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Body, Soul, and Spirit

Deborah13 said:
Hi Butch,
I think some problems arise when we look at the Hebrew text compared to the NET.

Ok taking the translation of NET.
"will not remain in humankind" or mankind.
Another translation from the LXX, says "among mankind"
"since they are mortal" or flesh

I don't have access to the LXX with a word for word to see what Greek word is used for flesh, is it sarx?
But I did look at the Hebrew, the word translated 'flesh,erring flesh' is actually a compound of two Hebrew word.
H1320 and H7683. basar and shagag
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/gen6.pdf
Basar can certainly be rendered as flesh but what about shagag? It means, "to go astray, err, commit sin or error"
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H7683&t=KJV

The Hebrew for the word translated as 'strive' or 'remain' that word is H1777.
  1. to judge, contend, plead
    1. (Qal)
      1. to act as judge, minister judgment

      2. to plead a cause

      3. to execute judgment, requite, vindicate

      4. to govern

      5. to contend, strive
    2. (Niphal) to be at strife, quarrel
The NET says "They will remain for 120 more years." In context, God is saying that He is only going to remain, strive, put up with (my para) man for another 120 more years.
This is the count down to the flood.
Who is "they"? The evil ones that God describes in this scripture.

This cannot possibly be talking about how long a man will live his life or be in his physical flesh.
Shem lived 600 yrs. and his oldest son lived 483 yrs. Gen.11
This son of Shem was born two years after the flood when Shem was 102 yrs. old.

So when I look at all this information I would say the YLT got right. "erring flesh".
Click to expand...

Hi Deb,

I forgot to answer you're question about the flesh, it is sarx.
 
Butch5 said:
Hi Digging,

It seems there was a teaching among the early Christians that the 6 days of creation were both historic and prophetic. They said the 6 days of creation were also prophetic of a 6000 year period where man would be under the curse. There are hints of this in the Scriptures but it's not taught directly, If you add up 120 Jubilee cycles it equals 6000 years. The Jubilee is the 50th year in the cycle that God gave the Jews to keep. They were to work the land for 6 years and let it rest on the 7th. This was called a week, it was a week of years. they were to do this 7 time which was a total of 49 years, the 50th was to be a year of Jubilee where they were not to work the land, all debts were canceled, all land returned to the original owner etc. The problem was that the Jews didn't really do this and which is the reason for the Babylonian captivity where God removed them from the and gave the land a 70 year rest. It was one year for each of the Jubilee years that they had neglected.


7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says: "Today, if you will hear His voice,
8 Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, In the day of trial in the wilderness,
9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, And saw My works forty years.
10 Therefore I was angry with that generation, And said,`They always go astray in their heart, And they have not known My ways.'
11 So I swore in My wrath,`They shall not enter My rest.'"
12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,
15 while it is said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion."
16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses?
17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
NKJ Hebrews 4:1 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it.
2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.
3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath,`They shall not enter My rest,'" although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: "And God rested on the seventh day from all His works";
5 and again in this place: "They shall not enter My rest."
6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience,
7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, "Today," after such a long time, as it has been said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts."
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God.
10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.
11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience. (Heb 3:7-11 NKJ)

Paul speaks of entering God's rest as the 7th day, this implies that there are 6 prior days. The rest is entering the kingdom which is according to Revelation is the 1000 year reign of Christ. If there are 6 days prior to this it would imply 6000 years. There are statements in the Scriptures that seem to be indicating this for instance,

8 "Blow the ram's horn in Gibeah, The trumpet in Ramah! Cry aloud at Beth Aven,`Look behind you, O Benjamin!'
9 Ephraim shall be desolate in the day of rebuke; Among the tribes of Israel I make known what is sure.
10 "The princes of Judah are like those who remove a landmark; I will pour out My wrath on them like water.
11 Ephraim is oppressed and broken in judgment, Because he willingly walked by human precept.
12 Therefore I will be to Ephraim like a moth, And to the house of Judah like rottenness.
13 "When Ephraim saw his sickness, And Judah saw his wound, Then Ephraim went to Assyria And sent to King Jareb; Yet he cannot cure you, Nor heal you of your wound.
14 For I will be like a lion to Ephraim, And like a young lion to the house of Judah. I, even I, will tear them and go away; I will take them away, and no one shall rescue.
15 I will return again to My place Till they acknowledge their offense. Then they will seek My face; In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me."

NKJ Hosea 6:1 Come, and let us return to the LORD; For He has torn, but He will heal us; He has stricken, but He will bind us up.
2 After two days He will revive us; On the third day He will raise us up, That we may live in His sight.
3 Let us know, Let us pursue the knowledge of the LORD. His going forth is established as the morning; He will come to us like the rain, Like the latter and former rain to the earth.
4 "O Ephraim, what shall I do to you? O Judah, what shall I do to you? For your faithfulness is like a morning cloud, And like the early dew it goes away.
5 Therefore I have hewn them by the prophets, I have slain them by the words of My mouth; And your judgments are like light that goes forth.
6 For I desire mercy and not sacrifice, And the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
7 "But like men1 they transgressed the covenant; There they dealt treacherously with Me.
8 Gilead is a city of evildoers, And defiled with blood.
9 As bands of robbers lie in wait for a man, So the company of priests murder on the way to Shechem; Surely they commit lewdness.
10 I have seen a horrible thing in the house of Israel: There is the harlotry of Ephraim; Israel is defiled.
11 Also, O Judah, a harvest is appointed for you, When I return the captives of My people. (Hos 5:8-11 NKJ)

In this passage God has brought judgment on Israel, however, notice the passage says, "after two day He will revive us; on the third day He will raise us up."

Compare that with a statement that Jesus made.

31 On that very day some Pharisees came, saying to Him, "Get out and depart from here, for Herod wants to kill You."
32 And He said to them, "Go, tell that fox,`Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.' (Luk 13:31-32 NKJ)

Scripture says a day with the Lord is as a thousand years. I think most scholars accept that there are 2000 years from creation to Abraham and 2000 years from Abraham to Christ, that's a total of 4000 years. At the crucifixion the veil on the temple was torn, i believe this is an indication that God had gone away from the Jews, in the passage from Hosea God said He would go away. In Romans Paul says that the Jews were rejected util the fullness of the Gentiles has come in then the Jews will return. In Hosea God said He would return to His place until the Jews sought Him. The passage says that at that time, after two days God will revive them. Jesus said He's working two days and will be perfected on the third. If these are prophetic days (1000 years) it brings things to a completion in 6000 thousand year. There were 4000 years from creation to Christ then the "after two days" of Hosea and the "today and tomorrow" that Jesus spoke of for a total of 6000 years. That would mean that the 7th day, Christ's kingdom, would begin at the 7000th year.

If you start the Jubilee calendar at creation there are quite a few things that fall on Jubilee years that are hard to chalk up to coincidence. For instance, Abraham and Isaac were born on Jubilee years. The Jubilee we are year of release, the Exodus was Israel's release and happened on the 50th jubilee, a jubilee of jubilees. I think the Babylonian exile of 70 years was on the 70th Jubilees. It's very interesting to say the least and I think there is a good bit of evidence. Here is a quote from the book of Barnabas. For more quotes see, "The Early Church and Six thousand Years"



Barnabas, (AD 70-130)

““And God made in six days the works of His hands, and made an end on the seventh day, and rested on it, and sanctified it.” Attend, my children, to the meaning of this expression, “He finished in six days.” This implieth that the Lord will finish all things in six thousand years, for a day is with Him a thousand years. And He Himself testifieth, saying, “Behold, to-day will be as a thousand years.” (Ps. 90:4; 2 Pet. 3:8) Therefore, my children, in six days, that is, in six thousand years, all things will be finished. “And He rested on the seventh day.” This meaneth: when His Son, coming [again], shall destroy the time of the wicked man, and judge the ungodly, and change the sun, and the moon, and the stars, then shall He truly rest on the seventh day.”
Click to expand...

I have heard this teaching before and it does make sense to me. One thing that I could add to this is that I also heard the point made that, in Noah's day when it was written that, And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.../(Genesis 6:3), that it is talking about Jubilee years. If you multiply 120 by 50...it adds up to 6000. How about that? :)
 
Edward said:
I have heard this teaching before and it does make sense to me. One thing that I could add to this is that I also heard the point made that, in Noah's day when it was written that, And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.../(Genesis 6:3), that it is talking about Jubilee years. If you multiply 120 by 50...it adds up to 6000. How about that? :)
Click to expand...

Yes, that is what we are getting at. I think this has a good bit of support.
 
Butch5 said:
Hi Digging,

It seems there was a teaching among the early Christians that the 6 days of creation were both historic and prophetic. They said the 6 days of creation were also prophetic of a 6000 year period where man would be under the curse. There are hints of this in the Scriptures but it's not taught directly, If you add up 120 Jubilee cycles it equals 6000 years. The Jubilee is the 50th year in the cycle that God gave the Jews to keep. They were to work the land for 6 years and let it rest on the 7th. This was called a week, it was a week of years. they were to do this 7 time which was a total of 49 years, the 50th was to be a year of Jubilee where they were not to work the land, all debts were canceled, all land returned to the original owner etc. The problem was that the Jews didn't really do this and which is the reason for the Babylonian captivity where God removed them from the and gave the land a 70 year rest. It was one year for each of the Jubilee years that they had neglected.


7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says: "Today, if you will hear His voice,
8 Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, In the day of trial in the wilderness,
9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, And saw My works forty years.
10 Therefore I was angry with that generation, And said,`They always go astray in their heart, And they have not known My ways.'
11 So I swore in My wrath,`They shall not enter My rest.'"
12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,
15 while it is said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion."
16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses?
17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
NKJ Hebrews 4:1 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it.
2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.
3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath,`They shall not enter My rest,'" although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: "And God rested on the seventh day from all His works";
5 and again in this place: "They shall not enter My rest."
6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience,
7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, "Today," after such a long time, as it has been said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts."
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God.
10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.
11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience. (Heb 3:7-11 NKJ)

Paul speaks of entering God's rest as the 7th day, this implies that there are 6 prior days. The rest is entering the kingdom which is according to Revelation is the 1000 year reign of Christ. If there are 6 days prior to this it would imply 6000 years. There are statements in the Scriptures that seem to be indicating this for instance,

8 "Blow the ram's horn in Gibeah, The trumpet in Ramah! Cry aloud at Beth Aven,`Look behind you, O Benjamin!'
9 Ephraim shall be desolate in the day of rebuke; Among the tribes of Israel I make known what is sure.
10 "The princes of Judah are like those who remove a landmark; I will pour out My wrath on them like water.
11 Ephraim is oppressed and broken in judgment, Because he willingly walked by human precept.
12 Therefore I will be to Ephraim like a moth, And to the house of Judah like rottenness.
13 "When Ephraim saw his sickness, And Judah saw his wound, Then Ephraim went to Assyria And sent to King Jareb; Yet he cannot cure you, Nor heal you of your wound.
14 For I will be like a lion to Ephraim, And like a young lion to the house of Judah. I, even I, will tear them and go away; I will take them away, and no one shall rescue.
15 I will return again to My place Till they acknowledge their offense. Then they will seek My face; In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me."

NKJ Hosea 6:1 Come, and let us return to the LORD; For He has torn, but He will heal us; He has stricken, but He will bind us up.
2 After two days He will revive us; On the third day He will raise us up, That we may live in His sight.
3 Let us know, Let us pursue the knowledge of the LORD. His going forth is established as the morning; He will come to us like the rain, Like the latter and former rain to the earth.
4 "O Ephraim, what shall I do to you? O Judah, what shall I do to you? For your faithfulness is like a morning cloud, And like the early dew it goes away.
5 Therefore I have hewn them by the prophets, I have slain them by the words of My mouth; And your judgments are like light that goes forth.
6 For I desire mercy and not sacrifice, And the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
7 "But like men1 they transgressed the covenant; There they dealt treacherously with Me.
8 Gilead is a city of evildoers, And defiled with blood.
9 As bands of robbers lie in wait for a man, So the company of priests murder on the way to Shechem; Surely they commit lewdness.
10 I have seen a horrible thing in the house of Israel: There is the harlotry of Ephraim; Israel is defiled.
11 Also, O Judah, a harvest is appointed for you, When I return the captives of My people. (Hos 5:8-11 NKJ)

In this passage God has brought judgment on Israel, however, notice the passage says, "after two day He will revive us; on the third day He will raise us up."

Compare that with a statement that Jesus made.

31 On that very day some Pharisees came, saying to Him, "Get out and depart from here, for Herod wants to kill You."
32 And He said to them, "Go, tell that fox,`Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.' (Luk 13:31-32 NKJ)

Scripture says a day with the Lord is as a thousand years. I think most scholars accept that there are 2000 years from creation to Abraham and 2000 years from Abraham to Christ, that's a total of 4000 years. At the crucifixion the veil on the temple was torn, i believe this is an indication that God had gone away from the Jews, in the passage from Hosea God said He would go away. In Romans Paul says that the Jews were rejected util the fullness of the Gentiles has come in then the Jews will return. In Hosea God said He would return to His place until the Jews sought Him. The passage says that at that time, after two days God will revive them. Jesus said He's working two days and will be perfected on the third. If these are prophetic days (1000 years) it brings things to a completion in 6000 thousand year. There were 4000 years from creation to Christ then the "after two days" of Hosea and the "today and tomorrow" that Jesus spoke of for a total of 6000 years. That would mean that the 7th day, Christ's kingdom, would begin at the 7000th year.

If you start the Jubilee calendar at creation there are quite a few things that fall on Jubilee years that are hard to chalk up to coincidence. For instance, Abraham and Isaac were born on Jubilee years. The Jubilee we are year of release, the Exodus was Israel's release and happened on the 50th jubilee, a jubilee of jubilees. I think the Babylonian exile of 70 years was on the 70th Jubilees. It's very interesting to say the least and I think there is a good bit of evidence. Here is a quote from the book of Barnabas. For more quotes see, "The Early Church and Six thousand Years"



Barnabas, (AD 70-130)

““And God made in six days the works of His hands, and made an end on the seventh day, and rested on it, and sanctified it.” Attend, my children, to the meaning of this expression, “He finished in six days.” This implieth that the Lord will finish all things in six thousand years, for a day is with Him a thousand years. And He Himself testifieth, saying, “Behold, to-day will be as a thousand years.” (Ps. 90:4; 2 Pet. 3:8) Therefore, my children, in six days, that is, in six thousand years, all things will be finished. “And He rested on the seventh day.” This meaneth: when His Son, coming [again], shall destroy the time of the wicked man, and judge the ungodly, and change the sun, and the moon, and the stars, then shall He truly rest on the seventh day.”
Click to expand...

Hmmm,

So very interesting, I have been looking and thinking about this line of reasoning for a while. I have seen slightly different patterns within the Sabbath cycles connected to this larger pattern as you have just pointed out. However I had not considered this with the days of Noah. Have you considered the 'seven times' of Daniel as connected to this same cycle ending with the conclusion of the 1000's years?

Digging
 
digging said:
Hmmm,

So very interesting, I have been looking and thinking about this line of reasoning for a while. I have seen slightly different patterns within the Sabbath cycles connected to this larger pattern as you have just pointed out. However I had not considered this with the days of Noah. Have you considered the 'seven times' of Daniel as connected to this same cycle ending with the conclusion of the 1000's years?

Digging
Click to expand...

Actually, I hadn't noticed the "seven times" til i read this post. I did a computer search and saw the references in Daniel, that is very interesting. I'll have to look into that. If you are interested in this I can recommend a book on the subject and some audios by the same author, He did the audio series as a class and then the book was published. I was skeptical at first but found the evidence compelling. Also if you'd like you can download a free pdf of the Ante Nicene Fathers here and search for either "6000" or "six thousand" and you'll see many of the quotes from the Early Christians about the 6000 years. Let me know you're interested in the audio link.
 
I looked at your link, I agree that the fall festivals seem to still be waiting for a larger fulfillment in Christ, I don't feel it's necessary to state an exact date to Jesus's return. For myself I see his return like the changing of a season. We know when 'spring' is to arrive but does it really come in one day....not really but rather is is a process of transition from one season to the next and then one day we say to ourselves oh summer is coming, spring is here.

I see the cycles of the 7000 years or seven times as a similar seasonal pattern. God has communicated to us a way of watching for these changes that are to come upon the earth and humanity.

I want to add another point that I hope does not seem to unreasonable. It has to do with energy, all life on earth is supported by biologically processed energy from the sun. For life to thrive there needs to be a constant flowing of various elements within certain amounts. To little and life dies, to much and life is killed. I believe this 'balancing' between the two extremes is also explained through all three of the Sabbath cycles.

God is trying to teach us that excess accumulation is also an excess of stored energy.
Just like deficiencies harm life so do excesses! Energy in any form if in excess causes chaos, this is a point we need to become aware now.

The Sabbath rest is, I believe really about this natural regulating pulse that is needed so life it's self can continue to be supported. Humanity has been 'working' for six days and the Sabbath is coming whether we want it or not because it's not about a religious obligation but it's about physics and earth science. It's a fact of creation and how energy interacts with the planet, largely we have so far failed to perceive this.

Because mankind is alienated from God we have created a global civilization that is completely out of balance and heading into complete chaos because of our greedy pursuit of energy in every form. This is what will bring the chaos, this has been told to us through the lesson of the Sabbaths.

Digging
 
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Digging this is an interesting concept. Are you OEC because I wonder if your idea here could link to climatology ?
 
I would love to be able to talk with other Christians who might be thinking about these kinds of connections between the bible and reality.

Digging
 
Oh yes I'm that, I believe in creation but I see the 'days' of creation as markers of changing stages of his creating process on a far larger time line than human days or years.
 
digging said:
Oh yes I'm that, I believe in creation but I see the 'days' of creation as markers of changing stages of his creating process on a far larger time line than human days or years.
Click to expand...

Yes it's an interesting subject when we think of comparing a cyclic period which may be very long to a 24 hour day cycle as shown to the Israelite. Most people suggest the 7* 24 hour day cycle implies the Genesis creation account must also be the same whereas what you suggest fits well imo.
 
digging said:
What about climatology you had mentioned also?

So start a new topic on energy and the Sabbaths?
Digging
Click to expand...

I'm of the opinion that the Earth has been around for Billions of years and has gone through many cycles which involve climate change. We see seasons in 3 month cycles whereas they may also be periodically much longer groupings imo. These cycles seem to be methodical and influenced by the sun along with local ( Earthly ) reactions and likely are the very cycles Yahweh instituted for some reason which effects energy as you suggest. It's all just loose thinking atm.

Yeah sure start a thread on that if you like.
 
If believers die before the rapture their bodies go into the grave.Their soul goes to heaven.They will go through the judgment of the Bema Seat.They are saved so they will go to heaven.They will be judged for everything they have done while in their bodies on Earth.They will either receive reward or reward will be taken away.When the unbeliever dies their bodies go into the grave and their souls go to hades to await the final judgment which is the Great White Throne Judgment.The unbelievers will go through a judgment at the end of the Millenium called the White Throne Judgment.They will be judged for everything they have done in thought,word and deed.They will then be thrown into the lake of fire or hell along with Satan.This is an eternal conscious torment.They will be very aware of this and suffer this for an eternity.
 
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digging said:
I looked at your link, I agree that the fall festivals seem to still be waiting for a larger fulfillment in Christ, I don't feel it's necessary to state an exact date to Jesus's return. For myself I see his return like the changing of a season. We know when 'spring' is to arrive but does it really come in one day....not really but rather is is a process of transition from one season to the next and then one day we say to ourselves oh summer is coming, spring is here.

I see the cycles of the 7000 years or seven times as a similar seasonal pattern. God has communicated to us a way of watching for these changes that are to come upon the earth and humanity.

I want to add another point that I hope does not seem to unreasonable. It has to do with energy, all life on earth is supported by biologically processed energy from the sun. For life to thrive there needs to be a constant flowing of various elements within certain amounts. To little and life dies, to much and life is killed. I believe this 'balancing' between the two extremes is also explained through all three of the Sabbath cycles.

God is trying to teach us that excess accumulation is also an excess of stored energy.
Just like deficiencies harm life so do excesses! Energy in any form if in excess causes chaos, this is a point we need to become aware now.

The Sabbath rest is, I believe really about this natural regulating pulse that is needed so life it's self can continue to be supported. Humanity has been 'working' for six days and the Sabbath is coming whether we want it or not because it's not about a religious obligation but it's about physics and earth science. It's a fact of creation and how energy interacts with the planet, largely we have so far failed to perceive this.

Because mankind is alienated from God we have created a global civilization that is completely out of balance and heading into complete chaos because of our greedy pursuit of energy in every form. This is what will bring the chaos, this has been told to us through the lesson of the Sabbaths.

Digging
Click to expand...

Hi Digging,

I've heard others speak of this but I've haven't looked into it.
 
Butch5 said:
Having come to this conclusion I have to conclude that man cannot live apart from the body. This obviously creates a tension with the view held by mainstream Christianity which believes that man lives on after his death.
Click to expand...
Then you are in conflict with Luke 16 and 23, where Jesus teaches about paradise/after life spirit/soul existence.
There is also 1 Peter 4:6
 
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