CAN A REFORMED BELIEVER FALL AWAY FROM FAITH?

[Cooper]

Just so we're clear, there is a difference between hearing and understanding. You have not been making this distinction. It does say there in Romans 10 that the problem was not that they didn't hear, but that they did not understand (Romans 10:19).

19I ask instead, did Israel not understand?

But the call was the call of faith, nonetheless (Romans 10:17-18). But they responded in unbelief and God turned them over to their unbelief and hardened theirs hearts and closed their eyes and ears so they couldn't hear and see, or else they would turn and he would heal them.

So you still have this problem. Your theology says only regenerate people are able to hear and understand. Yet, Hebrews 6:4-6 speaks of those who are enlightened but fall away. It doesn't matter if it's talking about unsaved, unregenerate people falling away, or if it's talking about saved, regenerated people falling away and not being allowed to come back to repentance. Your theology loses on both counts. That one passage forces you to decide between unsaved people being enlightened by the Spirit, or, saved people falling away. Which one do you want to go with? Which point in your theology do you want to give up in light of this very clear passage of scripture? I suggest you give up the contention that only regenerated people can be enlightened by the Spirit. That is the matter of the two that is easily discerned in scripture.

You are right to say there is a difference between hearing and understanding. We can hear something but not understand it until we have worked it out, and then we act on what we have heard. So, it is with faith. First, we believe and when we have worked it out, we act on it, and our actions or works that follow, are the result of our newborn faith.
.

 

[gordon777]

Romans 7:14–20​

​

14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, w sold under sin. 15 For I do not understand my own actions. For xI do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with ythe law, that it is good. 17 So now zit is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells ain me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 bFor I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, c it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

dont tell me you never act out in the flesh I AM not questioning your dedication to the Lord. we all try to do our best but still fall short.

i don't think your some horrible sinner who does bad things all the time .you need re examine your statement

Flesh is before we become dead to the law by the body of Jesus Christ, when we were in the flesh then we brought fruit to death, now we bring forth fruit to God ( life.)


Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

 

[GodsGrace]

your wasting your time

What I'd like to do is to understand how anyone could accept the reformed theology.
It just doesn't make sense to me - and I don't mean that in a condescending way.
It REALLY makes no sense.

So, I'm also posting for those reading along that may have questions.
And it would be nice if rogerg would reply, but it seems the calvinists on this site don't
really enjoy speaking to me. I do wonder why. They say I'm misrepresenting what they believe,
which means that even THEY don't know what they believe! They want to be calvinist in theology but do not want to be labeled.

Well, there's nothing wrong with a label, as long as it's the right one.
If you swim like a duck,
walk like a duck,
quack like a duck...

 

[GodsGrace]

It wasn't like Luther just upped and left ,no he was forced out .

I guess those works he listed that the Catholics required was Very biblical .

Ya know paying the father for indulgences,the wars and the pope etc.

Luther wasn't perfect but sorry I study the history of Florida well.

Upon sight the papists Spaniards ,caught and killed the peaceful pacifist hurguenuts who left Europa to the Americas.

Not that the protestants were better.but that event occured only a few decades after the schism.

Ft.caroline and the crown of England's break off from the pope.occured closely.

You can't say the papists didn't need reforming .

I've always said that the reformation was necessary but very sadly so.

You cannot deny that calvinist theology did NOT exist in the church for 1,500 years.
Luther did not only FIX what the CC was doing wrong,
he started a new religion that did not look like the one before.

I don't trust new ideas...among these ideas is OSAS also. It just was non-existent before the reformation.

And as to calvinism, the new churches abandoned the idea of predestination because it goes against everything biblical. Christianity no longer accepts this theology (except for the reformed).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Scripture, please.

Hebrews 3:7-8
“Today, if you hear His voice, 8do not harden your hearts

It is according to God's will and discretion when and where he will sow the seed of the kingdom on a person's 'soil'.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You fooled me.

Well, then you just haven't been reading my posts very well. And that's okay. You don't have to. I'm not a reformist.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Scripture, please.

Romans 8:29
29For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.

Foreknowledge, predestination, and election are all valid Biblical terms. The problem is people instantly think of Calvin's misunderstanding of these terms when they hear them. God does indeed know ahead of time who will choose to believe and who won't and the plans he has made ahead of time for those who believe.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What I'd like to do is to understand how anyone could accept the reformed theology.
It just doesn't make sense to me - and I don't mean that in a condescending way.
It REALLY makes no sense.

I agree.
According to Reformed theology if someone asks you what they must do to be saved the answer is, "be regenerated". To which that person would then ask, "what do I do to be regenerated?" Of course, the Reformist has to answer, "nothing, nothing at all." And away the person goes with this confused look on their face.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hebrews 3:7-8
“Today, if you hear His voice, 8do not harden your hearts

It is according to God's will and discretion when and where he will sow the seed of the kingdom on a person's 'soil'.

Why does the IF necessarily mean that God planned it?

God's grace is for all. Some "see" God sooner and some later.
Why do you think it's GOD that makes us see?
I'm thinking of Romans 1:19

 

[GodsGrace]

I agree.
According to Reformed theology if someone asks you what they must do to be saved the answer is, "be regenerated". To which that person would then ask, "what do I do to be regenerated?" Of course, the Reformist has to answer, "nothing, nothing at all." And away the person goes with this confused look on their face.

Not only a confused look, but he might wait around forever for God to regenerate him and be lost all his life.
McArthur spoke a whole hour and how it's God that created evil.
Who would want to worship a God that causes evil to His creation?
Terrible diseases, natural disasters, human tragedies, murder, etc.

Can a dog love a master that beats him up every day?

 

[Randy]

Why does the IF necessarily mean that God planned it?

God's grace is for all. Some "see" God sooner and some later.
Why do you think it's GOD that makes us see?
I'm thinking of Romans 1:19

“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day"
.
One of those listening was a woman from the city of Thyatira named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth. She was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message.

no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.


It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

Many are called, (invited), but few are chosen

 

[GodsGrace]

“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day"
.
One of those listening was a woman from the city of Thyatira named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth. She was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message.

no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.


It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

Many are called, (invited), but few are chosen

Thanks.
Good post.

The other member to whom I asked the question believes that AT A CERTAIN TIME God reveals Himself to a person and thus makes the person be able to decide for God or against God.

I was wondering why he believes this.
Do you believe God picks a specific time for us to be saved?
Or, I mean, to give us the opportunity.

 

[Cooper]

Romans 8:29
29For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.

Foreknowledge, predestination, and election are all valid Biblical terms. The problem is people instantly think of Calvin's misunderstanding of these terms when they hear them. God does indeed know ahead of time who will choose to believe and who won't and the plans he has made ahead of time for those who believe.

RED. Is that everyone in the whole world, or just those who he foreknew?
.

 

[GodsGrace]

RED. Is that everyone in the whole world, or just those who he foreknew?
.

I think you know the answer Cooper...
Those God foreknew would accept salvation through faith in Jesus.

 

[rogerg]

RED. Is that everyone in the whole world, or just those who he foreknew?
.

WHOM He foreknew, not WHAT He foreknew. Those He foreknew are the "us" below.

[Eph 1:4 KJV] 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 

[Cooper]

I think you know the answer Cooper...
Those God foreknew would accept salvation through faith in Jesus.

We are talking about the foundation of the earth, God's plane of salvation, and imo those people like Abram, David, Moses and others, who he would use to bring his plan of salvation to fruition. These would be the elect. Then when all was done, Christ opened it up to include the whosoever, the resurrection being the final act in God's plan.

Feel free to shoot me down.

.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

RED. Is that everyone in the whole world, or just those who he foreknew?
.

The question is, what did he foreknow about these people. He foreknew who would respond to the gospel message and who would not. He's God. Why would he not know that, right?

 

[GodsGrace]

We are talking about the foundation of the earth, God's plane of salvation, and imo those people like Abram, David, Moses and others, who he would use to bring his plan of salvation to fruition. These would be the elect. Then when all was done, Christ opened it up to include the whosoever, the resurrection being the final act in God's plan.

Feel free to shoot me down.

.

I'm not willing to say that these are the ELECT.
I think the elect are just those that choose God.

However, I do agree with you about those persons you mentioned.
Can't be any other way...

 

[Cooper]

I'm not willing to say that these are the ELECT.
I think the elect are just those that choose God.

However, I do agree with you about those persons you mentioned.
Can't be any other way...

Personally, I class myself as a whosoever. (Whosoever will come) I do not think for one second that I am one of the elect.
.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Not only a confused look, but he might wait around forever for God to regenerate him and be lost all his life.
McArthur spoke a whole hour and how it's God that created evil.
Who would want to worship a God that causes evil to His creation?
Terrible diseases, natural disasters, human tragedies, murder, etc.

Can a dog love a master that beats him up every day?

I don't know, I'm kind of tired of on line discussions. They aren't what they used to be. I'll just leave it at that, lol.