Body, Soul, and Spirit

[Deborah13]

The OT Saints went down to Sheol when they died. Would you like me to show you this?

No, I read about Sheol before. To me it really doesn't matter what it is called.
I just don't believe anyone one went to heaven before Jesus did as the firstfruits of the Resurrection. I don't believe He did this until after He was resurrected. He said three days and three nights.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

No, I read about Sheol before. To me it really doesn't matter what it is called.
I just don't believe anyone one went to heaven before Jesus did as the firstfruits of the Resurrection. I don't believe He did this until after He was resurrected. He said three days and three nights.

The OT Jews didn't have any conception of conscious existence after death, beyond a belief in the resurrection. That's my point.

 

[DRS81]

If Jesus were to be separated from his body and just be a Spirit, would that be someone else then? His spirit isn't a possession, it is him.

Did Jesus cease to exist for three days?

Show me scripture where it says the spirit of Jesus was in Paradise and on earth at the same time.

 

[Edward]

Do you have scripture to prove this..

Luke 23:43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

You will be with (me, Jesus Christ). When Jesus said this was he still in his body?

I gave you the scripture, brother. ;)

I get it that Jesus was still in his body when He said that, but his body is not HIM. It's a temporary dwelling place. If I seen you drive by in your car, I could say, there goes John (or whatever) and it would be an accurate statement, however John is not the car, John is inside the car and can exit the car and still be alive.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Show me scripture where it says the spirit of Jesus was in Paradise and on earth at the same time.

Jesus' body was dead, and therefore he was separated from his body. I am therefore claiming that his spirit was present with the thief in a place called "paradise."

Am I 100% positive of this? No, but it seems the only explanation I can come up with regarding his comments in Luke 23:43, where he told the thief that he would be with him in paradise on that very same day.

I do not think it was an empty promise, or a reference to the distant future where the man would be resurrected, but rather it was a promise that Jesus kept.

 

[Edward]

Jesus' body was dead, and therefore he was separated from his body. I am therefore claiming that his spirit was present with the thief in a place called "paradise."

Am I 100% positive of this? No, but it seems the only explanation I can come up with regarding his comments in Luke 23:43, where he told the thief that he would be with him in paradise on that very same day.

I do not think it was an empty promise, or a reference to the distant future where the man would be resurrected, but rather it was a promise that Jesus kept.

I haven't seen any scriptures which state that the Spirit of Jesus was in Paradise and on earth at the same time, however, there is a scripture that I posted that seriously infers that a "spirit" can be and is in two places at once.

Ephesians 2:4-6

 

[DRS81]

I get it that Jesus was still in his body when He said that, but his body is not HIM. It's a temporary dwelling place. If I seen you drive by in your car, I could say, there goes John (or whatever) and it would be an accurate statement, however John is not the car, John is inside the car and can exit the car and still be alive.

Hi Edward. But John has a body. What do you think is driving the car. Scripture doesn't say you will be with my spirit in a temporary dwelling place. It says you will be with ME in Paradise. The Greek word for Paradise is a place of blessedness, from the base meaning of garden ... in the LXX for the Garden of Eden...https://www.teknia.com/search/node/paradise type:lexicon - Rev 22:3 doesn't say the spirit of the Lamb, it says the Lamb. The Lamb is Jesus Christ inside his body reigning with us forever. And all this occurs after the first resurrection....

Rev 21:2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.
Rev 22 Eden Restored 1Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.

Jesus' body was dead, and therefore he was separated from his body. I am therefore claiming that his spirit was present with the thief in a place called "paradise."

But his spirit was still on earth the day he died. There is another explanation...I believe Jesus was simply using comforting words towards the thief. Can you imagine Jesus saying, "After the general resurrection, which will occur after an indefinite period that only the Father knows, you shall be with me in Paradise." What the thief asked Jesus was to be remembered in His kingdom (Luke 23:42), and this is exactly what Jesus promised him, thus the dying man received peace and comfort. This is the great promise of the gospel—to be with Jesus forever.

 

[Deborah13]

I haven't seen any scriptures which state that the Spirit of Jesus was in Paradise and on earth at the same time, however, there is a scripture that I posted that seriously infers that a "spirit" can be and is in two places at once.

Ephesians 2:4-6

Where in this scripture does it infer this? Please explain.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

But his spirit was still on earth the day he died. There is another explanation...I believe Jesus was simply using comforting words towards the thief.

His Spirit was on the Earth until he said, "Father into your hands I commit my spirit." Then he died.

It seems we have a bit of information regarding what happened to Jesus' spirit, it was committed into the hands of the Father.

I also reject your interpretation as it effectively has Jesus telling the thief a falsehood. If Jesus told him that on the same day he would be with him in paradise, but that actually didn't happen.. what would that make Jesus?

I think it's more important to preserve the faithfulness of God, than denying the intermediate state for believers.

"After the general resurrection, which will occur after an indefinite period that only the Father knows, you shall be with me in Paradise."

Or rather he could have said, "when I come in glory, you will be with me in Paradise," that would have spoken at least to the knowledge that the thief had. Or "one day, you will be with me in paradise." Let's go off of what Jesus said, and not suppose he was purposefully misleading or dishonest in his promises.

Jesus' words to the thief could only have truly been comforting, if they would have been true. I believe they were true.

What the thief asked Jesus was to be remembered in His kingdom (Luke 23:42), and this is exactly what Jesus promised him, thus the dying man received peace and comfort. This is the great promise of the gospel—to be with Jesus forever.

Yes, but Jesus specified the date of their reunion. Today.

There is simply no getting around that without creating a bigger problem.

Has Jesus exaggerated his promises to us, simply to provide us comfort? How is this anything other than lying? Is dishonesty justifiable as long as it is comforting or less confusing?

 

[Deborah13]

Jesus' body was dead, and therefore he was separated from his body. I am therefore claiming that his spirit was present with the thief in a place called "paradise."

Am I 100% positive of this? No, but it seems the only explanation I can come up with regarding his comments in Luke 23:43, where he told the thief that he would be with him in paradise on that very same day.

I do not think it was an empty promise, or a reference to the distant future where the man would be resurrected, but rather it was a promise that Jesus kept.

I agree with this.
There was not one time Jesus uddered an idle word. I don't think He was just telling a white lie in order to comfort someone.

 

[digging]

Funny how a comma can change the meaning so much.

Luke 23:43 NAS
And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise..

There is no comma the translators put them in, thus belief systems of the translators do effect little things like this.

Is it possible that the comma could be after the word today?

"Truly I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise..."

Maybe Jesus was emphasizing that 'TODAY was THE day' ever promise of God was being made yes through his death which Jesus knew was very, very soon at that moment.

Digging

 

[Edward]

Where in this scripture does it infer this? Please explain.

Ok.

Ephesians 2:4-6
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:/(KJV)

Ok, so, even when we were dead in sins...
(in our flesh, not transformed/transfigured yet...)

...He raised us up and made us to sit together with Him in heavenly places...
(while we were still in our sin? our bodies? There seems to be only one way that is possible...in spirit. In Christ. We are one with Christ, are in Him and He in us. )

http://www.goodnewsarticles.com/Nov08-1.htm

Good question, Deb. It is not readily apparent to us how the spiritual realm works and so forth. of course not, we have never been taught of the spiritual realm and the mechanics of it, because they want to lead us away from our Lord and into death. It behooves us all to seek and learn about this reality of the spirit realm, for in it is life. We are to live for the spirit...what in the world does that mean? I tell you one thing, it's mighty important (we're told that in scripture umpteen times). We have only scratched the surface of comprehending this reality. It's tied to the fall. We don't really know the full extent of what all we lost when man fell into sin. This is it sister. We were created in Gods image. God is a spirit being. What does that mean to you? What are the mechanics of it? Spirits appear and disappear at will (hyper-dimensional). Jesus appeared in the room with the disciples after the resurrection. he didn't walk through the wall, he just appeared.
There's a lot to this stuff. Reach for it.

The UFO's and aliens...(demons and evil spirits) preparing us for the big lie deception. Have you ever wondered why is it that if they come from other planets, that we never see them coming from way out there? They seem to appear and disappear...because they are (lying) hyper-dimensional spirit beings also.
The kingdom of God is at hand...right here! in a parallel dimension, all around us, within us. Scientists know that there are at least 10 dimensions. this can not be proven in a practical way, but can be mathematically.

Can spirits be in two places at once? I think they can.

 

[Deborah13]

But his spirit was still on earth the day he died. There is another explanation...I believe Jesus was simply using comforting words towards the thief. Can you imagine Jesus saying, "After the general resurrection, which will occur after an indefinite period that only the Father knows, you shall be with me in Paradise." What the thief asked Jesus was to be remembered in His kingdom (Luke 23:42), and this is exactly what Jesus promised him, thus the dying man received peace and comfort. This is the great promise of the gospel—to be with Jesus forever.

So you don't think Jesus is in heaven sitting on His throne right now?

Mat 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Luk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

imo
The Kingdom of God came. Jesus fought and won the victory battle in His death and resurrection. He ascended to His throne. satan has already been judged.
But the war will continue as long as the Lord intends it to, then the kingdom will be fully manifested.

 

[Edward]

Hi Edward. But John has a body. What do you think is driving the car. Scripture doesn't say you will be with my spirit in a temporary dwelling place. It says you will be with ME in Paradise. The Greek word for Paradise is a place of blessedness, from the base meaning of garden ... in the LXX for the Garden of Eden...https://www.teknia.com/search/node/paradise type:lexicon - Rev 22:3 doesn't say the spirit of the Lamb, it says the Lamb. The Lamb is Jesus Christ inside his body reigning with us forever. And all this occurs after the first resurrection....

Rev 21:2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.
Rev 22 Eden Restored 1Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.



But his spirit was still on earth the day he died. There is another explanation...I believe Jesus was simply using comforting words towards the thief. Can you imagine Jesus saying, "After the general resurrection, which will occur after an indefinite period that only the Father knows, you shall be with me in Paradise." What the thief asked Jesus was to be remembered in His kingdom (Luke 23:42), and this is exactly what Jesus promised him, thus the dying man received peace and comfort. This is the great promise of the gospel—to be with Jesus forever.

Sure John has a body. You have a body too. But your body is not "you"...Uh, how do you know that Jesus's Spirit was still on earth the day he died? I can't believe that Jesus was giving the thief a feel good pat on the head to comfort him. It may have been comforting to the thief to hear it, but Jesus spoke the truth to him. I think the thief is still with Jesus even now as we chat.

 

[Deborah13]

Ok.

Ephesians 2:4-6
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:/(KJV)

Ok, so, even when we were dead in sins...
(in our flesh, not transformed/transfigured yet...)

...He raised us up and made us to sit together with Him in heavenly places...
(while we were still in our sin? our bodies? There seems to be only one way that is possible...in spirit. In Christ. We are one with Christ, are in Him and He in us. )

http://www.goodnewsarticles.com/Nov08-1.htm

Edward, what I think you are implying here is Gnosticism. Our physical bodies are not sinful.

 

[Edward]

Edward, what I think you are implying here is Gnosticism. Our physical bodies are not sinful.

Gnosticism? Huh? Not hardly.

probably just bad wording on my part. I don't think that the flesh is inherently sinful, but is in our flesh nature to go against God. It's still our choice to act it out or not.

Galatians 5:
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would./(KJV)

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Funny how a comma can change the meaning so much.

Luke 23:43 NAS
And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise..

There is no comma the translators put them in, thus belief systems of the translators do effect little things like this.

Is it possible that the comma could be after the word today?

"Truly I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise..."

Maybe Jesus was emphasizing that 'TODAY was THE day' ever promise of God was being made yes through his death which Jesus knew was very, very soon at that moment.

Digging

I once made the same argument, until I actually studied the grammar in the passage, which takes discourse analysis.

The Greek word for today is fronted at the beginning of the clause, which it then denotes a temporal element.

Whenever semeron is fronted at the beginning of a clausal unit, it is designating the time in which the rest of the clause takes place.

For example:

σήμερον ἀπαρνήσῃ με τρίς

Translation:

"Today, you will deny me three times."

Σήμερον σωτηρία τῷ οἴκῳ τούτῳ ἐγένετο,

Translation:

"Today, salvation has come to this house,"

And finally.

σήμερον μετ’ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ Παραδείσῳ

Translation:

"Today, you will be with me in Paradise."

The translators rightly put them in because of how the Greek authors used these words at the front of the clause to denote the time in which it took place. It is consistently translated such, and only here do people who don't know the Greek contest it. It is those who deny the translated text here who insert their beliefs in order to change the meaning of the text, when the translated text is actually built on solid grammatical evidence and discourse analysis.

 

[Deborah13]

Gnosticism? Huh? Not hardly.

probably just bad wording on my part. I don't think that the flesh is inherently sinful, but is in our flesh nature to go against God. It's still our choice to act it out or not.

Galatians 5:
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would./(KJV)

Well that's a relief.
But that means I don't understand your interpretation of Ephesian 2:4-6. Sorry.

 

[digging]

I once made the same argument, until I actually studied the grammar in the passage, which takes discourse analysis.

The Greek word for today is fronted at the beginning of the clause, which it then denotes a temporal element.

Whenever semeron is fronted at the beginning of a clausal unit, it is designating the time in which the rest of the clause takes place.

For example:

σήμερον ἀπαρνήσῃ με τρίς

Translation:

"Today, you will deny me three times."

Σήμερον σωτηρία τῷ οἴκῳ τούτῳ ἐγένετο,

Translation:

"Today, salvation has come to this house,"

And finally.

σήμερον μετ’ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ Παραδείσῳ

Translation:

"Today, you will be with me in Paradise."

The translators rightly put them in because of how the Greek authors used these words at the front of the clause to denote the time in which it took place. It is consistently translated such, and only here do people who don't know the Greek contest it. It is those who deny the translated text here who insert their beliefs in order to change the meaning of the text, when the translated text is actually built on solid grammatical evidence and discourse analysis.

It's seems the work 'today' is in the bible over 190 times, and for myself when I look at this passage it seems to me there is more than one way to see it and even understand the meaning of 'today'.

The point about the comma shows how easily the words can have other explanations.

Thanks,

Digging

 

[Doulos Iesou]

It's seems the work 'today' is in the bible over 190 times, and for myself when I look at this passage it seems to me there is more than one way to see it and even understand the meaning of 'today'.

The point about the comma shows how easily the words can have other explanations.

Thanks,

Digging

I don't think you're getting it. The translators don't put the comma there for some ambiguous or self-serving purpose. They put it there because of how Greek grammar works.

Greek authors use word order to front important information in the initial position of the clause, and in regards to the word "today" this is a Temporal Frame that establishes a specific time for the clause that follows.

In the Greek they would put the word that denotes the specific time at the front, such as the word "tomorrow," which would be followed by the rest of the clause to which the Temporal Frame would have established the time of. So it would look like this:

"Tomorrow I will go to the store to buy eggs."

The writer Luke, as I already demonstrated, is consistent in fronting the word "semeron" (Today) at the initial position of the clause.

You can disregard the rules of grammar and discourse analysis and believe whatever you want, but for me I want to believe the truth. Which is why when I studied this text, I changed my position on the matter.