CAN A REFORMED BELIEVER FALL AWAY FROM FAITH?

[gordon777]

The above is just proof to me that one could forfeit their salvation.
Otherwise it's speaking about evil persons.
I don't really read anything else into it.

It is the deception and purpose of the devils existence, so that all the world is deceived, and it is the way it is.



Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

 

[Cooper]

The devil has sown what goes to the wicked.


Matthew 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.



None have good hearts, God takes the stony heart away, by not being sown on stony ground, its really quite simple as told even...



Ezekiel 11:19
And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:


Mark 4:15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.
18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,
19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.




Good ground is when no sowing is done in that stony heart, or it would accomplish nothing. That is why Christ takes that stony heart away and gives a heart of flesh, takes the old spirit away to give a new Spirit and new heart of belief and understanding.

I was reading the parable of the sower.
The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side. And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore. And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow; And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up: Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth: And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away. And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them: But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
(Mat 13:1-9 KJV)

You were talking about The Parable of the Weeds in Matthew 13:36.
This is how arguments start.
OK then. Not to worry. I haven't the time now, but there must be a lesson that can be learned from both parables.
.

 

[gordon777]

I was reading the parable of the sower.
The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side. And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore. And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow; And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up: Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth: And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away. And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them: But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
(Mat 13:1-9 KJV)

You were talking about The Parable of the Weeds in Matthew 13:36.
This is how arguments start.
OK then. Not to worry. I haven't the time now, but there must be a lesson that can be learned from both parables.
.

There are two sowers, as there is God and there is the devil, there is light and there is darkness, there is hard hearts of stone, and hearts of flesh, there is a spirit of error, and the Spirit of truth, and all parables speak of the Kingdom of God and its righteousness. Then the devils words are the kingdoms of this world, and just looking around tells us who is sowing what, the devil is the god of this world and sows as he pleases, and has all the workers in the world to make sure that plenty tares/weeds grow, and that when the Son of man sows, and it goes in to stony ground, that is the stony heart of man, which rejects the seed sown by the Son of God, but has instead only place for the devil to sow his seed into their hearts, just put it all together would be sensible if anyone can do this simple thing, and see what is shown for us now.



Matthew 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

 

[gordon777]

This is the devil sowing after Christ has sown, as the word sown to all the world is rejected and then something needs to be sown into them to make them grow weeds..


2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes it is up to us where we want to spend eternity, to believe in God or to believe in the devil.

But,, it is not easy to hear God, as the devil is the god of this world, nor is it easy to hear Gods teachers, as the devil has this world filled with his teachers instead.

That is why it is a narrow way that few find, as not only the way few find is so hidden,, but the wide way to destruction is approved of by all false ministers and by just about everyone.



Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.


2 Timothy 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

I agree with the above.

 

[GodsGrace]

It is the deception and purpose of the devils existence, so that all the world is deceived, and it is the way it is.



Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

I agree with this too.

 

[Cooper]

Back to the thread, “CAN A REFORMED BELIEVER FALL AWAY FROM FAITH?”

Romans 8:28-29 tells us, “We know that for those who love God all things work together for good, to those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.”

I know a few, but not many, who work according to God’s purpose and are conformed to the image of his Son. They are so strong in the faith, I doubt they will ever fall away. But how many do we know who are called "according to his purpose and are conformed to the image of his Son."

There aren't many like that. The Calvinists I speak to on the internet, seem to think they can do as they like and still be saved. That is not what scripture says.
.

 

[Cooper]

Just to add, those who are called and who conform to the image of his Son, are the ones I call the elect of God.
.

 

[rogerg]

ust to add, those who are called and who conform to the image of his Son, are the ones I call the elect of God.

That would include everyone whom God had chosen to salvation - to receive God's grace and be saved by Him is what one is elected to - God's work, not ours.

[Eph 1:4-5 KJV]
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

[Rom 11:5 KJV] 5
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

 

[Hopeful]

Well, for example, if someone had something taken away by someone, and someone else replaces it,
was the one who replaced it responsible for it being taken away just because he replaced it?

Your analogy, simile, doesn't work, as it is God who does both the saving and the condemning.
If, as that doctrine opines, God gives salvation to some, the rest perish because He did not give them salvation.
I find that cruel, and not of God.

That's not how I read those verses. As far as I can tell, they in no way permit any contribution from those who receive salvation - just the opposite in fact- that God does it all because He is a merciful and gracious God unto those
who do not deserve it: "not of yourselves", and "according to his mercy he saved us" - does not leave any room
for anyone doing anything in achieving it besides God.

I can't agree.
Even a birthday gift must be opened by the recipient.
We have to hear, believe, turn from sin, and get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
Not to mention remain faithful till the end of our lives.
My "contribution" proves my faith.
God won't save someone who ignores Him and His apostles.

If grace is dependent upon the submitting of themselves to God, or for that matter of having to do anything for it, then it can't be grace. Those are mutually exclusive to each other: grace stands alone and is fully complete within itself -
where it exists, nothing else can.

Grace reigns by righteousness, (Rom 5:21), and without righteousness there is no grace.
Can you be a man of God without acting like a man of God?
Grace is a gift we must put into action, or it dies.

Should the healing of someone by God from enslavement, blindness and spiritual death be considered as the forcing of submission?

Nope.
Submission will be the fruit of healing.
Will the healed reject God?

In fact, I would say just the opposite is true- that those healed, finally, for the first time in their lives, have become alive and are able to see clearly or would it be better to be left blind?

Will the healed then reject God, or torment his brother?

For example, let's say someone is bitten by a venomous snake and they become completely comatose, oblivious, near unto death, and unable to help themselves. Should someone happen by with anti-venom, administers it, and brings the person back to life and to complete health, by that, did he do something good or bad? Should he have not done so and without which he would have died? Should the doing of it be considered as the forcing of life upon someone?
Was it unfair for the man to lift the sheep out of the pit?

It doesn't apply, as those seeking God are fully conscious.
If they are not seeking God, He won't give them anything.
Remember..."Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:" (Matt 7:7)
Ask, seek, knock: then it shall be opened unto you.

[Mat 12:10-12 KJV]
10 And, behold, there was a man which had [his] hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.
11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift [it] out?
12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

Though it isn't written about, don't you think the lame man had the faith to be healed when Jesus said "Stretch forth thine hand." (Matt 12:13)
He must have, as he did stretch out his hand.
His faith was manifested by obedience.

 

[Hopeful]

Just to add, those who are called and who conform to the image of his Son, are the ones I call the elect of God.
.

And if they don't conform?

 

[Cooper]

And if they don't conform?

Then like me, they would be one of the five thousand being fed with bread and fish by the elect.
.

 

[Cooper]

That would include everyone whom God had chosen to salvation - to receive God's grace and be saved by Him is what one is elected to - God's work, not ours.

[Eph 1:4-5 KJV]
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

[Rom 11:5 KJV] 5
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

We may be a child of God predestined for adoption, a sinner saved by grace, but that doesn't make us one of the elect, His will to do.
.

 

[gordon777]

The topic of course is irrelevant, without knowing what faith is, in these last times.

Faith has always been belief in Jesus Christ, being our Lord and risen. Through that assured faith, men gave up their lives here on this earth, to be with Christ for ever, who also gave up HIs life, firstly having nowhere to lay HIs head, then His life taken away so He can give HIs blood and body for us, as this is what we live by, and by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God, which teaches and confirms this.

But now, everything has changed, instead of men being given by God, to love Him, to love others, men love themself, as love has gone cold. Instead of loving by deed and truth, there is only conversation, and nothng more, and also vain conversation, showing instead of no self seeking, only what people seek now, love for their own selves, and consideration not for others, but entirely for them, proving Gods word, and they have nothing to sway about it, as they are fulfilling it with every single word they can share on this forum and every other. Also if they wish to deny that, they wont be able to as the scriptures are not going to be on their side.





Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

2 Timothy 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

2 Timothy 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[gordon777]

Cooper if you approve of anything I wrote, we do not be a lover of our own selves, and we do not love our lives until the death, as anyone who loves their life will lose it, and they who hate their life in this world will keep it unto life eternal, through loosing their life, and all they have as Christ, the Apostles and all believers in Christ and the Apostles did.

On top of that love is not in word, or tongue, but in deed only, the forums are not love, but are practice grounds to be vanity. It is clear, all who remain, cant say anything right, as their actions show no belief in Gods words right away by doing so.



Matthew 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

2 Timothy 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,



Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.



Mark 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

John 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.






1 John 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.



2 Peter 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

Jude 1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

 

[Cooper]

Cooper if you approve of anything I wrote, we do not be a lover of our own selves, and we do not love our lives until the death, as anyone who loves their life will lose it, and they who hate their life in this world will keep it unto life eternal, through loosing their life, and all they have as Christ, the Apostles and all believers in Christ and the Apostles did.

On top of that love is not in word, or tongue, but in deed only, the forums are not love, but are practice grounds to be vanity. It is clear, all who remain, cant say anything right, as their actions show no belief in Gods words right away by doing so.



Matthew 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

2 Timothy 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,



Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.



Mark 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

John 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.






1 John 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.



2 Peter 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

Jude 1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

Love God, not self or the things of earth.
.

 

[Randy]

That would include everyone whom God had chosen to salvation - to receive God's grace and be saved by Him is what one is elected to - God's work, not ours.

[Eph 1:4-5 KJV]
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

[Rom 11:5 KJV] 5
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

In regard to Romans 11- Clearly a problem with a obstinate and rebellious people. Result - God sent salvation to the gentiles who will listen. Nothing to do with prechosen but with Gods promises being fulfilled.
God reserved 7000 for Himself for the sake of His own name so that His promises would not fail. No such promises exist for the gentiles. Only in Christ are we seen as the offspring of Abraham and heirs according to the promise.
The plan of salvation existed before the world began. With Christ Jesus at the center and those redeemed to be conformed to His likeness by the will of God. Hence chosen in Him...Nothing to do with us in this day as having been prechosen unto salvation.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If God did something more than just KNOW something, but actually cause it - then you're wandering into reformed territory.

God causes lots of things to happen. That's not the definition of Calvinism. In Calvinism, God purposely causes a person to be a believer, with no consideration of what they might actually choose if given the choice. I say God purposely gives us the choice by carefully controlling our circumstances. Even driving us to the choice. We are like metals being tested in the furnace of affliction. Some of us will come forth as pure gold, some not so much.

 

[Cooper]

God causes lots of things to happen. That's not the definition of Calvinism. In Calvinism, God purposely causes a person to be a believer, with no consideration of what they might actually choose if given the choice. I say God purposely gives us the choice by carefully controlling our circumstances. Even driving us to the choice. We are like metals being tested in the furnace of affliction. Some of us will come forth as pure gold, some not so much.

The Calvinistic view is that God from all eternity, of the mere good pleasure of his will, selected certain persons out of mankind to be the heirs of glory; regardless of lifestyle or belief and are always saved.

The Arminian view is that God foresaw from all eternity those who would, in the exercise of their own free-will, respond according to his purpose, and be conformed to the image of his Son. In virtue of this foreknowledge, God preordained them to glory. They are identified by their work for God and their likeness to his Son.
.

 

[Randy]

This condition is NOT specific prechosen
“Unless you people see signs and wonders,” Jesus told him, “you will never believe.”

This condition was a continuous problem with the people God had made a covenant with.
God=>But the house of Israel will not be willing to listen to you, for they are not willing to listen to me: because all the house of Israel have a hard forehead and a stubborn heart.