CAN A REFORMED BELIEVER FALL AWAY FROM FAITH?

[Cooper]

Thanks, Cooper for providing those verses and I will ponder them further. I guess I was thinking about
Satan's wrath being manifested primarily by his blinding of humanity which blinding happens from birth, but you do raise a good point: that when someone becomes born-again and becomes vocal about the gospel, because of it, they start to experience bad things from him - things that they hadn't undergone prior to that - so thanks again.

Some of Satans henchmen.
Ten evil rulers:

1) Tomas de Torquemada- Born in Spain in 1420, his name is synonymous with the Christian Inquisition's horror, religious bigotry, and cruel fanaticism. He was a fan of various forms of torture including foot roasting, use of the garrucha, and suffocation. He was made Grand Inquisitor by Pope Sixtus IV. The number of burnings at the stake during Torquemada's tenure has been estimated at about 2,000. Torquemada's hatred of Jews influenced Ferdinand and Isabella to expel all Jews who had not embraced Christianity

2) Vlad Tepes - Vlad the Impaler was a prince known for executing his enemies by impalement. He was a fan of various forms of torture including disemboweling and rectal and facial impalement. Vlad the Impaler tortured thousands while he ate and drunk among the corpses. He impaled every person in the city of Amlas -- 20,000 men, women and children. Vlad often ordered people to be skinned, boiled, decapitated, blinded, strangled, hanged, burned, roasted, hacked, nailed, buried alive, stabbed, etc. He also liked to cut off noses, ears, sexual organs and limbs.

3) Adolf Hitler- The dictator of Nazi Germany, Adolf Hitler, was born on April 20, 1889. Think you know what he did. But he is considered a great leader...lol...other than killing all of those people.

4) Ivan the Terrible - was the grand prince of Moscow (1533-84) and the first to be proclaimed tsar of Russia (from 1547). He enjoyed burning 1000s of people in frying pans, and was fond of impaling people.

5) Adolph Eichmann - Born in March 19, 1906, Solingen, Germany he was hanged by the state of Israel for his part in the Nazi extermination of Jews during World War II. "The death of five million Jews on my conscience gives me extraordinary satisfaction."

6) Pol Pot - was the Khmer political leader whose totalitarian regime (1975-79) imposed severe hardships on the people of Cambodia. His radical communist government forced the mass evacuations of cities, killed or displaced millions of people, and left a legacy of disease and starvation. Under his leadership, his government caused the deaths of at least one million people from forced labor, starvation, disease, torture, or execution.

7) Mao Tse-tung- who killed somewhere between 20 and 67 million (estimates vary) of his countrymen, including the elderly and intellectuals. The resulting anarchy, terror, and paralysis completely disrupted the urban economy.

8) Idi Amin - was the military officer and president (1971-79) of Uganda. Reports indicate torture and murder of 100,000 to 300,000 Ugandans during Amin's presidency. In 1972, he began to expel Asians from Uganda.Over the years, Ugandans would disappear in the thousands, their mutilated bodies washing up on the shores of Lake Victoria. Amin would boast of being a "reluctant" cannibal - human flesh, he said, was too salty. He once ordered that the decapitation of political prisoners be broadcast on TV, specifying that the victims "must wear white to make it easy to see the blood".

9) Joseph Stalin - Born in 1879. The Soviet dictator Joseph Stalin probably exercised greater political power than any other figure in history. In the 1930s, by his orders, millions of peasants were either killed or permitted to starve to death. Stalin brought about the deaths of more than 20 million of his own people while holding the Soviet Union in an iron grip for 29 years.

10) Genghis Khan - The Mongol Temjin, known to history as Genghis Khan (born 1162) was a warrior and ruler who, starting from obscure and insignificant beginnings, brought all the nomadic tribes of Mongolia under the rule of himself and his family in a rigidly disciplined military state. Massacres of defeated populations, with the resultant terror, were weapons he regularly used. His Mongol hordes killed off countless people in Asia and Europe in the early 1200s. When attacking Volohoi, Khan convinced the city commander that Mongols would stop attacking if the city sent out 1,000 cats and several thousand swallows. When he got them, Genghis had bits of cloth tied to their tails and set the cloth on fire. The cats and birds fled back to the city and ended up setting hundreds of fires inside the city.
.

 

[Cooper]

If you read "Foxe's Book of Martyrs" you will see that Christians at the time of Jesus were killed in the most awful way, including the apostles.

Isaiah was cut in half with a saw.
.

 

[GodsGrace]

[Psa 58:3 KJV] 3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Right.

So is it from the womb,
or is it from satan putting a veil over someone's eyes?

And a reply to my post would be nice too.

Because the bible cannot have conflicts or it becomes unreliable.
Your theology causes conflict.

BTW, the wicked being estranged from the womb DOES NOT mean that a person cannot seek God and reply to Him when He reveals Himself.

It is not NECESSARY for God to choose whom He will for salvation in order for us to be saved.

We are perfectly capable of seeking God and when He reveals Himself to answer with a YES.

Romans 12:1-2
I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.

James 4:8
Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you.

Matthew 7:7-8 Jesus said
“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.

John 10:38 Jesus said
But if I do his work, believe in the evidence of the miraculous works I have done, even if you don’t believe me.

John 5:40 Jesus said
..and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life.


It would seem from the above verses, and many more, that man is perfectly capable of
Present himself as a living sacrifice
Draw near to God
Seek to find
Believe in Jesus and His miraculous works
Be willing to come to Jesus

 

[Hopeful]

That is absolutely true. You can't believe and trust in a Jesus that God has not given you the faith from which to do that believing. But you can reject faith and, therefore, not believe and trust in Jesus. That's the part you and a lot of people don't get.

You automatically equate the power to know something is true about the gospel with actually believing and trusting in it. Not true at all. Most people reject the gospel when God convicts them of the reality and truth of the gospel. There is no believing connected to the revelation of the gospel for them. They know the gospel is true, because God showed them it's true, but they turn away from it and reject the faith that God has given them to know it's true.

So much for my decision to believe.
If God only gives faith to a select number, how does He do the choosing?
Does He have parameters for who will receive faith?
Can I quit preaching the message to folks because the ones to be saved on the day of judgement are already lined up ahead of time?

God wants all men to come to Him, and so has put the message of eternal life out into the world for everyone to believe, or reject.
He isn't pre-damning 99% of the population.
Thanks be to God !

 

[rogerg]

Some of Satans henchmen.
Ten evil rulers:

1) Tomas de Torquemada- Born in Spain in 1420, his name is synonymous with the Christian Inquisition's horror, religious bigotry, and cruel fanaticism. He was a fan of various forms of torture including foot roasting, use of the garrucha, and suffocation. He was made Grand Inquisitor by Pope Sixtus IV. The number of burnings at the stake during Torquemada's tenure has been estimated at about 2,000. Torquemada's hatred of Jews influenced Ferdinand and Isabella to expel all Jews who had not embraced Christianity

2) Vlad Tepes - Vlad the Impaler was a prince known for executing his enemies by impalement. He was a fan of various forms of torture including disemboweling and rectal and facial impalement. Vlad the Impaler tortured thousands while he ate and drunk among the corpses. He impaled every person in the city of Amlas -- 20,000 men, women and children. Vlad often ordered people to be skinned, boiled, decapitated, blinded, strangled, hanged, burned, roasted, hacked, nailed, buried alive, stabbed, etc. He also liked to cut off noses, ears, sexual organs and limbs.

3) Adolf Hitler- The dictator of Nazi Germany, Adolf Hitler, was born on April 20, 1889. Think you know what he did. But he is considered a great leader...lol...other than killing all of those people.

4) Ivan the Terrible - was the grand prince of Moscow (1533-84) and the first to be proclaimed tsar of Russia (from 1547). He enjoyed burning 1000s of people in frying pans, and was fond of impaling people.

5) Adolph Eichmann - Born in March 19, 1906, Solingen, Germany he was hanged by the state of Israel for his part in the Nazi extermination of Jews during World War II. "The death of five million Jews on my conscience gives me extraordinary satisfaction."

6) Pol Pot - was the Khmer political leader whose totalitarian regime (1975-79) imposed severe hardships on the people of Cambodia. His radical communist government forced the mass evacuations of cities, killed or displaced millions of people, and left a legacy of disease and starvation. Under his leadership, his government caused the deaths of at least one million people from forced labor, starvation, disease, torture, or execution.

7) Mao Tse-tung- who killed somewhere between 20 and 67 million (estimates vary) of his countrymen, including the elderly and intellectuals. The resulting anarchy, terror, and paralysis completely disrupted the urban economy.

8) Idi Amin - was the military officer and president (1971-79) of Uganda. Reports indicate torture and murder of 100,000 to 300,000 Ugandans during Amin's presidency. In 1972, he began to expel Asians from Uganda.Over the years, Ugandans would disappear in the thousands, their mutilated bodies washing up on the shores of Lake Victoria. Amin would boast of being a "reluctant" cannibal - human flesh, he said, was too salty. He once ordered that the decapitation of political prisoners be broadcast on TV, specifying that the victims "must wear white to make it easy to see the blood".

9) Joseph Stalin - Born in 1879. The Soviet dictator Joseph Stalin probably exercised greater political power than any other figure in history. In the 1930s, by his orders, millions of peasants were either killed or permitted to starve to death. Stalin brought about the deaths of more than 20 million of his own people while holding the Soviet Union in an iron grip for 29 years.

10) Genghis Khan - The Mongol Temjin, known to history as Genghis Khan (born 1162) was a warrior and ruler who, starting from obscure and insignificant beginnings, brought all the nomadic tribes of Mongolia under the rule of himself and his family in a rigidly disciplined military state. Massacres of defeated populations, with the resultant terror, were weapons he regularly used. His Mongol hordes killed off countless people in Asia and Europe in the early 1200s. When attacking Volohoi, Khan convinced the city commander that Mongols would stop attacking if the city sent out 1,000 cats and several thousand swallows. When he got them, Genghis had bits of cloth tied to their tails and set the cloth on fire. The cats and birds fled back to the city and ended up setting hundreds of fires inside the city.
.

Good to know. I would also include they who bring violence (physical and other) to those who proclaim the gospel of Christ in order to try to restrict it, such as Saul did to the early church before his conversion

 

[rogerg]

So is it from the womb,
or is it from satan putting a veil over someone's eyes?

Both. Spiritual eyes from the womb, not physical eyes.

And a reply to my post would be nice too.

As long as you misrepresent my beliefs and from whence they originate, my replies to you will be minimal
if at all.

 

[GodsGrace]

I was meaning we should follow the teaching of Jesus and not make a religion from the words of men, like those in your list.
.

Amen to that!

 

[GodsGrace]

Both. Spiritual eyes from the womb, not physical eyes.


As long as you misrepresent my beliefs and from whence they originate, my replies to you will be minimal
if at all.

What did I misrepresent??

 

[GodsGrace]

Right.

So is it from the womb,
or is it from satan putting a veil over someone's eyes?

And a reply to my post would be nice too.

Because the bible cannot have conflicts or it becomes unreliable.
Your theology causes conflict.

BTW, the wicked being estranged from the womb DOES NOT mean that a person cannot seek God and reply to Him when He reveals Himself.

It is not NECESSARY for God to choose whom He will for salvation in order for us to be saved.

We are perfectly capable of seeking God and when He reveals Himself to answer with a YES.

Romans 12:1-2
I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.

James 4:8
Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you.

Matthew 7:7-8 Jesus said
“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.

John 10:38 Jesus said
But if I do his work, believe in the evidence of the miraculous works I have done, even if you don’t believe me.

John 5:40 Jesus said
..and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life.


It would seem from the above verses, and many more, that man is perfectly capable of
Present himself as a living sacrifice
Draw near to God
Seek to find
Believe in Jesus and His miraculous works
Be willing to come to Jesus

rogerg

If you don't care to discuss with me, that's fine.
But you say you don't belong to mainline Christianity by the very statements you make...
and you say you're not a calvinist but you surely state calvinist beliefs.

If your theology is so personal that a person cannot understand what you believe,
you can hardly blame them for what they think your theology is.

 

[Hopeful]

Good to know. I would also include they who bring violence (physical and other) to those who proclaim the gospel of Christ in order to try to restrict it, such as Saul did to the early church before his conversion

Add the abortionists to the list.

 

[jerry63935]

Right.

So is it from the womb,
or is it from satan putting a veil over someone's eyes?

And a reply to my post would be nice too.

Because the bible cannot have conflicts or it becomes unreliable.
Your theology causes conflict.

BTW, the wicked being estranged from the womb DOES NOT mean that a person cannot seek God and reply to Him when He reveals Himself.

It is not NECESSARY for God to choose whom He will for salvation in order for us to be saved.

We are perfectly capable of seeking God and when He reveals Himself to answer with a YES.

Romans 12:1-2
I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.

James 4:8
Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you.

Matthew 7:7-8 Jesus said
“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.

John 10:38 Jesus said
But if I do his work, believe in the evidence of the miraculous works I have done, even if you don’t believe me.

John 5:40 Jesus said
..and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life.


It would seem from the above verses, and many more, that man is perfectly capable of
Present himself as a living sacrifice
Draw near to God
Seek to find
Believe in Jesus and His miraculous works
Be willing to come to Jesus

your wasting your time

 

[Jethro Bodine]

As I said to you in a prior post, the hearing that brings one to faith in Christ
is the ability to comprehend (or hear) spiritually.

Just so we're clear, there is a difference between hearing and understanding. You have not been making this distinction. It does say there in Romans 10 that the problem was not that they didn't hear, but that they did not understand (Romans 10:19).

19I ask instead, did Israel not understand?

But the call was the call of faith, nonetheless (Romans 10:17-18). But they responded in unbelief and God turned them over to their unbelief and hardened theirs hearts and closed their eyes and ears so they couldn't hear and see, or else they would turn and he would heal them.

So you still have this problem. Your theology says only regenerate people are able to hear and understand. Yet, Hebrews 6:4-6 speaks of those who are enlightened but fall away. It doesn't matter if it's talking about unsaved, unregenerate people falling away, or if it's talking about saved, regenerated people falling away and not being allowed to come back to repentance. Your theology loses on both counts. That one passage forces you to decide between unsaved people being enlightened by the Spirit, or, saved people falling away. Which one do you want to go with? Which point in your theology do you want to give up in light of this very clear passage of scripture? I suggest you give up the contention that only regenerated people can be enlightened by the Spirit. That is the matter of the two that is easily discerned in scripture.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So, just by posting that they heard, is insufficient of itself to understand the intent of the verse.

Just so we're clear, it was still the word of faith that they heard. We learn from the Parable of the Sower that it is not the quality of the seed that determines if it is seeded in the soil (your theology says there are two kinds of qualities of word). It's the quality of the soil that determines if the word gets planted and flourishes. In the case of the Israelites, the word of faith they heard did not take root because of what kind of soil they were, not because God sent an inferior, less effectual word for them to hear.

 

[rogerg]

Just so we're clear, there is a difference between hearing and understanding. You have not been making this distinction. It does say there in Romans 10 that the problem was not that they didn't hear, but that they did not understand (Romans 10:19).

19I ask instead, did Israel not understand?

But the call was the call of faith, nonetheless (Romans 10:17-18). But they responded in unbelief and God turned them over to their unbelief and hardened theirs hearts and closed their eyes and ears so they couldn't hear and see, or else they would turn and he would heal them.

So you still have this problem. Your theology says only regenerate people are able to hear and understand. Yet, Hebrews 6:4-6 speaks of those who are enlightened but fall away. It doesn't matter if it's talking about unsaved, unregenerate people falling away, or if it's talking about saved, regenerated people falling away and not being allowed to come back to repentance. Your theology loses on both counts. That one passage forces you to decide between unsaved people being enlightened by the Spirit, or, saved people can fall away. Which one do you want to go with? Which point in your theology do you want to give up in light of this very clear passage of scripture? I suggest you give up the contention that only regenerated people can be enlightened by the Spirit. That is the matter of the two that is easily discerned in scripture.

Spiritual hearing is a part of spiritual understanding - one can't exist
without the other: it's a continuum.
Regarding Hebrews 6:4-6, we've been through this before. I said then that I didn't think they represented
anyone in reality, but that they were being used by Paul as a hypothetical model in a "what if"
discussion to demonstrate an important aspect of salvation - that it cannot be lost.
I'm hoping that we won't need to go through it all over again as it took several days to do so the last time.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So much for my decision to believe.
If God only gives faith to a select number, how does He do the choosing?

He chooses the time and place of when he gives the faith to believe. That includes all who he knows in his omniscience will receive and retain the word of faith, and those who he knows will reject it. ALL are convicted by the Spirit of truth of the reality of the gospel. Most will choose to reject the faith God has given them to know the gospel is true. Only a few will cherish the word and keep it within them in believing.

 

[rogerg]

Just so we're clear, it was still the word of faith that they heard. We learn from the Parable of the Sower that it is not the quality of the seed that determines if it is seeded in the soil (your theology says there are two kinds of qualities of word). It's the quality of the soil that determines if the word gets planted and flourishes. In the case of the Israelites, the word of faith they heard did not take root because of what kind of soil they were, not because God sent an inferior, less effectual word for them to hear.

No, my theology doesn't say that. It is the comprehension of the word, not a difference in the word.
I agree that it is the soil - but unless one has been given spiritual comprehension through the
Holy Spirit, then that soil will not be the good soil. Only those born-again were/are given the Holy Spirit
and therefore, are the good soil.

 

[rogerg]

He chooses the time and place of when he gives the faith to believe. That includes all who he knows in his omniscience will receive and retain the word of faith, and those who he knows will reject it. ALL are convicted by the Spirit of truth of the reality of the gospel. Most will choose to reject the faith God has given them to know the gospel is true. Only a few will cherish the word and keep it within them in believing.

[Eph 1:4 KJV]
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Does He have parameters for who will receive faith?

The only parameters I'm aware of is when and where he'll extend the power of faith to a person to know the gospel is true.

Can I quit preaching the message to folks because the ones to be saved on the day of judgement are already lined up ahead of time?

You'll have to ask someone who believes that God decides ahead of time who he will create a believer and who he will not. I do not subscribe to that theology. I just know he knows ahead of time who will of their own volition love the truth and be saved and who will not.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

[Eph 1:4 KJV]
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

"IN HIM."

Do you know what that means?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No, my theology doesn't say that. It is the comprehension of the word, not a difference in the word.
I agree that it is the soil...

Then you definitely differ from Calvinism on that point. It says there is an effectual call, and a general, non-effectual call. It did appear that's what you were defending—an ineffectual word for those God has decided will not be allowed to be saved, and an effectual word for those God has decided will be allowed to be saved.

- but unless one has been given spiritual comprehension through the
Holy Spirit, then that soil will not be the good soil. Only those born-again were/are given the Holy Spirit
and therefore, are the good soil.

But you still have that nagging problem of Hebrews 6:4-6. Is soil #2 saved or unsaved soil? If you say unsaved then you must concede that unsaved people don't have to be regenerated to hear and understand the word. But if you say saved then you must concede that saved people can fall away and not believe any more. Which one do you want to go with? Because you can't have it both ways.