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StoveBolts said:
I think I'm interested in asking different questions than you are. Questions you won't be able to answer because you don't hold the wisdom Nicodemus held.
Have you ever studied Hillel? I've done a little, but I want to learn more.
Click to expand...


Is Hillel writings inspired, Jeff ?


Why are you so caught up with Jewish commentary from those who may not have been believers, while ignoring what the text of the New Testament says?


Makes zero sense.


What are you promoting by this attitude?


What’s the point of talking about Hillel when the discussion is about what Jesus taught concerning being born again ?




JLB
 
StoveBolts said:
JohnDB,
You were saying something earlier that Nicodemus would have heard Jesus saying something about being predestined as a saint. Can you explain where that understanding came from? Was it just known and if so, shouldn't there be hints of it in the Talmud?
Click to expand...
In a caste based society (such as Israel) everyone had a caste they belonged to.
They even classified their heroes and prophets.

Certain prophets, judges, and heroes (sent by God) were prophesied about before they were born. The list included such greats as Isaac, Jacob, Sampson, Moses, and Samuel. These guys exemplified the concepts of Called and Chosen and were referred to as what we would refer to as Saints but they were sent by God to help Israel in some fashion. They would classify them as Sons of God or Born from Heaven.
Some would have great wisdom to relate (like a prophet) and others (saints) would perform actions.

Nicodemus came to Jesus claiming that Jesus was a "saint". That he was sent by God to help all of Israel.

Jesus then half talking to himself and half talking to Nicodemus said that Nicodemus couldn't have recognized the situation unless he was a "saint".

Nicodemus was incredulous because his birth had not been prophesied about that he was aware of and would need to go back into his mother's womb to be born again after his birth had been prophesied about first. He had lived a perfectly normal life.

Which makes more sense than a spiritual leader (who followed the Law and had true humility) and believed in Jesus needing to repent in order to receive salvation and Jesus telling him that after Nicodemus is asking to be friends with Jesus.
 
JohnDB said:
I put up two posts of facts showing precisely why "born again" is not an acceptable translation of the manuscripts and why.
Click to expand...


Your facts are commentary from other people.

Why ignore what the scripture says.


Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:5-6


Do you believe born of the Spirit refers to spiritual birth?


Do you believe born of water refers to natural birth?



To me, verse 5, explains verse 6.


Born of water refers to “that which is born of the flesh is flesh”.


Born of the Spirit refers to “that which is born of the Spirit is spirit”.


To me, it seems simple.



How about you?




JLB
 
JLB said:
Is Hillel writings inspired, Jeff ?


Why are you so caught up with Jewish commentary from those who may not have been believers, while ignoring what the text of the New Testament says?


Makes zero sense.


What are you promoting by this attitude?


What’s the point of talking about Hillel when the discussion is about what Jesus taught concerning being born again ?




JLB
Click to expand...
Because it was the thought process of those who were educated in Spiritual matters such as Nicodemus was..."What was Nicodemus thinking?" Is of all relevance to the conversation.
 
JLB said:
Your facts are commentary from other people.

Why ignore what the scripture says.


Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:5-6


Do you believe born of the Spirit refers to spiritual birth?


Do you believe born of water refers to natural birth?



To me, verse 5, explains verse 6.


Born of water refers to “that which is born of the flesh is flesh”.


Born of the Spirit refers to “that which is born of the Spirit is spirit”.


To me, it seems simple.



How about you?




JLB
Click to expand...
Your questions have been answered and aren't relevant. You have missed the entire focus of the facts I've presented.
 
JohnDB said:
Because it was the thought process of those who were educated in Spiritual matters such as Nicodemus was..."What was Nicodemus thinking?" Is of all relevance to the conversation.
Click to expand...


Based on what Jesus said to him, I don’t really see much of any great wisdom coming from him on spiritual matters.




JLB
 
JLB said:
Based on what Jesus said to him, I don’t really see much of any great wisdom coming from him on spiritual matters.




JLB
Click to expand...
But Jesus was not quoted accurately.

How can you make a theological position on something I have proved Jesus did NOT say?
 
JohnDB said:
Your questions have been answered and aren't relevant. You have missed the entire focus of the facts I've presented.
Click to expand...


My question was s most certainly relevant and has most certainly not been answered sir.


It’s s simple question.


Do you believe born of the Spirit refers to water baptism?




JLB
 
JLB said:
My question was s most certainly relevant and has most certainly not been answered sir.


It’s s simple question.


Do you believe born of the Spirit refers to water baptism?




JLB
Click to expand...
No,
And if you actually read anything I had posted you would have obviously realized that.
 
JohnDB said:
But Jesus was not quoted accurately.

How can you make a theological position on something I have proved Jesus did NOT say?
Click to expand...


Who said Jesus was not quoted accurately?


Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:5-6


What is not accurate about being born of the Spirit, as opposed to born of the flesh?



JLB
 
JohnDB said:
No,
And if you actually read anything I had posted you would have obviously realized that.
Click to expand...


I read what you posted John.


WhatI am asking you to clarify is the part I asked you?


Do you believe born of the Spirit refers to water baptism?




JLB
 
JohnDB said:
I did.
That's the whole focus of this thread.
Jesus answered,
Click to expand...



“Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:5-6


What is not accurate about being born of the Spirit, as opposed to born of the flesh?



JLB
 
JLB said:
I read what you posted John.


WhatI am asking you to clarify is the part I asked you?


Do you believe born of the Spirit refers to water baptism?




JLB
Click to expand...
For the fourth time...

No,
And I have already provided the proofs of how "water" is the Law of the Torah.
 
JohnDB said:
For the fourth time...

No,
And I have already provided the proofs of how "water" is the Law of the Torah.
Click to expand...


Ok.


So a person must be born of the law of the Torah and the Spirit ?


How does a person become born of the law of the Torah?




JLB
 
ya know you seem to think were going to just jump on your bandwagon and accept your %100 correct... i have no way of checking what you claim ..i dont have the material resource .but no i cant agree with something i have no source to read. for my self. if that offends rubs you the wrong way i am sorry it does... i gave you respect in another post guess i could say where is the thank you? .but i am not after that imo what i ave read i disagree .. most time doctrine wise i dont agree with JLB in this case i do spiritual birth spiritual Change quickened by the spirit ..but you are taking this personal... how do i know? when you put something into a post . then several disagreements... it does get personal i been there ..any thing i post on church attendance gets negative comments ..so i do understand your feelings your feelings and i respect your research /apologetics . i just disagree
 
ezra said:
they dont i do lean toward the water being the word... scriptures
Click to expand...


The conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus is about birth.


Natural birth and Spiritual birth.


In order for a person to be born again, they first must be born.


Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:3-6



Born or water = Natural birth

  • That which is born of the flesh is flesh

Born of the Spirit = Spiritual Birth.

  • that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


John uses the phase born of water or came by water in 1 John to refer to natural birth.


This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. 1 John 5:6


This is He who came by water and blood


not only by water, but by water and blood.



Everyone born comes into this world by water.


Only One came by water and blood.


  • Came by water = natural birth

  • Came by water and blood = supernatural virgin birth





JLB
 
ezra said:
ya know you seem to think were going to just jump on your bandwagon and accept your %100 correct... i have no way of checking what you claim ..i dont have the material resource .but no i cant agree with something i have no source to read. for my self. if that offends rubs you the wrong way i am sorry it does... i gave you respect in another post guess i could say where is the thank you? .but i am not after that imo what i ave read i disagree .. most time doctrine wise i dont agree with JLB in this case i do spiritual birth spiritual Change quickened by the spirit ..but you are taking this personal... how do i know? when you put something into a post . then several disagreements... it does get personal i been there ..any thing i post on church attendance gets negative comments ..so i do understand your feelings your feelings and i respect your research /apologetics . i just disagree
Click to expand...
If the topics that are the actual focus of the thread are discussed I am good with that.

You have done so. You don't have any proofs but you disagree. I can respect that. I may not understand it but it's a respectable position to hold.

It's when the topic is ignored and other topics are discussed it gets annoying.
 
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