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CAN A REFORMED BELIEVER FALL AWAY FROM FAITH?

Hopeful said:
Your analogy, simile, doesn't work, as it is God who does both the saving and the condemning.
If, as that doctrine opines, God gives salvation to some, the rest perish because He did not give them salvation.
I find that cruel, and not of God.
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Don't think so. Not giving salvation is not the equivalent of being unfair.
Condemnation came as a result or assessment of something they were guilty of -
it is the judgment of it, not its cause- its outcome or just result - different things.
As Christ had to suffer to bring forth salvation, it was therefore His divine prerogative to give it to whomever He had
chosen for it. Would it be less "cruel" or fairer of God for Him to let people perish even those who had not been exposed to, or capable of comprehending the gospel due to random chance or of no fault of their own (according to your perception salvation - that it is up to each to come to faith first of themselves)?

Hopeful said:
I can't agree.
Even a birthday gift must be opened by the recipient.
We have to hear, believe, turn from sin, and get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
Not to mention remain faithful till the end of our lives.
My "contribution" proves my faith.
God won't save someone who ignores Him and His apostles.
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"opened"? Salvation is not a gift to be opened. That is using the temporal to measure
and comprehend the eternal - the two are incomparable.
Not if spiritual hearing, seeing, believing are parts of the gift.
In addition to seeing, hearing, etc., faith is also a part of the gift.
Everyone whom God saves ignored Him (and worse) right up until becoming saved - look at Saul
and his actions, his intents right up to the instant of becoming saved.
It is only by His choice, mercy and grace that someone is saved and by nothing that we may do.
If given, all parts of the gift are free

[Rom 5:15-16, 18 KJV]
15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification. ...
18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.

Hopeful said:
Grace reigns by righteousness, (Rom 5:21), and without righteousness there is no grace.
Can you be a man of God without acting like a man of God?
Grace is a gift we must put into action, or it dies.
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Think you missed the end of 5:21- it is "by Jesus Christ our Lord". IOW, grace and righteousness are by Christ,
not by us.

[Rom 5:21 KJV] 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Hopeful said:
Nope.
Submission will be the fruit of healing.
Will the healed reject God?
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And hearing being the fruit of being born again, and being born again the
fruit of salvation.

Hopeful said:
Will the healed then reject God, or torment his brother?
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Don't follow your point.

Hopeful said:
It doesn't apply, as those seeking God are fully conscious.
If they are not seeking God, He won't give them anything.
Remember..."Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:" (Matt 7:7)
Ask, seek, knock: then it shall be opened unto you.
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No, not fully spiritually conscious, not spiritually conscious at all. Until being saved, dead in sin. Death is oblivion. One has to be made spiritually alive before being able to comprehend they had been spiritually dead and
given spiritual life. Notice the "by grace ye are saved" - grace GIVEN to those who were dead - they did nothing for it.
In Matt 7:7, He is addressing the brethren - those chosen. We know this because in the preceding verses Jesus
uses the word "brother". From Christ's perspective, only the elect (not everyone) are His brothers.

[Eph 2:1, 5 KJV]
1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins; ...
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
[Col 2:13 KJV]
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Hopeful said:
Though it isn't written about, don't you think the lame man had the faith to be healed when Jesus said "Stretch forth thine hand." (Matt 12:13)
He must have, as he did stretch out his hand.
His faith was manifested by obedience.
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Yes, but faith itself is given as a gift as a fruit of the Spirit from becoming born again.
True faith is not of ourselves.

[Gal 5:22 KJV]
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
 
rogerg said:
(according to your perception salvation - that it is up to each to come to faith first of themselves)?
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No, you are misrepresenting the argument. God does the calling. He take the initiative in drawing all men to himself. And God gives the faith through which one believes and trusts in the gospel and is saved. The only thing up to you or I is if we're going to accept or reject that which God himself makes possible.
 
Cooper said:
We may be a child of God predestined for adoption, a sinner saved by grace, but that doesn't make us one of the elect, His will to do.
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Sorry, I don't follow. There are only two categories, or groups of people that I'm aware of (individually and collectively): 1) those who were elected to salvation, and 2) those who were not elected to salvation. I know of no third group.

[Mat 24:31 KJV]
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
[Rom 8:33 KJV]
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? [It is] God that justifieth.

[1Pe 1:2-5 KJV]
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
 
rogerg said:
Yes, but faith itself is given as a gift as a fruit of the Spirit from becoming born again.
True faith is not of ourselves.
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Let's use your own Calvinistic theology to show you that you don't have to have the Holy Spirit in salvation to experience the fruit of the Holy Spirit outside of salvation. In the Parable of the Sower the 2nd kind of person believed, having received the word with JOY. Calvinists say this person was not saved (because they fell away showing themselves to have not really believed). And yet they had the joy of the Spirit in the receiving of the word.

And so it is with faith. Faith (the proof of things not seen) is surely from God, not us. But God gives the revelation of things you can not see or know or believe on your own prior to you accepting them. I mean, come on, how does God expect anyone to believe and trust in something he doesn't first show and prove to you is true!? That's what the call of God is!

And just for the matter of discussion, the 'faith' that is being spoken about in the fruit of the Spirit is more accurately understood as 'faithfulness', not the gift of faith to know the gospel is true. But as I'm showing you, we have right in Calvinistic theology itself an example of a person who really isn't saved experiencing the presence and power of the Holy Spirit. That ruins your argument that you have to be saved first to experience the faith God gives by the Holy Spirit.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
God causes lots of things to happen. That's not the definition of Calvinism. In Calvinism, God purposely causes a person to be a believer, with no consideration of what they might actually choose if given the choice. I say God purposely gives us the choice by carefully controlling our circumstances. Even driving us to the choice. We are like metals being tested in the furnace of affliction. Some of us will come forth as pure gold, some not so much.
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I have to disagree.

This is what Calvin taught about predestination: (you might want to read it all)

By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death. This God has testified, not only in the case of single individuals;

source:
Institutes of the Christian Religion
John Calvin
Book 3
Chapter 21
Paragraph 5
 
wondering said:
I have to disagree.

This is what Calvin taught about predestination: (you might want to read it all)

By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death. This God has testified, not only in the case of single individuals;

source:
Institutes of the Christian Religion
John Calvin
Book 3
Chapter 21
Paragraph 5
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I have understood all along that this is what Calvinism teaches. I disagree with it. I guess I'll have to explain how what I said in no way supports this.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
I have understood all along that this is what Calvinism teaches. I disagree with it. I guess I'll have to explain how what I said in no way supports this.
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You disagree with what Calvin taught about predestination?
There are these slight nuances in Christian-speak that sometimes are difficult to explain.
Whether you're able to or not is almost irrelevant IMHO.
What I'd do instead is try to keep away from Calvinist territory.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
Yes. What predestination meant to him I disagree with.

There are things that God has predetermined. What Calvin said is predetermined by God is one of those things I disagree with.
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But how could anyone of us know what God has predetermined?
For instance, I believe God knew that Mary would say YES.
Did He predestine this or did He use her because she was the right one?
I think these are questions way beyond our capabilities.
But I can't believe that God predestined WHEN we would acknowledge Him or respond to Him.
I said that most persons come to know God when they're deep down in the barrel.
So do you believe God puts us there just so we could get to know Him?
I can't believe that.
 
wondering said:
But how could anyone of us know what God has predetermined?
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Because he plainly told us what he has predestined.

Romans 8:29
29For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son

He already knows ahead of time who will believe and who won't believe, and the destiny of those who will believe is that they be conformed to the image of Christ. It has been determined ahead of time that that's what's going to happen to those chosen/elected by grace through faith, not works.
 
wondering said:
But how could anyone of us know what God has predetermined?
For instance, I believe God knew that Mary would say YES.
Did He predestine this or did He use her because she was the right one?
I think these are questions way beyond our capabilities.
But I can't believe that God predestined WHEN we would acknowledge Him or respond to Him.
I said that most persons come to know God when they're deep down in the barrel.
So do you believe God puts us there just so we could get to know Him?
I can't believe that.
[/QUOTE

In short if you don't die from a fire or any thing that despite man's best effort to save you or kill you.whom do you thank?

Satan or God .
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Jethro Bodine said:
Because he plainly told us what he has predestined.

Romans 8:29
29For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son

He already knows ahead of time who will believe and who won't believe, and the destiny of those who will believe is that they be conformed to the image of Christ. It has been determined ahead of time that that's what's going to happen to those chosen/elected by grace through faith, not works.
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I agree of course.
I was referring to the fact that you believe God picks the place and time of our salvation.
 
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