Reposting the two posts from before...just so
JLB can't claim he has read them but is really ignoring them and claim I've posted nothing in the meantime
AND
So
wondering can find them as well
Lets consider some facts from a completely inductive method.
This is the Gospel of John.
John has several themes that run rampant throughout his Gospel. Most of these themes directly address theological arguments of the day and time of Jesus' ministry tour and subsequent fallout.
Some of these themes are outlined in his first Chapter which include:
The identity of Jesus.
The identity of those who follow Jesus (Bene Elohim...John 1:12)
So...If the most likely language that the action took place in was Aramaic then the most likely thing said wasn't in Greek and the Gospel of John (which is actually in Early Latin which is mostly Koine Greek) has been translated by John to begin with. And in fact some of the Oldest Aramaic translations of the New Testament Gospel of John have an expression which is "men derish". Where this expression does have a double entendre of "born again" the primary meaning was "Born from Above" which fits more precisely with one of the Themes of the Gospel of John. Rebirth is more in fitting with Greek Grammar....but John didn't say that Jesus said this...so obviously "Men Derish" is the most likely expression used by Jesus who most definitely had a way with words.
Jesus often taught using prose of some form...Nicodemus' visit and subsequent lesson wouldn't be any exception to the rule. It would mean that the lessons would be more focused and Nicodemus would be at his limit of trying to keep up with the rapid fire lessons and explanations. But as a learned man Nicodemus could drink from a fire hose if necessary...and with Jesus it most definitely be necessary.
All of the Gospels showed a trait of Jesus...a very telling trait.
Anybody who recognized Jesus as being sent by God was instantly rewarded. Anybody who asked Jesus for a miracle received one. Anybody who referred to Jesus as The Son of God especially received a miracle.
Nicodemus came during the evening hours. Which actually is Social Hour in Israel. These guys stay up late! I found it baffling myself as a normal "early riser". When the party boat on the Sea of Gallilee was playing Bon Jovi and other '80's tunes past 11pm it was a tad annoying. Hey, I like Ozzy too...but not at that time of night when all I want to do is sleep. The disco ball was a bit much imho but hey...its their place not mine.
Now Nicodemus came recognizing Jesus' miracles and teaching as being legitimate. Thats in direct defiance of most of the Pharisees and Sadducees and "experts in the Law" aka Grammitons.
Now according to
Moses ben Maimon commonly known as Maimonides there were two different groups of "heroes". And as Israel was known for being a caste based society it should be of special notice. Maimonides came from the 1100's AD...not exactly from that day and time of the action of the Gospel...and he was most definitely Jewish practicing Judaism. He wasn't exactly wrong...but trying to diffuse the huge impact that Christianity had upon the Jewish world. So...relating the truth without being more precise was definitely in his best interests. (He was considered a Polymath or Renaissance Man. Now Maimonides refers to two different groups of "heroes".
The Hassid or Saint
The Hakham or Sage...
Now this is a close approximation of what has been suggested of Anthropologists. The Jews were a meticulous bunch. Everyone and everything had to be categorized. Even the Heroes of Old.
Sometimes God, having pity upon Israel's misery or in keeping with Promises that God had made to Israel, sent different heroes to perform very specific tasks.
Now when someone was a great teacher they were a Hakham...or wise person that everyone listened to...we would generally refer to this person roughly as a Sage. It was more than that as this person could also be an advisor to the King...as in what Joseph did with Pharaoh. Or as in a Judge as described in the book of Judges. Which was half prophet and half leader. Which really isn't exactly what a "Judge" was but more in line with what we think of as a Judge.
Then there are the Hassid or Saint. These guys were men of Action...like Moses or Sampson or Jacob or Isaac or many others I could list here. One of the prerequisites was that they were not just Called but Chosen and that these people were prophesied about before they were born. These "Sons of God" were considered to be very holy and righteous men. Samuel could be sarcastic at times...but like often is the case no one thinks of a "Hero" as being sarcastic when he should be respectful. And "of course the Bible contains no such sarcasm or dry wit being performed by the Heroes".
This notion of a lack of sarcastic comments and dry wit are of course false.
No one even considers the fact that Nicodemus, who recognized Jesus as being sent by God, would be sarcastic to a bona fide messenger of God. And likely he wouldn't be.
But that doesn't mean that Jesus wouldn't be a bit incredulous at Nicodemus' answer back to him.
As the scripture above in
for_his_glory 's post shows the conversation...
Lets assume for just a moment that Tyndale nor Erasmus were not correct. And that Jerome was busy pontificating upon the less known double entendre of what Jesus said instead of the main thing people would understand from "born from above" or Born Anew.
What could the Jesus who spoke in parables so that the Pharisees deliberately would not understand what he was saying actually saying? And what could Nicodemus' reply actually mean?
Not that I actually am trying to promote a notion of Calvinism of Election...but a notion of Predestination of having foreknowledge from a God who knows the end of things as well as He knows the Beginning of all things.
The very notion that Nicodemus understood really well of being not just Called but Chosen by God to be a Hassid/Saint and not just a Hakham/Sage or knowledgeable person. Someone who was "Bene Elohim" and was deliberately born of God to perform a very specific task for All of Israel.
Jesus said, "No one can see the Kingdom of God unless he is a Bene Elohim/Born Anew/Born as a messenger with a task to benefit ALL OF ISRAEL...like Moses, Isaac, or Sampson. Nor could they recognize the King.
As a member of the Sanhidrin, a religious leader, and Rabbi/teacher of the Masses this would seem like empty flattery that Nicodemus did not understand how he could possibly satisfy...even with the double entendre of meaning that Nicodemus would understand half of. (The repenting and becoming a "Child of Abraham" once again. because he was a Rabbi...repenting of a mispent life was not on his agenda...nor did he need to. He was the interpreter of the Law and followed it closely)
This prompted the question that Nicodemus had of how he could possibly do his whole life over again at this point in the game. He would need to. So that his birth could be foretold by prophets, and all of Israel could look forward to his life changing the lives of everyone in Israel.
Now the term Jesus used was a backhanded way of saying Bene Elohim but not THE Son of God which was reserved for the Messiah...and Jesus wanted to make that distinction clear. Jesus knew exactly who he was...and was busy explaining to Nicodemus, who stopped by to make a friend of Jesus, who he truly was.
The answer petrified Nicodemus right down to his core more so than an entire legion of Roman soldiers coming to arrest him ever could. "There's no way possible" comes to mind when being told something like this. I'm sure this was Nicodemus' first thought. One that kept repeating itself through his mind.
While Jesus explains the same lesson he explained about the Sower and the different soils...or in the Old Testament about the Potter and the Clay. The better the quality of the soil the better the harvest or the better the quality of the clay the better the quality of the finished vessel.
That Nicodemus had been born of water and Spirit...
Water...its a backhanded, metaphoric reference to Law.
Moses started this with the sprinkling of the People with the water to cleanse them when he brought with him the "contract" of the first written words of God to the Children of Israel.
Lets look at some expressions...
Genesis
....And the Spirit of God was Hovering/Shaking/Controlling over the face of the "waters" is how scriptures say that God was choosing which laws of physics would rule the Universe.
2Peter:
The Heavens existed and the Earth was formed out of water and by water....(anything God says simply is the Law...even if you argue with it)
Wash her with the water of the Word...
More could be said but suffice it to say that the chapter divisions put into scriptures around the time people were getting access to them was deliberately done to obfuscate the reason why Jesus decided to walk upon the Tehovm/Sea/Abyss of Gallilee.
The natural chapter breaks otherwise coming from the sections of scriptures would indicate a very serious problem with the current state of things with the Holy Roman Empire's church. Nevermind the truth...we are the "good guys".
Soooo
Long and dry reading....but it does propose a more complete understanding of what was said and why it was said than anything else listed above.
and that if you happen to be reading this...you have been Called...and Chosen to do something.
