clearly teaches us that our position and righteousness with God is not based upon anything that we do. To the contrary, to the exclusion of our works the Scriptures clearly teach that we are justified before God by faith. In other words, it is by faith alone in Christ alone in his work alone that makes us right with God. There is no way that anyone is able to remove his sin through any of his sin-stained efforts.

The RCC, because it adds works to the finished work of Christ in order to be made right with God, thus preaches a false gospel.


Galatians 1:8-9 NLT

Let God’s curse fall on anyone, including us or even an angel from heaven, who preaches a different kind of Good News than the one we preached to you. I say again what we have said before: If anyone preaches any other Good News than the one you welcomed, let that person be cursed.

​

define solo fide and what james with paul meant in a balence as they dont contradict at all.look i have issues with the rcc on their confessional system but if one is honest they state what the bible does say. FAITH MUST HAVE WORKS AS ITS NOT FAITH.DO YOU REALLY SAY IN YOUR CHURCH THAT ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS REPENT AND GO BACK TO SIN?is there not some teaching of what is required of you?

 

[Alabaster]

define solo fide and what james with paul meant in a balence as they dont contradict at all.look i have issues with the rcc on their confessional system but if one is honest they state what the bible does say. FAITH MUST HAVE WORKS AS ITS NOT FAITH.DO YOU REALLY SAY IN YOUR CHURCH THAT ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS REPENT AND GO BACK TO SIN?is there not some teaching of what is required of you?

We repent and turn our backs on sin. We don't do penance. Do you?

 

[jasoncran]

We repent and turn our backs on sin. We don't do penance. Do you?

thats joe position!one must keep in christ ,and not decide i love sin more then the God. do you believe in free will? and penance isnt really something that i fully am educated on and also that is if it is what i think it is something like. i hurt my wife. i apologise and i try to make it up by.not repeating the same mistake and also most women work like this, they do hold it agianst you and want some period of making it up. God does have a law in the natural. we do get forgiven but if i steal i will pay for the crime. if i steal from you and its $$$ are you going to just say ok, i will forget and not expect some money from me? yes God knows we cant pay him but what is wrong if possible for us to make amends for our sins.if i anger you and should i not tell you after i repent before God that i'm sorry.and if i steal and i should return the item to its owner.is that not a form of penance?

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Sacrament of Penance

and while i will await for joe's response on what the rcc says on these. not all of that is off. is it bad to go to a minister or brethren and say i have sinned here and i need to repent. and pray?

btw i have had to do penance and pay the u.s.govt money i stole from them and also others. to include parents and that was a relief. i do think that at time if some steals they should upon repentance ask to repay the debt and if freed by the debtee so be it.