Born Again?

[JLB]

Good morning JLB,
I don't expect you to understand. As a result, I actually have reservations in answering you.
I enjoy studying the historical backdrop to the culture in which Jesus taught. It is in our nature to hear what we want to hear based on our beliefs and understanding of the world around us. Point in case, baptism. Depending on your understanding and background it would be very easy for one person to misunderstand another persons words and even put words into the mouth of another that the other did not say based on what they themselves thought they heard, but in reality it was their own understanding which they erroneously imposed on another.

As far as Hillel, I don't think you will understand. I don't think you understand the historical crisis Jerusalem was in nor the impact Harod had on the Sanhedrin. As a result, you won't understand the impact Hillel had on Jewish law nor his opposition that came through Shammai.

These two great schools of thought were shaping the theological landscape of national Israel. One school of thought would be considered liberal while the other conservative. It would be like me asking you what you felt about the Trump wall. Your allegiance to your school of thought would be immediately known by your response.

When I read scripture, I am privileged to enter into a conversation, and I want to know what was being heard as much as what is being said. In regard to the wall, Jesus always sided with Hillel with the exception of divorce. Put another way, Hillel was generally closer to the words of Jesus than Shammai. Because Nicodemus was of the school of Hillel, I am interested in what he heard.

BTW, I do believe that water is a reference to baptism, but not the baptism you ascribe to since you and I speak of different baptisms.

I understand the crisis concerning scripture and what it plainly says.


So you believe water is a reference to water baptism.


Are you saying people are born again by water baptism?




JLB

 

[JLB]

John 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Things of the earth are earthly in understanding and things from above are Spiritual things we need to understand. Not with a carnal mind of knowledge,but a Spiritual mind as the Holy Spirit gives us Spiritual understanding.

We need to be seeking Spiritual wisdom and Spiritual understanding from above as we are Spiritually born again from above where God sits on His throne and Jesus sits at His right hand.

Earthly things in context here refers to natural birth.


Heavenly things then refers to Spiritual birth.




JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

ya know you seem to think were going to just jump on your bandwagon and accept your %100 correct... i have no way of checking what you claim ..i dont have the material resource .but no i cant agree with something i have no source to read. for my self. if that offends rubs you the wrong way i am sorry it does... i gave you respect in another post guess i could say where is the thank you? .but i am not after that imo what i ave read i disagree .. most time doctrine wise i dont agree with JLB in this case i do spiritual birth spiritual Change quickened by the spirit ..but you are taking this personal... how do i know? when you put something into a post . then several disagreements... it does get personal i been there ..any thing i post on church attendance gets negative comments ..so i do understand your feelings your feelings and i respect your research /apologetics . i just disagree

Anyone can read the Mishnan and the Talmud that Hillel the Elder is associated in the development of both if they are interested enough in doing so. Do you read the Torah? This would be what Nicodemus would have studied and understood, but yet not Spiritually or he wouldn't have had to go to Jesus and ask Him that question. We need the old writings to help us understand the Gospels.

 

[for_his_glory]

The conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus is about birth.


Natural birth and Spiritual birth.


In order for a person to be born again, they first must be born.


Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:3-6



Born or water = Natural birth

• That which is born of the flesh is flesh

Born of the Spirit = Spiritual Birth.

• that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John uses the phase born of water or came by water in 1 John to refer to natural birth.


This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. 1 John 5:6


This is He who came by water and blood


not only by water, but by water and blood.



Everyone born comes into this world by water.


Only One came by water and blood.

• Came by water = natural birth

• Came by water and blood = supernatural virgin birth

JLB

If you compare John 3:5 with 1 John 5:5-8 water means word as in the word being the living water (John 4:9-15) as in the Father, the word (living water Jesus) and the Holy Spirit.
The three that bear witness is Holy Spirit, Gods living word, and the blood of Jesus who made atonement for sin that we can be reconciled back to the Father.

 

[stovebolts]

I understand the crisis concerning scripture and what it plainly says.


So you believe water is a reference to water baptism.


Are you saying people are born again by water baptism?




JLB

1. Do you understand the crisis in Jerusalem and Hillel's role / impact? If so, please tell.

2. Again, and for the second time, YES, I do see water referencing Mikvah (baptism), but not the modern day baptism you ascribe to. Thus, you and I speak of different Mikvahs.

3. Not in the way you understand baptism.

 

[JLB]

1. Do you understand the crisis in Jerusalem and Hillel's role / impact? If so, please tell.

2. Again, and for the second time, YES, I do see water referencing Mikvah (baptism), but not the modern day baptism you ascribe to. Thus, you and I speak of different Mikvahs.

3. Not in the way you understand baptism.

I understand baptism from the scriptures and my experience which lines up with the scriptures.


I could care less about Hillel or Gamaliel.


I care about teaching the truth to brothers and sisters in Christ.


There are three baptisms in the scriptures.


And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:15-16



It’s safe to say, the baptism associated with believing the Gospel is paramount to our salvation.



However which baptism is He referring to here?



Matthew records it this way –

And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen. Matthew 28:20





The book of Acts records Jesus giving His apostles a command about Pentecost.



And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”
Acts 1:5-6





for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.



Paul teaches the Church through the understanding of shadows and types.



If we are to fully understand and apply these kingdom truths to our lives then we must reconcile all the scriptures that pertain to Baptisms.



Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.
1 Corinthians 10:1-4

• all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea

• Moses: A type of Christ.
• The cloud: A type of the Holy Spirit
• The sea: A type of water baptism

Baptized into Christ –



For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:12-13



When we are born again through believing the Gospel, we are baptized into Christ by the Spirit, and are one spirit with Christ.



But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 1 Corinthians 6:17



The Holy Spirit baptizes us into Christ

Man baptizes with water.

Jesus baptizes us with the Holy Spirit.



I don’t expect you to understand the scriptures nor shadows and types.




JLB

 

[JLB]

If you compare John 3:5 with 1 John 5:5-8 water means word as in the word being the living water (John 4:9-15) as in the Father, the word (living water Jesus) and the Holy Spirit.
The three that bear witness is Holy Spirit, Gods living word, and the blood of Jesus who made atonement for sin that we can be reconciled back to the Father.

Water in John 3:5 and 1 John 5:6 refers to natural birth.


Came by water and blood refers to the virgin birth.





JLB

 

[stovebolts]

I understand baptism from the scriptures and my experience which lines up with the scriptures.

I could care less about Hillel or Gamaliel.

JLB

I have understood this from your first post. As I said earlier, we are talking about two different items. I have no desire to discuss modern day doctrines in this thread and you have no desire to talk history and culture.

I do understand shadows and types, but it is not my interest for this thread.

I hope your day goes well, Brother.

 

[for_his_glory]

HI,,,
I've always pondered this...
Is the water baptism or the water of birth...amneotic fluid.

I, as you, have come to the conclusion that it must surely be amneotic fluid. It makes more sense for the reasons you posted.

Flesh is flesh.... natural birth.
Spirit is spirit....spiritual birth.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Now by reading these scriptures there is no mention of the word baptism in any form. It's a common misconception of man having added the word baptism to that which is simply not there. That which is born of the flesh is flesh. Nothing more, nothing less. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

In other words our spirit (not flesh) is born again/born from above/renewed or given a new beginning only by the Spirit that is God.

Jesus was telling Nicodemus that it is by God's Spirit renewing our inner man that we can now enter into the kingdom of God. If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. Colossians 3:1-4. We now walk in newness of life as our spirit has been made new again by the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) that indwells us.

John's baptism in water was for the repentance of sin as an outward appearance to others until Christ would come and baptize one with the Holy Spirit and with fire, which means empowerment.

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

 

[JohnDB]

2Peter:
For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water,

 

[JohnDB]

Ephesians:
To make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word

 

[JohnDB]

Isaiah 57:20
But the wicked are like the tossing sea, For it cannot be quiet, And its waters toss up refuse and mud."

 

[for_his_glory]

Earthly things in context here refers to natural birth.


Heavenly things then refers to Spiritual birth.




JLB

Flesh is flesh and Spirit is Spirit and the two can not mix, Galatians 5:17. There is the natural birth from the womb as we are all born with a spirit, which is the very breath of God that made us a living soul. Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7. We also have been born with a sin nature as all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, Romans 3:23.

Flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God, 1 Corinthians 15:50, and this is why our spirit (not flesh) needs to be renewed (born again/born from above) by the Spirit of God as we hear the Gospel which is the living water. Jesus never mentioned the word baptize in John 3:5 and when you read Matthew 3:11 this is the baptism Jesus taught and had nothing to do with literal water.

 

[for_his_glory]

Water in John 3:5 and 1 John 5:6 refers to natural birth.


Came by water and blood refers to the virgin birth.





JLB

We agree with many things, but this we will not agree on as I gave many scriptures that speak of water being living water IE: the word of God.

 

[GodsGrace]

I explained that "born again" was not something Jesus said. (In the posts I'm referring to)
Jesus said something completely different than what is commonly believed. The motives for changing it were pure but it's still wrong.

I misspoke maybe. Didn't I say that Jesus didn't teach born-again the way WE understand it today? This is why I say so many times that he did speak about salvation but not the born again theory....I can hardly say it because I'm attacked....have to watch the wording or your labeled a heretic.

Anyway, if we want to be honest,,, who knows what Jesus' exact words were. Some accounts were compressed....some words were copied wrong....we have to stick to the big picture and understand WHY we believe and then let everything go.

There was a member here (haven't seen him lately) that clung to every word as if his life depended on it. I don't think we could know each and every word Jesus said or where He said it or who He said it to.

 

[GodsGrace]

Flesh is flesh and Spirit is Spirit and the two can not mix, Galatians 5:17. There is the natural birth from the womb as we are all born with a spirit, which is the very breath of God that made us a living soul. Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7. We also have been born with a sin nature as all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, Romans 3:23.

Flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God, 1 Corinthians 15:50, and this is why our spirit (not flesh) needs to be renewed (born again/born from above) by the Spirit of God as we hear the Gospel which is the living water. Jesus never mentioned the word baptize in John 3:5 and when you read Matthew 3:11 this is the baptism Jesus taught and had nothing to do with literal water.

I agree with you, but how do you reconcile
Mathew 3:11 with Mathew 28:19 ?

I understand one to be with the Holy Spirit...
and in verse 28, I DO believe Jesus meant with water.
There is more than one baptism...

 

[GodsGrace]

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Now by reading these scriptures there is no mention of the word baptism in any form. It's a common misconception of man having added the word baptism to that which is simply not there. That which is born of the flesh is flesh. Nothing more, nothing less. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

In other words our spirit (not flesh) is born again/born from above/renewed or given a new beginning only by the Spirit that is God.

Jesus was telling Nicodemus that it is by God's Spirit renewing our inner man that we can now enter into the kingdom of God. If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. Colossians 3:1-4. We now walk in newness of life as our spirit has been made new again by the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) that indwells us.

John's baptism in water was for the repentance of sin as an outward appearance to others until Christ would come and baptize one with the Holy Spirit and with fire, which means empowerment.

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

I agree...Those that speak of water baptism, however, have such good scripture to back them up...

The above might have answered my other post to you, which I saw first....

 

[GodsGrace]

Born of water is a reference to natural birth; “water of birth”


Born of the Spirit refers to Spiritual birth.


IOW, a person must be born, in order to be born again.


Pretty simple.




John uses the water reference again in 1 John to indicate that Jesus didn’t come into the world just natural birth but supernatural birth as witnessed by the Spirit.



This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. 1 John 5:6

• This is He who came by water and blood.

• not only by water, but by water and blood.

Can you see what John is saying here?


He is talking about the virgin birth of Christ.




JLB

Thanks for that verse....
I do agree.

Even Nicodemus says he cannot go back into the womb...
If Jesus was talking about baptism, he would not have said this...

 

[JohnDB]

I misspoke maybe. Didn't I say that Jesus didn't teach born-again the way WE understand it today? This is why I say so many times that he did speak about salvation but not the born again theory....I can hardly say it because I'm attacked....have to watch the wording or your labeled a heretic.

Anyway, if we want to be honest,,, who knows what Jesus' exact words were. Some accounts were compressed....some words were copied wrong....we have to stick to the big picture and understand WHY we believe and then let everything go.

There was a member here (haven't seen him lately) that clung to every word as if his life depended on it. I don't think we could know each and every word Jesus said or where He said it or who He said it to.

I understand about being careful LOL...
And in this case we actually do know what was said. Poetry is one of those things that if you start messing with it the changes become obvious.
Aramaic poetry is why we know exactly what Jesus said. "Mein pen" according to the Syriac manuscripts. And that translates straight into genethe anothen...
"Born from above"
NOT
Born again.

 

[JohnDB]

Thanks for that verse....
I do agree.

Even Nicodemus says he cannot go back into the womb...
If Jesus was talking about baptism, he would not have said this...

So what about Isaiah, Paul, and Peter?

Just ignore what they wrote?
And since that's ludicrous what did they mean by the water they spoke about?