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CAN A REFORMED BELIEVER FALL AWAY FROM FAITH?

wondering said:
I'm not willing to say that these are the ELECT.
I think the elect are just those that choose God.

However, I do agree with you about those persons you mentioned.
Can't be any other way...
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Are not the elect, elected or chosen by God.
Clearly, we cannot elect ourselves from the foundation of the earth, only God can do that.
Anyway, let's leave it there.
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Jethro Bodine said:
The question is, what did he foreknow about these people. He foreknew who would respond to the gospel message and who would not. He's God. Why would he not know that, right?
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In His foreknowledge, the creator knew those he elected would fulfil the task allotted to them.
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wondering said:
Why does the IF necessarily mean that God planned it?

God's grace is for all. Some "see" God sooner and some later.
Why do you think it's GOD that makes us see?
I'm thinking of Romans 1:19
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God's does the calling and the choosing, not us. And so implicit in the fact that he does the calling and the choosing is that happens when and where he initiates it. But I understand what you mean when you say we choose him. We decide whether or not we're going to believe and receive the gospel when and where he reveals it to us through the word of faith, calling us to salvation.
 
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Cooper said:
In His foreknowledge, the creator knew those he elected would fulfil the task allotted to them.
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Well, that's the $64,000.00 question. But it's clear that before the foundation of the world God established His intention that those he chooses be conformed to the image of Jesus. Do all those who are chosen on the basis of their faith (not fate) have that plan completed in them? If they don't fall away it certainly will be. That's the plan.
 
wondering said:
I've always said that the reformation was necessary but very sadly so.

You cannot deny that calvinist theology did NOT exist in the church for 1,500 years.
Luther did not only FIX what the CC was doing wrong,
he started a new religion that did not look like the one before.

I don't trust new ideas...among these ideas is OSAS also. It just was non-existent before the reformation.

And as to calvinism, the new churches abandoned the idea of predestination because it goes against everything biblical. Christianity no longer accepts this theology (except for the reformed).
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It was quite new for a pope,Mary to be prayed too .

If our assurance is loosabkd as you imply well no one we know may actually be in heaven .

None of these debates are new.

Trinity,arian, gnostic,and the glossalia debate .
 
Cooper said:
Personally, I class myself as a whosoever. (Whosoever will come) I do not think for one second that I am one of the elect.
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The elect are chosen on the basis of their faith in God's promise of a Son. If you have faith in God's promise you are among the elect, the chosen. Technically, CHRIST is The Chosen One. We get attached to Him, The Chosen One, when we have faith in Him. That's what it means to be chosen IN HIM before the foundation of the world. He has always been The Chosen One, and always will be. We're just along for the ride by virtue of our faith, nothing else.
 
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Jethro Bodine said:
The elect are chosen on the basis of their faith in God's promise of a Son. If you have faith in God's promise you are among the elect, the chosen. Technically, CHRIST is The Chosen One. We get attached to Him, The Chosen One, when we have faith in Him. That's what it means to be chosen IN HIM before the foundation of the world. He has always been The Chosen One, and always will be. We're just along for the ride by virtue of our faith, nothing else.
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You are right when you say, "we are just along for the ride." We have not done anything, God's plan for us is to preach the Gospel and win souls for Him.

When we look at Moses, we can see the workings out of a wonderful and intricate plan, in the right place and at the right time. It could not have happened unless the creator had been behind it and planned it all out.
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Jethro Bodine said:
Hebrews 3:7-8
“Today, if you hear His voice, 8do not harden your hearts
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Hardly relevant.
The gospel is not hidden from anyone.
Men just have to believe it.
Jethro Bodine said:
It is according to God's will and discretion when and where he will sow the seed of the kingdom on a person's 'soil'.
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Your doctrine blames God for the failure of most to love Him with all their strength.
It is the righteous who disseminate the words that can convert others.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
Romans 8:29
29For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.

Foreknowledge, predestination, and election are all valid Biblical terms. The problem is people instantly think of Calvin's misunderstanding of these terms when they hear them. God does indeed know ahead of time who will choose to believe and who won't and the plans he has made ahead of time for those who believe.
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God does indeed know everything, but I won't confuse that with God picking out who will be converted and saved ahead of time.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
I don't know, I'm kind of tired of on line discussions. They aren't what they used to be. I'll just leave it at that, lol.
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I understand you L.
But I'll tell you this, if I don't keep this up I'm going to forget what little I know.
You're still a young'un, in a few years you might NEED to be here!
Think of those reading along...
 
wondering said:
If you're a WHOSOEVER, then you're an elect!
LOL
But this is just a word game...
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I'm thinking : -
1) The elect are already with the Lord.

2) Millions will rise to be with the Lord at the second coming.

3) There are goodness knows how many religions across the world, and according to Christianity, only those who have accepted Jesus as their saviour will have eternal life with Him. That cuts the numbers in heaven down dramatically.

Then there are these who Jesus never knew : -
Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Mat 7:21-23 KJV)

5) Then I remind myself of God’s plan of salvation for mankind.

Step 1: is to believe Jesus Christ is the eternal God, and the gift of our eternal salvation was gained by His vicarious resurrection thereby conquering Satan and death.

Step 2: The risen Christ, our advocate now pleads on our behalf. “So now, if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 1Jn 2:1., who is making intercession for us. Rom 8:34; Rom 11:2; Heb 7:25 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 1Ti 2:5

Step 3: Is the Judgement, when we shall have to answer for our own sins.
If at anytime we deny Christ or His finished work on the cross, our salvation is in peril,“Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father; everyone who confesses the Son has the Father also. 1Jn 2:22-23” for “it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, since on their own they are crucifying again the Son of God and are holding him up to contempt. (Heb 6:4-6)

Then there are those who wander astray:
Our Saviour, Jesus Christ the Good Shepherd will seek those who have wandered away from the fold, but the rebellious ones, who perhaps with the best of intentions, like the Galatians who went back to a work based salvation and the keeping of Old Testament festivals etc., so denying Christ’s redeeming work on the cross, will find their life with Jesus is finished. (Gal 5:4)

Finally, the Crown of Righteousness is not ours until we:
have fought the good fight, have finished the race, and have kept the faith. From now on there is reserved for us the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will give us on that day, and to all who have longed for his appearing. (2Ti 4:7-8)

After reading all of the above I wonder how many Calvinists, never mind all the other people in the world, Buddhists, Muslims etc. come anywhere near to entering heaven, and I ask myself, “what is it that makes people think they are more special than anyone else,” and I begin to think heaven will be very empty indeed.

And then I remember God loves, and died for the whole world and that He looks on the heart. Then I realise there is one thing that is common to all people regardless of race or creed, and perhaps it is these people in the scripture below WHO WILL ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN : -

For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward. (Mar 9:41 KJV)

May God bless the thoughts of an old man who has loved the Lord for many years.
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wondering said:
Thanks.
Good post.

The other member to whom I asked the question believes that AT A CERTAIN TIME God reveals Himself to a person and thus makes the person be able to decide for God or against God.

I was wondering why he believes this.
Do you believe God picks a specific time for us to be saved?
Or, I mean, to give us the opportunity.
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I don't believe God sets a specific time. I also don't pretend to know all the thoughts and plans that take place in the mind of God.

However in this case it seemed God waited for a opportune time. Its clear to me God chose her to know Christ Jesus. I also note she was already one who worshipped God.
One of those listening was a woman from the city of Thyatira named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth. She was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message.
 
Hopeful said:
Your doctrine blames God for the failure of most to love Him with all their strength.
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No, the blame for not believing the gospel ultimately lies with the individual themselves. I believe God is faithful to call the many. So there is no lack in God's responsibility to testify in the world to the truth and reality of the gospel of Jesus. It is incumbent on men to believe what God faithfully shows them to be true about the gospel.
 
Hopeful said:
It is the righteous who disseminate the words that can convert others.
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Not always...

Philippians 1:15-18
15It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16The latter do so in love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel.c 17The former, however, preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can add to the distress of my chains.

18What then is the issue?d Just this: that in every way, whether by false motives or true, Christ is preached.
 
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