Body, Soul, and Spirit

[Edward]

I have a question, If man changes in the fall and lost the ability to reason properly why didn't Satan and the demons also lose it since they are spiritual beings?

Satan and the demons are created angelic beings. We were created very differently than they. I can't positively give you an answer to what you ask because there is much that we (I) do not know about the nature of Angelic and spiritual beings. In our present state we are a life form lower than the Angels and God with His plan put certain restrictions upon us that Angelic beings do not seem to have.

They're a lot different than us. My assertion was that we began to think differently than we used to, being flesh now, and apparently a whole lot more than we are now before the fall.

 

[Butch5]

Forgive me brother, but I just read the entire chapter again to find this...and am unable to find where it says that He did that after the resurrection. Could you point it out to me?

It's not quite as clear in the English as it is in the Greek text.

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us1 to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited1 in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
(1Pe 3:18-20 NKJ)

If we look at the order of events it says, first He suffered, then was put to death, than made alive by the Spirit, and by the Spirit went and preached (made a proclamation) to the spirits in prison. The Greek text requires this order. Also, I don't believe that the "spirits" He preached to were people. Peter ends that passage by saying,

22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him. (1Pe 3:22 NKJ)

I believe He preached or proclaimed to the disobedient spirits that they were now subject to Him. Peter said that Jesus preached to spirits in prison, I believe he was referring to those who Jude speaks of.

6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; (Jud 1:6 NKJ)

This passage seems to be speaking of spirits in prison.

 

[Edward]

To me it's very simple that eating from the ToL sustained Adam and Eve because it was the denial of access to this tree that caused them to die.

The ToL in the New world is said to be for "healing" whatever that may imply.

But the scripture says that if we eat from the ToK that we would surely die.

Do you mean Revelation 22:2? I just read that and it is a little ambiguous. It says the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. Maybe it's a one time deal? I don't know, it is not extremely specific!

 

[Butch5]

Satan and the demons are created angelic beings. We were created very differently than they. I can't positively give you an answer to what you ask because there is much that we (I) do not know about the nature of Angelic and spiritual beings. In our present state we are a life form lower than the Angels and God with His plan put certain restrictions upon us that Angelic beings do not seem to have.

They're a lot different than us. My assertion was that we began to think differently than we used to, being flesh now, and apparently a whole lot more than we are now before the fall.

Hi Edward,

I got the impression you believed we were on the same level as angels before the fall, that is why I asked the question. If we were both on the same level then it seems what happened to man should also have happened to the Satan and the demons. That is if both were spiritual beings. Scripture says that God created man a little lower than the angels.

 

[Butch5]

I don't agree with butch on this one but can you point out where it says Jesus did this while in the grave ?

HI Agua,

On what point are we in disagreement?

 

[agua.]

But the scripture says that if we eat from the ToK that we would surely die.

Do you mean Revelation 22:2? I just read that and it is a little ambiguous. It says the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. Maybe it's a one time deal? I don't know, it is not extremely specific!

Read #244 and #246 again. We surely do die because Adam ate from the ToK.

Do you believe Adam was immortal before he sinned ?

 

[agua.]

HI Agua,

On what point are we in disagreement?

Butch I believe the preaching took place in Noah's day ( Noah preached by the Spirit of Jesus ) and you believe the preaching was by Jesus after the resurrection.

 

[Butch5]

Butch I believe the preaching took place in Noah's day ( Noah preached by the Spirit of Jesus ) and you believe the preaching was by Jesus after the resurrection.

Oh, ok

 

[Edward]

Show me where it says Jesus did this while in the grave ?

There's three scriptures. None of them are very clear about where Jesus was for the three days between His crucifixion and resurrection. I haven't really studied this very closely but i will post them. I do feel that this is a side issue and that the more important core issue is that He dies for our sins, and was resurrected, that we may have life. I've always felt that He did go somewhere and perhaps (probably) collected the souls of the righteous dead.

One scripture is:
Ephesians 4:8-10

8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)/

Acts 2:29-31
29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption/

1 Peter 3:18-19
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring use]" style="font-size: 0.65em; font-weight: bold; vertical-align: top;"> to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,/

The Acts passage speaks of being dead and buried, and that Jesus's soul was not left in hades. SO he was there for a few, right? In Ephesians it speaks about Him descending into the lower parts of the earth. This seems like it has to be talking about the same event, to me. And the 1 Peter passage sounds like it hints at what He did while He was there.

Like I said, I haven't really delved real deep into this, but I've heard it discussed here and there and a lot of scholars seem to hold that He went to Hades/hell/Sheol and did some preaching and collected the souls of those left in (Abrahams Bosom). It sounded reasonable enough to me and I went on to try an learn more important things, like relationship.

 

[Edward]

Hi Edward,

I got the impression you believed we were on the same level as angels before the fall, that is why I asked the question. If we were both on the same level then it seems what happened to man should also have happened to the Satan and the demons. That is if both were spiritual beings. Scripture says that God created man a little lower than the angels.

Oh, I see. Yeah, no way are we on the same level. But that wouldn't mean that we were not a lot more and lost more than we realize in the fall.

 

[Butch5]

Oh, I see. Yeah, no way are we on the same level. But that wouldn't mean that we were not a lot more and lost more than we realize in the fall.

What changed with the fall?

 

[agua.]

Oh, I see. Yeah, no way are we on the same level. But that wouldn't mean that we were not a lot more and lost more than we realize in the fall.

What changed with the fall?

Do you believe Adam was immortal before he sinned ?

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

Satan and the demons are created angelic beings. We were created very differently than they. I can't positively give you an answer to what you ask because there is much that we (I) do not know about the nature of Angelic and spiritual beings. In our present state we are a life form lower than the Angels and God with His plan put certain restrictions upon us that Angelic beings do not seem to have.
They're a lot different than us. My assertion was that we began to think differently than we used to, being flesh now, and apparently a whole lot more than we are now before the fall.

no worries brother ---- satan and the demons did lose their ability to reason clearly. (man is so obtuse!)
they can no more connect two dots twice in a row ..... well, that's for elsewhere ! they lie all the time, they cannot stop from trying to deceive , they cannot tell what the outcome of their activities will be (they tell their victims/ subjects/ puppets they know, but look what happened ever since the very first ones !!! )

so don't worry ever about the demonic forces or hasatan himself --- they are defeated completely, they were defeated at the crucifixion utterly; all of their power was stripped away. and they can do nothing except Yhwh permits it.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

Agreed, and He said, a spirit doesn't have flesh and bone as you see I have. If a spirit doesn't have flesh and bone and Jesus had flesh and bone how can He be a spirit?

Good question. I'll let you think about it until tomorrow. The answer is so simple, you'll either be astonished or deny it.

I didn't see if this got answered or not- but like I said it is simple spiritually and Scripturally.

Yhwh is spirit. Jesus is spirit. Yhwh created a body for Jesus to dwell in (looks like for eternity now). a body has flesh and bone in heaven. simple.

 

[Butch5]

I didn't see if this got answered or not- but like I said it is simple spiritually and Scripturally.

Yhwh is spirit. Jesus is spirit. Yhwh created a body for Jesus to dwell in (looks like for eternity now). a body has flesh and bone in heaven. simple.

But that's not what John said, he said the Word "became" flesh, not dwells in flesh. Jesus said a spirit does not have flesh and bone.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

But that's not what John said, he said the Word "became" flesh, not dwells in flesh. Jesus said a spirit does not have flesh and bone.

I understand it is a confusion because of the lack of proper translation . I can't help that. I told you the truth, but don't know enough Hebrew to translate for you so you can understand directly from the Hebrew. (or even from greek, if it's there) Until you learn what is meant from Hebrew sources, or from God Himself, you can't help that either.

It may even be english that you're having trouble with , I just noticed. John saying the Word became flesh doesn't mean in english what you say it means. English is so obtuse and wide open in some ways in its phrases. Just like the never-ending-saga of when does forever end ---- in Hebrew it is clear. but in english no one understands.

 

[agua.]

But that's not what John said, he said the Word "became" flesh, not dwells in flesh. Jesus said a spirit does not have flesh and bone.

It's interesting Butch when we think of Jesus leaving his heavenly place and becoming a man.

Php 2:5-8 KJV Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: (6) Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: (7) But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: (8) And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.


Heb 2:6-9 KJV But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? (7) Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: (8) Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. (9) But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Did Jesus come as a man to reclaim our birthright ?

 

[Butch5]

I understand it is a confusion because of the lack of proper translation . I can't help that. I told you the truth, but don't know enough Hebrew to translate for you so you can understand directly from the Hebrew. (or even from greek, if it's there) Until you learn what is meant from Hebrew sources, or from God Himself, you can't help that either.

It may even be english that you're having trouble with , I just noticed. John saying the Word became flesh doesn't mean in english what you say it means. English is so obtuse and wide open in some ways in its phrases. Just like the never-ending-saga of when does forever end ---- in Hebrew it is clear. but in english no one understands.

John wrote in Greek, he used the word "ginomai" which means to become or come into existence.

 

[Butch5]

It's interesting Butch when we think of Jesus leaving his heavenly place and becoming a man.

Php 2:5-8 KJV Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: (6) Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: (7) But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: (8) And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.


Heb 2:6-9 KJV But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? (7) Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: (8) Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. (9) But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Did Jesus come as a man to reclaim our birthright ?

I used to believe in Hypostatic Union (fully God/fully man) but now I see that the Scriptures don't teach that. The Philippians 2 passage is key, It actually says being in the form of God He emptied himself and was made in the likeness of man.

5 For, let this mind be in you that is also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal to God,
7 but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made,
8 and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death -- death even of a cross, (Phi 2:5-8 YLT)

The word translated likeness means to be made like something else and the word fashion is "skema". I believe this is where we get the word Schematic. John said the Word became flesh. When you say birthright are you referring to man's purpose to rule the creation? If so, I would say yes that is one reason He came, that man could rule over the creation.

 

[agua.]

I used to believe in Hypostatic Union (fully God/fully man) but now I see that the Scriptures don't teach that. The Philippians 2 passage is key, It actually says being in the form of God He emptied himself and was made in the likeness of man.

5 For, let this mind be in you that is also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal to God,
7 but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made,
8 and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death -- death even of a cross, (Phi 2:5-8 YLT)

The word translated likeness means to be made like something else and the word fashion is "skema". I believe this is where we get the word Schematic. John said the Word became flesh. When you say birthright are you referring to man's purpose to rule the creation? If so, I would say yes that is one reason He came, that man could rule over the creation.

I see what you mean Butch and I'm currently reprocessing this myself. Thanks for the tip about "skema" that's very interesting.

I asked about our birthright because Hebrews 2 seems to touch on this. I noticed it because it says God put His creation under us ( subject to us ) but atm everything isn't subjected to us ; but we see Jesus who everything has been subjected to , even death.

It makes me think our birthright was also not to die. So Jesus is our fore bearer reclaiming our birthright which was to rule over the Earth forever. What do you think ?