CAN A REFORMED BELIEVER FALL AWAY FROM FAITH?

[gordon777]

The elect are chosen by God...correct.
But based on whether or not the WANT to be a part of God's family.
God knew who would want to be with Him...
and chose them.
But we also choose...

It is very simple, the way is told.

Some are planted by God, some are not, and even though favor is shown to the wicked, they wont learn righteousness.

IT is easy again to know, that what is planted as wheat grows as the same, and what is tares, stays tares.

One planting is by God, and one is by the devil.




Isaiah 26:10 Let favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the Lord.

Isaiah 61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified.




John 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:


Matthew 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

 

[gordon777]

If grace is dependent upon the submitting of themselves to God, or for that matter of having to do anything for it, then it can't be grace. Those are mutually exclusive to each other: grace stands alone and is fully complete within itself -
where it exists, nothing else can.

Grace is mercy from Christ. His mercy is to die for us, because without His sacrifice, we die in our sin, of unbelief, in His righteousness. ( His necessity to sacrifice Himself for us, to save us from death.)

That is why and how we have many verses of scripture, all showing the right way to follow, lots of instructions, and many many requirements, regarding healing, as we cannot rely on ourselves just attending a doctor and being healed, but the Holy scriptures are what heals our hearts, ( from an evil conscience. Hebrews 10:22.) to be healed with holiness. To not believe all of this, that is told, is also as told, to fail of the grace of God.



Hebrews 12:13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.



Continuing, we are come to the spirits of just men made perfect, which is to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and His blood of sprinkling, that speaks better than Abel ( more life.) and we are to see that we do not refuse and tuen away from Him ( Christ) that speaks from heaven...




Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

 

[GodsGrace]

It is very simple, the way is told.

Some are planted by God, some are not, and even though favor is shown to the wicked, they wont learn righteousness.

IT is easy again to know, that what is planted as wheat grows as the same, and what is tares, stays tares.

One planting is by God, and one is by the devil.




Isaiah 26:10 Let favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the Lord.

Isaiah 61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified.




John 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:


Matthew 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

Your post has left me feeling very sad.
I don't feel called to reply to your actual post but just to say how sad it is that Jesus died such a horrible death and for what?

Seems that it should have been to give mankind hope, instead some believe it was for naught.
It gives sinners nothing but pain to think they can't turn to God for help.

 

[gordon777]

Your post has left me feeling very sad.
I don't feel called to reply to your actual post but just to say how sad it is that Jesus died such a horrible death and for what?

Seems that it should have been to give mankind hope, instead some believe it was for naught.
It gives sinners nothing but pain to think they can't turn to God for help.

It is the wicked who do not learn righteousness.

If anyone turns from sin, to God, from darkness to light, they receive forgiveness and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith which is in Christ.




Acts 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.







The wicked consider they can continue to do wickedly, and want to receive the reward of unrighteousness, they ( as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed) speak evil of what they do not understand ( do not believe in)

Having eyes full of adultery and that cannot ceas3e from sin, beguiling and unstable souls, it is heir heart they have exercised with covetous practises, cursed children.



2 Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.




2 Peter 2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

 

[gordon777]

Now there is hope, that all who do turn from the right way, and who do all their evil in the name of Christ, and who speak against God every day, and in every word they say, will be given what they seek for, their own place.

Judas the son of perdition goes to his own place, as does the man of sin ( the devil and all he is in) as the fire is reserved against the day of judgement and perdition of ungodly men. ( who go to their own place, where they desire, to unholiness, to lies, to darkness, and never light.




Psalm 49:19 He shall go to the generation of his fathers; they shall never see light.


Acts 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.





All is to be dissolved, and we ought to be in all holy conversation and godliness ( to not be men of perdition to be cut off in unrighteousness) so we look for new heavens and a new earth where righteousness dwells, which never had unrighteous men in it, and we look diligently to be found of Christ in peace, without spot and blameless....




2 Peter 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

 

[gordon777]

The forum is perfect example of men of perdition, who are wells without water, who constantly speak great swelling words of vanity, alluring everybody they can through the lust of the flesh ( through selfishness, coveting, through pride, through deceit.) to believe in unrighteousness, to be the world ready for destruction, only filled entirely with those men of perdition.

This forum and other forums have had lots of testimony, to present lots of exhortation, rebuke, warnings, reasonings, to change vain talking, and to go instead and begin to love in deed, not word, which is uncontrolled and encouraged to be in debates, and disputes, which is more ungodliness. I don't know if what I shared in my time had any purpose, but I would not want to join in with the example of being swift to speak and slow to hear, to not bridle our tongues..





James 1:19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.
21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

James 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.



James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

 

[rogerg]

Grace is mercy from Christ. His mercy is to die for us, because without His sacrifice, we die in our sin, of unbelief, in His righteousness. ( His necessity to sacrifice Himself for us, to save us from death.)

That is why and how we have many verses of scripture, all showing the right way to follow, lots of instructions, and many many requirements, regarding healing, as we cannot rely on ourselves just attending a doctor and being healed, but the Holy scriptures are what heals our hearts, ( from an evil conscience. Hebrews 10:22.) to be healed with holiness. To not believe all of this, that is told, is also as told, to fail of the grace of God.

So, are you saying you believe that Christ is the Saviour, or not?

 

[GodsGrace]

do you know what apostolic doctrine is?

I don't know.

I know about the Apostolic Fathers that learned from the Apostles.

I have a feeling you mean something different.

 

[GodsGrace]

And it's God who causes them to be at the bottom of the barrel where he will then present the gospel to them.

If God is causing something, then He would have had to know He was going to cause it from the beginning of time.
If God did something more than just KNOW something, but actually cause it - then you're wandering into reformed territory.

This does not mean that I don't believe that God did determine that actions of some persons, or, at the very least, set up time and events so as to fulfill His wish...for instance Judas, or Mary.

But if you go ahead and place EVERY person in this time, event causation, then it is calvinistic.

John Calvin stated that predestination means EVERY PERSON is predestined...not just some.
And I don't believe God wishes us to be at the bottom of the barrel.

If you mean that He USES the time, event experience for His purposes, then I could agree.

Romans 8:20-21
20For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

Romans 8:18-22
18Yet what we suffer now is nothing compared to the glory he will reveal to us later.
19For all creation is waiting eagerly for that future day when God will reveal who his children really are.
20Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse. But with eager hope,
21the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God’s children in glorious freedom from death and decay. 22For we know that all creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.

God did not subject nature to death - this was done by Adam.
When Adam fell he brought the death of his action to
himself
others
nature
and caused separation between him and God.

Against its will all creation was subjected to God's curse.
This refers to Genesis and the curses.
It's these curses that God also placed on man.
Everything was affected by the fall.

 

[GodsGrace]

I assume she was a Jew. Paul was preaching about Christ Jesus which is something new to her just as in serving/worshipping God in the new way of the Spirit as opposed to the old way of the written code.

God opened her heart to respond to Paul's message. And she became a believer.

When she and the members of her household were baptized, she invited us to her home. “If you consider me a believer in the Lord,” she said, “come and stay at my house.” And she persuaded us.

I agree.
A person may believe in God and be saved,
but when they're presented with Jesus, who IS GOD,
they must make a decision to follow Him.

 

[GodsGrace]

New apostolic revival .Paula white holds this doctrine these teach the office of the apostles is still active ,and also are post mil and believe in Dominionism .women can be apostles and also are hyper charismatic .

The Apostles have all died.
I'd say that their teachings were passed on...
Until they got corrupted (which did happen).

 

[GodsGrace]

Pre-Jesus worshippers of God would learn of...
The death of Christ to pay for our past sins.
His resurrection from the dead because He lived without sinning.
The death of our old man and rebirth from the seed of God.
The promise of eternal life.
More too.

OK
Yes. Agreed.
Thanks for explaining.

 

[Cooper]

It is very simple, the way is told.

Some are planted by God, some are not, and even though favor is shown to the wicked, they wont learn righteousness.

IT is easy again to know, that what is planted as wheat grows as the same, and what is tares, stays tares.

One planting is by God, and one is by the devil.




Isaiah 26:10 Let favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the Lord.

Isaiah 61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified.




John 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:


Matthew 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

There is only one sower in the parable.
The soil is our heart.
Some people have good hearts and receive the seed gladly, others have hearts of stone and the seed dies.
.

 

[GodsGrace]

They were looking for the coming of the Mighty King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and they were disappointed when he was born in a stable to a carpenter's son despite the heavenly chorus. They believed in an earthly kingdom and are ready and waiting for the opportunity to take over the world, Russia is not on its own in this, but all to no avail, for man is mortal and Jesus is eternal. But the short sighted can only see as far as tomorrow. Meanwhile, the whole world suffers, but in the meantime, Jesus bids us come to him.
.

Agreed.

 

[GodsGrace]

It is very simple, the way is told.

Some are planted by God, some are not, and even though favor is shown to the wicked, they wont learn righteousness.

IT is easy again to know, that what is planted as wheat grows as the same, and what is tares, stays tares.

One planting is by God, and one is by the devil.




Isaiah 26:10 Let favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the Lord.

Isaiah 61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified.




John 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

How does one get to be a sheep of the Lord?
Those that are not of the Lord to not care what He commands.
Only His sheep hear His voice.

In John 10:25 Jesus told the religious leaders asking who He was and Jesus replied that He told them but they didn't believe.

It seems to me that it was the free will choice of the leaders to deny the words of Jesus.
If Jesus knew about predestination, why would their unbelief surprise Him?

Matthew 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

Seems as though the above would be contrary to
Matthew 25 when Jesus tells of how what we do to others is the same as doing the action to Him.
And those that did good went into eternal life and those that refused to help the needy will go into eternal punishment.

This sounds like it's up to us to decide where we want to spend eternity.
Did God Father forget to tell God Son something?

The bible cannot contradict itself.
How would you reconcile the two ideas?

 

[GodsGrace]

It is the wicked who do not learn righteousness.

If anyone turns from sin, to God, from darkness to light, they receive forgiveness and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith which is in Christ.




Acts 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.







The wicked consider they can continue to do wickedly, and want to receive the reward of unrighteousness, they ( as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed) speak evil of what they do not understand ( do not believe in)

Having eyes full of adultery and that cannot ceas3e from sin, beguiling and unstable souls, it is heir heart they have exercised with covetous practises, cursed children.



2 Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.




2 Peter 2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

The above is just proof to me that one could forfeit their salvation.
Otherwise it's speaking about evil persons.
I don't really read anything else into it.

 

[GodsGrace]

So, are you saying you believe that Christ is the Saviour, or not?

Who else could be the savior Roger?

 

[gordon777]

There is only one sower in the parable.
The soil is our heart.
Some people have good hearts and receive the seed gladly, others have hearts of stone and the seed dies.
.

The devil has sown what goes to the wicked.


Matthew 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.



None have good hearts, God takes the stony heart away, by not being sown on stony ground, its really quite simple as told even...



Ezekiel 11:19
And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:


Mark 4:15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.
18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,
19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.




Good ground is when no sowing is done in that stony heart, or it would accomplish nothing. That is why Christ takes that stony heart away and gives a heart of flesh, takes the old spirit away to give a new Spirit and new heart of belief and understanding.

 

[gordon777]

It seems to me that it was the free will choice of the leaders to deny the words of Jesus.
If Jesus knew about predestination, why would their unbelief surprise Him?

Because witnessing hard hearts in front of you, is not easy to witness, it is always a surprise though you know all things.



Mark 3:5 And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other.

Matthew 13:58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

 

[gordon777]

Seems as though the above would be contrary to
Matthew 25 when Jesus tells of how what we do to others is the same as doing the action to Him.
And those that did good went into eternal life and those that refused to help the needy will go into eternal punishment.

This sounds like it's up to us to decide where we want to spend eternity.
Did God Father forget to tell God Son something?

The bible cannot contradict itself.
How would you reconcile the two ideas?

Yes it is up to us where we want to spend eternity, to believe in God or to believe in the devil.

But,, it is not easy to hear God, as the devil is the god of this world, nor is it easy to hear Gods teachers, as the devil has this world filled with his teachers instead.

That is why it is a narrow way that few find, as not only the way few find is so hidden,, but the wide way to destruction is approved of by all false ministers and by just about everyone.



Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.


2 Timothy 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;