Baptism being necessary for salvation...

[Alabaster]

The very first sentence in your link, jason, should tip you off:

Penance is a sacrament of the New Law instituted by Christ in which forgiveness of sins committed after baptism is granted through the priest's absolution to those who with true sorrow confess their sins and promise to satisfy for the same.

Absolution by man and...works.

 

[Scandinavian27]

We're saved by faith AND works. Not one or the other.

 

[jasoncran]

The very first sentence in your link, jason, should tip you off:



Absolution by man and...works.

quote mine much? did you read the whole thing?do you not believe this?

13Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.

14Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. 16Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much

note who is asking for prayer. the sick and who is praying for that man?in that context that man or rather elder is praying for that person.yes the person has to confess it to the man but it clearly says that the person who is praying over him is the one that has the prayer of faith in context!

i dont believe in confessional but to say that any protestant shouldnt have some type of accountablity too and also have a pastor or elder counsel you on sin and also be able to ask God on your behalf is also bad idea.

the idea is real close to what we have.the problem here is that we seem to be agaisnt intercession. i have asked God to save men from death.

i know he told me this. because you have asked me to spare these men from death none shall die. and i watched them head down a rapid river soo fast that i cried out to God, they all lived and one of them said its a miracle that i lived. so you dont believe that we dont have the power by God to bind and loose things.that is what absolution is to a degree is.

 

[Alabaster]

quote mine much? did you read the whole thing?do you not believe this?

13Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.

14Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. 16Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much

note who is asking for prayer. the sick and who is praying for that man?in that context that man or rather elder is praying for that person.yes the person has to confess it to the man but it clearly says that the person who is praying over him is the one that has the prayer of faith in context!

i dont believe in confessional but to say that any protestant shouldnt have some type of accountablity too and also have a pastor or elder counsel you on sin and also be able to ask God on your behalf is also bad idea.

the idea is real close to what we have.the problem here is that we seem to be agaisnt intercession. i have asked God to save men from death.

i know he told me this. because you have asked me to spare these men from death none shall die. and i watched them head down a rapid river soo fast that i cried out to God, they all lived and one of them said its a miracle that i lived. so you dont believe that we dont have the power by God to bind and loose things.that is what absolution is to a degree is.

This has NOTHING to do with accountability within the family of God, nor has it to do with intercession.

The little aside in this topic is PENANCE, which is unbiblical, and just as superfluous to our walk with God as the confessional, infant baptism, and praying to saints.

 

[Alabaster]

We're saved by faith AND works. Not one or the other.

Works do not save us. They are the supernatural outflow of a renewed life due to salvation. They are an unmistakeable mark of a life lived for Jesus Christ.


Matthew 7:16-18 NLT
You can identify them by their fruit, that is, by the way they act. Can you pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? A good tree produces good fruit, and a bad tree produces bad fruit.A good tree can’t produce bad fruit, and a bad tree can’t produce good fruit.

 

[jasoncran]

This has NOTHING to do with accountability within the family of God, nor has it to do with intercession.

The little aside in this topic is PENANCE, which is unbiblical, and just as superfluous to our walk with God as the confessional, infant baptism, and praying to saints.

really? penance is exaclty what that is!. An act of self-mortification or devotion performed voluntarily to show sorrow for a sin or other wrongdoing.
2. A sacrament in some Christian churches that includes contrition, confession to a priest, acceptance of punishment, and absolution. Also called reconciliation.
tr.v. pen·anced, pen·anc·ing, pen·anc·es To impose penance upon.

its very close to that i correct myself. we just do it if it all to the offended party. you might be suprised that an old pentacostal pastor did that.she lied to a person and the HOLY spirit lead her to call that person back and apologize. isnt that a penitant act?

 

[Alabaster]

According to The New Saint Joseph Baltimore Catechism, Vol. 1, 1969, p. 141, "Penance is a sacrament by which sins committed after baptism are forgiven." It goes on to state in question 171 that in order to receive the sacrament of penance worthily the Roman Catholic must, first, examine his conscience; second, be sorry for his sins; third, make up his mind not to sin again; fourth, confess his sins to the priest; and fifth, be willing to do the penance the priest gives them to do. Thus, we see that this so-called sacrament is a works based means of gaining forgiveness of sins from God. This is in contradiction to scripture. A right relationship with God is achieved through faith in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and not by our works, or combination of our works and God's grace, because our works are nothing more than filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6).

• "being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus," (Rom. 3:24).
• "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness," (Rom. 4:3).
• "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness," (Rom. 4:5).
• "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ," (Rom. 5:1).
• "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him," (Rom. 5:9).
• "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace," (Rom. 11:6).
• "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God," (Eph. 2:8).

As you can see, the Bible teaches us that we are made right with God by faith apart from works. Notice how the Bible contrasts faith and works when it comes to being made right with God. The Bible rejects works of any kind as a means of being made right with God. You'd think that this would be clear to the Roman Catholic Church. But, it isn't. The New Saint Joseph Baltimore Catechism, Vol. 2, 1969, p. 199 says,

"The priest gives us a penance after confession that we may make some atonement to God for our sins, receive help to avoid them in the future, and make some satisfaction for the temporal punishment due to them."​

What is amazing in this quote is that it is not Christ's sacrifice on the cross that is the focus of atonement for our sins, but the works of the individual via penance. This is in blatant contradiction to scripture which says that we are cleansed of our sins by the blood of Christ, not by our works.

• "how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?" (Heb. 9:14).
• "but if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin," (1 John 1:7).

The Scriptures teach us that Christ's blood cleanses us of ALL sin, not some, not part, but all. This includes our sins of the past, present, and future and it is not necessary to have our sins forgiven via our own effort.

• "I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly," (Gal. 2:21).
• "Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. 22 But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe," (Gal. 3:21-22).
• "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace," (Rom. 11:6).

The Roman Catholic Teaching is wrong because it is contrary to scripture because it uses penance - works that a person does - as a means to become right with God.




Penance | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

 

[Sam21]

I think we are all saved in the way the thief on the cross was,he reached a point where he believed that Jesus was who He said He was and THEN by an act of his will he reached out to Christ personally and asked for salvation from the Person of Christ Himself...now that is how a person is saved!!! It is our faith demonstrated by an act of reaching out to Christ for salvation.

 

[jasoncran]

ok alabaster just to clarify.so if one says a simple prayer, cries tears, falls out in church and never goes to church ever again is that person really a christian?

and i have seen that happen.

i will let joe answer what penance is ,i could state that question to which alabaster never said.

and why did jesus say this?. if thou has a gift to give to the alter and thou brother angry leave thine gift at the alter and go and make it right.

hmm sound close.make it right.agian i am not saying the way the catholic confessional is right but that aint that far off. we should make amends to those that we have wronged.its evidence that we did repent!!!

 

[Alabaster]

ok alabaster just to clarify.so if one says a simple prayer, cries tears, falls out in church and never goes to church ever again is that person really a christian?

and i have seen that happen.

Why am I called upon to judge this?

i will let joe answer what penance is ,i could state that question to which alabaster never said.

and why did jesus say this?. if thou has a gift to give to the alter and thou brother angry leave thine gift at the alter and go and make it right.

hmm sound close.make it right.agian i am not saying the way the catholic confessional is right but that aint that far off. we should make amends to those that we have wronged.its evidence that we did repent!!!

Making it right between oneself and a brother if one has offended is not penance.

I suggest you read what their doctrine of penance says.

 

[warhorse]

We're saved by faith AND works. Not one or the other.

No!!! your saved by grace through faith and that not of yourselves lest any man should boost it is the gift of God.

 

[jasoncran]

Making it right between oneself and a brother if one has offended is not penance.

I suggest you read what their doctrine of penance says.

i did and i got if from thier source not someone saying this is what they say. what if your pastor said that too you and you told him well i stole from work and i dont care that i did and he said women you are in sin and you do repent and he said go and make it right.is that not nearly the same?
and this verse.
'Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them, and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.'

what does that mean to you? do you see anywhere of something that says we can bind the devil with that? how do we have that power to retain sin? and let it go.and I'm not saying we should do it that way just we shouldnt go the otherway and not have someone to go to and confess sins to.many churches dont to that. at least not imho. if they did encourage that perhaps the sad shape of the western churches might not be.

 

[dadof10]

Not being baptized FOR WHATEVER REASON doesn't NULLIFY salvation.

How do you explain all the verses that tell us to repent and be baptized? "Baptism, which now saves you"? Jesus telling the disciples to "Go....baptize..."?

No, accepting Jesus is not a work. It is a false Gospel to attach baptism to the FREE GIFT of salvation, however. There is nothing we can do to be saved apart from the faith we exercise to believe.

So you must "exercise faith" in order to be saved? And this isn't "works salvation"? You must DO SOMETHING in order to be saved, isn't that your definition of "works salvation"?

Contrast this to the Catholic system, which is salvation by Grace alone. The normal, ordinary means of salvation, as taught by the Catholic Church, is water baptism for infants. The baby (usually under three weeks old) does NOTHING to merit the salvific Graces of Christ. He doesn't HAVE TO make it to a certain age. He doesn't have to understand anything, accept anything, DO ANYTHING. He is justified by Grace alone. It's the exact opposite of your system of works salvation.

Glad to see you know how to answer the challenge to post chapter and verse, I was starting to worry since you keep ignoring this challenge. Now, if you could please post the verses that call baptism "merely symbolic", or admit that you believe a non-Biblical notion, thanks.

 

[dadof10]

I wonder whether you are able to recall specifically which of your good works saved you?


What exactly did you do while you were dead in sin to gain for yourself eternal life? It is reasonable to expect such an important action would be remembered.

What ever it was do you think the same action would saved any body or are there different actions for every man?

I don't recall because what initially saves is baptism and I was too young to remember. Read my last post to Alabaster. Its Grace that saves.


Sent using my cellular telephone device via the interweb.

 

[dadof10]

The "works are not connected to salvation" position is also challenged by Paul in Romans. I have never seen anyone successfully argue that Paul does not mean precisely what he writes here in Romans 2:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

I was hoping you'd show up here. I value your input, especially on this subject. I have read most, if not all, of your posts on faith/works and I have yet to see a decent argument to Romans 2. That's because Paul doesn't teach salvation by faith alone, he teaches salvation by faith not works of the law. We are saved by good deeds done in faith, not obligatory works.

Sent using my cellular telephone device via the interweb.

 

[dadof10]

I think we are all saved in the way the thief on the cross was,he reached a point where he believed that Jesus was who He said He was and THEN by an act of his will he reached out to Christ personally and asked for salvation from the Person of Christ Himself...now that is how a person is saved!!! It is our faith demonstrated by an act of reaching out to Christ for salvation.

That's how a person hours from sure death fastened to a cross is saved. If that is your situation, then you will be saved by your deathbed conversion. I'm going to guess your situation is closer to the rich, young man. What did Christ tell him he must do to inherit Eternal Life?

Sent using my cellular telephone device via the interweb.

 

[Alabaster]

That's how a person hours from sure death fastened to a cross is saved. If that is your situation, then you will be saved by your deathbed conversion. I'm going to guess your situation is closer to the rich, young man. What did Christ tell him he must do to inherit Eternal Life?

Jesus was only asking the young man to FOLLOW HIM. He knew the man's heart and what was his life's focus. Jesus doesn't require us to sell our possessions or ANY OTHER DEED for salvation.

Matthew 19: 21-22 NLT
Jesus told him, “If you want to be perfect, go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.†But when the young man heard this, he went away sad, for he had many possessions.

 

[Alabaster]

i did and i got if from thier source not someone saying this is what they say. what if your pastor said that too you and you told him well i stole from work and i dont care that i did and he said women you are in sin and you do repent and he said go and make it right.is that not nearly the same?

No it isn't.

and this verse.
'Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them, and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.'

what does that mean to you? do you see anywhere of something that says we can bind the devil with that? how do we have that power to retain sin? and let it go.and I'm not saying we should do it that way just we shouldnt go the otherway and not have someone to go to and confess sins to.many churches dont to that. at least not imho. if they did encourage that perhaps the sad shape of the western churches might not be.

We have the power to retain sin by not forgiving.

Please read what the RCC says about penance.

 

[Alabaster]

How do you explain all the verses that tell us to repent and be baptized? "Baptism, which now saves you"? Jesus telling the disciples to "Go....baptize..."?

We don't baptize sinners, do we? Baptism is for the ALREADY saved.

So you must "exercise faith" in order to be saved? And this isn't "works salvation"? You must DO SOMETHING in order to be saved, isn't that your definition of "works salvation"?

The faith to believe is from the Holy Spirit. It is not a work.

Contrast this to the Catholic system, which is salvation by Grace alone.

Since when?

The normal, ordinary means of salvation, as taught by the Catholic Church, is water baptism for infants. The baby (usually under three weeks old) does NOTHING to merit the salvific Graces of Christ. He doesn't HAVE TO make it to a certain age. He doesn't have to understand anything, accept anything, DO ANYTHING. He is justified by Grace alone. It's the exact opposite of your system of works salvation.

That is an add-on doctrine that is completely UNBIBLICAL, and has NO MERIT whatsoever.

Your doctrine of baby baptism is also a work, foisted upon unsuspecting babies to assuage fear.

Glad to see you know how to answer the challenge to post chapter and verse, I was starting to worry since you keep ignoring this challenge. Now, if you could please post the verses that call baptism "merely symbolic", or admit that you believe a non-Biblical notion, thanks.

Your amusing charge is rather hypocritical, since Catholic traditions are not founded upon Holy Writ.


[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Baptism is a symbolic act that says, "I turn away from my sins. I die to myself and to my sins. I am now a follower of Jesus." And when a person starts trusting Jesus and Jesus only to forgive them of their sins, they are forgiven. When we do this we die to ourselves, and turn our life over to Christ and our FIRST ACT OF OBEDIENCE needs to be baptism. Baptism is an outward symbol of an inward change that has already occurred - salvation.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Baptism is only a symbol of being a follower of Jesus. Baptism is not required for salvation! It is commanded by our Lord and our first act of obedience as Christians should be baptism. The thief on the cross who was hanging next to Jesus was never baptized. Baptism is not essential for salvation.[/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]
[/FONT]

 

[Alabaster]

I don't recall because what initially saves is baptism and I was too young to remember. Read my last post to Alabaster. Its Grace that saves.

People are conscious of their salvation experience. No one can be saved by conferring it upon a baby who can't even repent. Repentance is necessary in order to come to salvation.

Baptizing babies does nothing in the spiritual realm---but it does get them wet and sometimes cranky.