CAN A REFORMED BELIEVER FALL AWAY FROM FAITH?

[rogerg]

Do you know what that means?

Yes, and do you know what "chosen" and " holy and without blame" means?

 

[rogerg]

Then you definitely differ from Calvinism on that point. It says there is an effectual call, and a general, non-effectual call. It did appear that's what you were defending—an ineffectual word for those God has decided will not be allowed to be saved, and an effectual word for those God has decided will be allowed to be saved.

Guess it depends on how you define "effectual"

But you still have that nagging problem of Hebrews 6:4-6. Is soil #2 saved or unsaved soil? If you say unsaved then you must concede that unsaved people don't have to be regenerated to hear and understand the word. But if you say saved then you must concede that saved people can fall away and not believe any more. Which one do you want to go with? Because you can't have it both ways.

Not to be rude but are you actually reading my posts - perhaps you missed or didn't understand it?
Here, I'll cut and paste again:

"Regarding Hebrews 6:4-6, we've been through this before. I said then that I didn't think they represented
anyone in reality, but that they were being used by Paul as a hypothetical model in a "what if"
discussion to demonstrate an important aspect of salvation - that it cannot be lost.
I'm hoping that we won't need to go through it all over again as it took several days to do so the last time."

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes, and do you know what "chosen" and " holy and without blame" means?

People are chosen to be conformed to the image of Christ (Romans 8:28-29), not chosen to have faith.

 

[rogerg]

People are chosen to be conformed to the image of Christ (Romans 8:28-29), not chosen to have faith.

Did you read the verse I posted previously?
Certain people have been chosen by God to be holy and without blame before Him in love from the foundation of the world. The rest of the Bible are of the mechanisms that God used/uses to accomplish that.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Guess it depends on how you define "effectual"



Not to be rude but are you actually reading my posts - perhaps you missed or didn't understand it?
Here, I'll cut and paste again:

"Regarding Hebrews 6:4-6, we've been through this before. I said then that I didn't think they represented
anyone in reality, but that they were being used by Paul as a hypothetical model in a "what if"
discussion to demonstrate an important aspect of salvation - that it cannot be lost.
I'm hoping that we won't need to go through it all over again as it took several days to do so the last time."

I understood your point. There is no way an honest person can say Hebrews 6:4-6 is saying that the thing that is impossible for the enlightened person is to fall away. It's clearly saying that the thing that is impossible for the enlightened person is to be restored to repentance after falling away.

Hebrews 6:4-6
4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age— 6and then have fallen away—to be restored to repentance, because they themselves are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame.

 

[rogerg]

I understood your point. There is no way an honest person can say Hebrews 6:4-6 is saying that the thing that is impossible for the enlightened person is to fall away. It's clearly saying that the thing that is impossible for the enlightened person is to be restored to repentance after falling away.

"an honest person"? Really? Sayz you maybe. You come to your incorrect interpretations because you
don't follow the biblical rules it sets forth for its interpretation, and because you didn't follow them, you think those
who see it differently are lying. Interesting.
And with that, we're done

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Certain people have been chosen by God to be holy and without blame before Him in love from the foundation of the world.

Any and everybody who decides to have faith in God is chosen IN HIM on the basis of that faith. And the predetermined fate of the chosen is that they will be conformed to the image of Christ (Romans 8:28-29), holy and blameless. But Calvinism twists that around to mean a few people were chosen before the foundation of the world to have faith and be made holy and blameless.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"an honest person"? Really? Sayz you maybe. You come to your incorrect interpretations because you
don't follow the biblical rules it sets forth for its interpretation, and because you didn't follow them, you think those
who see it differently are lying. Interesting.
And with that, we're done

What kind of Biblical rule makes it so the plain grammar of the passage doesn't mean what it so plainly says, lol????? I'm sick of people telling me the Bible doesn't really mean what it says.

It's dishonest to look at Hebrews 6:4-6 and say the impossible thing to do is fall away, instead of what it actually says that it's impossible to be restored to repentance. No secret interpretations needed. It says it plainly. If it needs a special spiritual interpretation so it means something other than what it says then I don't need Christianity. Nobody does.

 

[rogerg]

Any and everybody who decides to have faith in God is then chosen IN HIM on the basis of that faith. And the predetermined fate of the chosen is that they will be conformed to the image of Christ (Romans 8:28-29), holy and blameless. But Calvinism twists that around to mean a few people were chosen before the foundation of the world to have faith and be made holy and blameless.

Funny how someone who can spot someone who is lying so quickly yet is willing to twist a verse into a doctrine that doesn't even remotely match it.
The verse I posted DOES NOT SAY THAT - not even close!

 

[rogerg]

What kind of Biblical rule makes it so the plain grammar of the passage doesn't mean what it so plainly says, lol?????

lol - for starters, this one. We've been through this before too. Not gonna do it again.

[2Pe 1:20 KJV] 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Funny how someone who can spot someone who is lying so quickly yet is willing to twist a verse into a doctrine that doesn't even remotely match it.
The verse I posted DOES NOT SAY THAT - not even close!

I would literally have to lie to myself to say the thing that is impossible in the passage is to fall away, rather than to be brought back to repentance. It's not a hard passage. No special interpretations are needed here. It plainly says the thing that is impossible is for the enlightened person to be brought back to repentance. You just have to decide if the enlightened person being spoken of is an enlightened unbeliever, or an enlightened believer, then you can decide whether you believe unsaved people can be enlightened, or that saved people can fall away. I'm telling you, man, Hebrews 6:4-6 RUINS reformed theology. RUINS it!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

lol - for starters, this one. We've been through this before too. Not gonna do it again.

[2Pe 1:20 KJV] 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

I could never tell myself that there is special spiritual revelation from God that makes a passage completely contradictory to what the words actually say.

 

[rogerg]

I would literally have to lie to myself to say the thing that is impossible in the passage is to fall away, rather than to be brought back to repentance. It's not a hard passage. No special interpretations are needed here. It plainly says the thing that is impossible is for the enlightened person to be brought back to repentance. You just have to decide if the enlightened person being spoken of is an enlightened unbeliever, or an enlightened believer, then you can decide whether you believe unsaved people can be enlightened, or that saved people can fall away. I'm telling you, man, Hebrews 6:4-6 RUINS reformed theology. RUINS it!

whatever...

 

[Jethro Bodine]

lol - for starters, this one. We've been through this before too. Not gonna do it again.

[2Pe 1:20 KJV] 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

You are using a private interpretation when you say the thing that is impossible is to fall away, rather than what it really does say, that it's impossible to be restored to repentance.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

whatever...

Yeah, whatever. Take it or leave it. We can read the plain words for ourselves. There's no mystery here. The thing that is impossible is to be restored to repentance. That's what it says. You just need to decide if the passage is talking about enlightened unbelievers, or enlightened believers. Then you'll know which reformist doctrine to cast away. Because you can't have, both, unbelievers not being able to be enlightened and believers falling away. You have to decide which one you'll go with. So, is the passage talking about believers or unbelievers? If you say, believers, then you must concede that born again saved people can fall away. And, worse, that they are not allowed to be restored to repentance.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

you think those
who see it differently are lying.

I wish you were just seeing it differently. But there's nothing to see differently. It plainly says what is impossible is for the enlightened person, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance.

 

[jasonc]

I'm not sure what you mean by the above.
My post was to rogerg
I do want to say that Calvin was not "just" a teacher.
He was one of the main characters in starting a new religion that began in 1,500AD.

This religion was not known before then.
They had come from a Christian faith and so they continued to believe they were Christian.
However, the ideas they had were heretical.
I'm referring to Luther, Calvin, Knox, Wittenberg and Zwingli and others.

It wasn't like Luther just upped and left ,no he was forced out .

I guess those works he listed that the Catholics required was Very biblical .

Ya know paying the father for indulgences,the wars and the pope etc.

Luther wasn't perfect but sorry I study the history of Florida well.

Upon sight the papists Spaniards ,caught and killed the peaceful pacifist hurguenuts who left Europa to the Americas.

Not that the protestants were better.but that event occured only a few decades after the schism.

Ft.caroline and the crown of England's break off from the pope.occured closely.

You can't say the papists didn't need reforming .

 

[jerry63935]

[2Pe 1:20 KJV] 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

and who does this apply to Calvinist or non Calvinist ? or both because what the discussion is about ---- interpretation

 

[Hopeful]

He chooses the time and place of when he gives the faith to believe.

Got a scripture for that idea?

That includes all who he knows in his omniscience will receive and retain the word of faith, and those who he knows will reject it. ALL are convicted by the Spirit of truth of the reality of the gospel. Most will choose to reject the faith God has given them to know the gospel is true. Only a few will cherish the word and keep it within them in believing.

It is written..."I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time." (1 Tim 2:1-6)
Jesus died for all men, having provided the ransom for all.
He has NOT hidden the knowledge of or faith in the redemption from anybody.

 

[Hopeful]

The only parameters I'm aware of is when and where he'll extend the power of faith to a person to know the gospel is true.

Scripture, please.

You'll have to ask someone who believes that God decides ahead of time who he will create a believer and who he will not. I do not subscribe to that theology.

You fooled me.

I just know he knows ahead of time who will of their own volition love the truth and be saved and who will not.

Scripture, please.