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Body, Soul, and Spirit

agua. said:
I see what you mean Butch and I'm currently reprocessing this myself. Thanks for the tip about "skema" that's very interesting.

I asked about our birthright because Hebrews 2 seems to touch on this. I noticed it because it says God put His creation under us ( subject to us ) but atm everything isn't subjected to us ; but we see Jesus who everything has been subjected to , even death.

It makes me think our birthright was also not to die. So Jesus is our fore bearer reclaiming our birthright which was to rule over the Earth forever. What do you think ?
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I agree, God intended for man to rule over the creation, He gave him dominion over it. Paul quotes David,

4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet: (Psa 8:4-6 KJV)

And David quotes Genesis,

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. (Gen 1:27-28 KJV)

Then Paul says,

8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (Heb 2:8-9 KJV)

He says we don't yet see all things pout under him, but we see Jesus who was made a little lower than the angels. What does that mean? He had just said,

6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: (Heb 2:6-7 KJV)

He's saying that Jesus is man, He became man for the suffering of death.
 
Butch5 said:
I agree, God intended for man to rule over the creation, He gave him dominion over it. Paul quotes David,

4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet: (Psa 8:4-6 KJV)

And David quotes Genesis,

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. (Gen 1:27-28 KJV)

Then Paul says,

8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (Heb 2:8-9 KJV)

He says we don't yet see all things pout under him, but we see Jesus who was made a little lower than the angels. What does that mean? He had just said,

6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: (Heb 2:6-7 KJV)

He's saying that Jesus is man, He became man for the suffering of death.
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Yes I agree.

Heb 2:14-16 KJV Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; (15) And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. (16) For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

It's an interesting concept this dying to defeat satan and death isn't it.
 
agua. said:
....

It's an interesting concept this dying to defeat satan and death isn't it.
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not just concepts, but reality, as revealed by Yhwh the Creator as He Wills or Allows. >>
there's much more to realize; yet simply so; (not nearly recognized here(on this forum) yet)
from flesh to spirit, Yhwh's Word gives the truth, and fully so. don't leave off some for some other >>>

from biblegateway: 1 Corinthians 15 AMP

34 Awake [from your drunken stupor and return] to sober sense and your right minds, and sin no more. For some of you have not the knowledge of God [you are utterly and willfully and disgracefully ignorant, and continue to be so, lacking the sense of God’s presence and all true knowledge of Him]. I say this to your shame.

35 But someone will say, How can the dead be raised? With what [kind of] body will they come forth?

36 You foolish man! Every time you plant seed, you sow something that does not come to life [germinating, springing up, and growing] unless it dies first.

37 Nor is the seed you sow then the body which it is going to have [later], but it is a naked kernel, perhaps of wheat or some of the rest of the grains.

38 But God gives to it the body that He plans and sees fit, and to each kind of seed a body of its own.

39 For all flesh is not the same, but there is one kind for humans, another for beasts, another for birds, and another for fish.

40 There are heavenly bodies (sun, moon, and stars) and there are earthly bodies (men, animals, and plants), but the beauty and glory of the heavenly bodies is of one kind, while the beauty and glory of earthly bodies is a different kind.

41 The sun is glorious in one way, the moon is glorious in another way, and the stars are glorious in their own [distinctive] way; for one star differs from and surpasses another in its beauty and brilliance.

42 So it is with the resurrection of the dead. [The body] that is sown is perishable and decays, but [the body] that is resurrected is imperishable (immune to decay, immortal).

43 It is sown in dishonor and humiliation; it is raised in honor and glory. It is sown in infirmity and weakness; it is resurrected in strength and endued with power.

44 It is sown a natural (physical) body; it is raised a supernatural (a spiritual) body. [As surely as] there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body.
45 Thus it is written, The first man Adam became a living being (an individual personality); the last Adam (Christ) became a life-giving Spirit [restoring the dead to life].
 
agua. said:
Yes I agree.

Heb 2:14-16 KJV Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; (15) And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. (16) For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

It's an interesting concept this dying to defeat satan and death isn't it.
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Hi Agua,

Are you familiar with the Ransom theory of the Atonement? This concept is central to the Ransom theory.
 
Butch5 said:
Hi Agua,

Are you familiar with the Ransom theory of the Atonement? This concept is central to the Ransom theory.
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Yeah Butch I'm familiar with it maybe by the term propitiatory sacrifice but I think it means the same thing. There's some controversy over who the price was paid to though I think ?
 
agua. said:
Yeah Butch I'm familiar with it maybe by the term propitiatory sacrifice but I think it means the same thing. There's some controversy over who the price was paid to though I think ?
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Hi Agua,

The Ransom theory doesn't have a payment to God, in it Jesus ransoms mankind from the Devil and all that is involved.
 
Butch5 said:
Hi Agua,

The Ransom theory doesn't have a payment to God, in it Jesus ransoms mankind from the Devil and all that is involved.
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What scriptures are used to support this Butch ? Err maybe pm me might be better mate this is a doozy :D
 
agua. said:
What scriptures are used to support this Butch ? Err maybe pm me might be better mate this is a doozy :biggrin
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LOL, I think I've discussed it on this board before. There are quite few Scriptures, however, what really sold me is looking at the problems with Penal atonement. I found so many difficulties when I began to really look a the doctrine that I just had to reject it. One of the biggest is that I couldn't find anything in Scripture that says God required payment for sins. Also, a debt cannot be both paid and forgiven. Some Christians say Jesus paid the sin debt to God, if that is the case what is left to forgive? The two, payment and forgiveness are mutually exclusive. I can pm you some passages.
 
Butch5 said:
LOL, I think I've discussed it on this board before. There are quite few Scriptures, however, what really sold me is looking at the problems with Penal atonement. I found so many difficulties when I began to really look a the doctrine that I just had to reject it. One of the biggest is that I couldn't find anything in Scripture that says God required payment for sins. Also, a debt cannot be both paid and forgiven. Some Christians say Jesus paid the sin debt to God, if that is the case what is left to forgive? The two, payment and forgiveness are mutually exclusive. I can pm you some passages.
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5 Surely for your lifeblood I will demand a reckoning; from the hand of every beast I will require it, and from the hand of man. From the hand of every man's brother I will require the life of man.
Genesis 9:5

JLB
 
Butch5 said:
LOL, I think I've discussed it on this board before. There are quite few Scriptures, however, what really sold me is looking at the problems with Penal atonement. I found so many difficulties when I began to really look a the doctrine that I just had to reject it. One of the biggest is that I couldn't find anything in Scripture that says God required payment for sins. Also, a debt cannot be both paid and forgiven. Some Christians say Jesus paid the sin debt to God, if that is the case what is left to forgive? The two, payment and forgiveness are mutually exclusive. I can pm you some passages.
Click to expand...

Ah ok Butch. Hebrews 9 seems to indicate blood sacrifice was to appease Yahweh's justice ( or universal justice maybe ). I'll take a look at scriptures you pm to me.

Are you permitted to hijack your own thread :D Sorry about the distraction mate.
 
JLB said:
5 Surely for your lifeblood I will demand a reckoning; from the hand of every beast I will require it, and from the hand of man. From the hand of every man's brother I will require the life of man.
Genesis 9:5

JLB
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I'm not sure how this is an atonement for sins. However, we've gotten back to the topic.
 
Butch5 said:
I'm not sure how this is an atonement for sins. However, we've gotten back to the topic.
Click to expand...

One of the biggest is that I couldn't find anything in Scripture that says God required payment for sins
Click to expand...

5 Surely for your lifeblood I will demand a reckoning; from the hand of every beast I will require it, and from the hand of man. From the hand of every man's brother I will require the life of man. 6 "Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed; For in the image of God He made man. Genesis 9:5-6

What is owed to God is a payment.

A life for a life.

The first payment was an innocent animal to cover Adam and Eve for there sin.

The soul that sins must die.

The payment for sin is the death of the person who sinned.

The evidence of death is the blood has been shed, for the life of all flesh is in the blood.

Jesus Christ is the final Payment for our sins.
 
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