CAN A REFORMED BELIEVER FALL AWAY FROM FAITH?

[Randy]

But He did (say it).

John 6:54-56 NIV - "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them."

Fed = once
Feeds = ongoing

Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

Jesus never drives us away so if one doesn't remain in Him its not Jesus's doing.

Here is a trustworthy saying:
If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.

A warning to saints
A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” 12This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

But He did (say it).

John 6:54-56 NIV - "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them."

The condition for the promise is that you keep believing and that you do not turn back to unbelief. Reformed doctrine says God fulfills that condition for you by making you a believer apart from any consideration of what you yourself may want to believe or not believe. Non Reformed doctrine says it is incumbent upon the person to believe in the promise as God provides the grace of faith to do so.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Reformed doctrine says God fulfills that condition for you by making you a believer apart from any consideration of what you yourself may want to believe or not believe.

Reformed doctrine says it has to be this way to ensure that salvation is not by works, as if you having the choice to believe in the blood of Christ would constitute a work of self righteousness. Which, of course, is completely contrary to the Bible where believing in Christ is contrasted with the self righteous works gospel, not equated with them.

 

[Cooper]

The returned don't teach that.

You really need to actually physically attend a solid one . I do.imagine if it took seven years of a process to be a pastor .do the arminist churches do that ?
That's to ensure proper doctrine .and character .

I go by what I read on the forums.

I have never been to a reformed Church. The word reformed makes me shy away.
.

 

[Randy]

If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

Clearly a "conditionally choice" and if you didn't have any choice or say in the matter a useless command. But we know Jesus testifies to the truth of the matter.

remain=stay in the place that one has been occupying

Jesus Himself was tempted to do evil but He chose to follow His Father and rejected the wrong and choose the right every time.

Jesus asked, if possible, for the cup to pass in the garden but He chose to submit to the Fathers will NOT His will.

It's defined as FREEWILL.

 

[GodsGrace]

But He did (say it).

John 6:54-56 NIV - "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and

Yes. Jesus certainly did say it.
But if you notice it's in the present tense.

It says WHOEVER EATS
Not WHOEVER ATE

Salvation is contingent on CONTINUING to believe, to have faith, to obey, to eat, and to drink.
What a person did years ago matters not...
what matters is that we're doing it when we die.

The P in TULIP cannot be correct because there really is no scripture to support it.
The only reason some accept it is because they believe we do not have free will.

Plus, Calvin taught something so ugly that I always hesitate to post it.
And won't this time either.

 

[GodsGrace]

I agree. And that's what the original Apostles were to the church. I've thought about this a lot, and I think it was inevitable their anointing simply could not be sustained in successive generations of leaders. It was doomed from the start. There was no way the leadership of the church was going to stay pure and accurate and anointed. God knew this. Thankfully, we have the Apostles words written down, and we have the ministry of the Holy Spirit to guide us into the truth.

The teachings of the Apostles were passed down in the church and remained pure for the first couple of centuries..or until about 325AD - at the council of Nicea things began to change.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The teachings of the Apostles were passed down in the church and remained pure for the first couple of centuries..or until about 325AD - at the council of Nicea things began to change.

I think started before this, but generally, yes, this was a major turning point toward the corruption of the church.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I have never been to a reformed Church. The word reformed makes me shy away.

Me, too. But not because of their views on salvation, but because they are powerless Cessationists.

 

[Randy]

Yes. Jesus certainly did say it.
But if you notice it's in the present tense.

It says WHOEVER EATS
Not WHOEVER ATE

Salvation is contingent on CONTINUING to believe, to have faith, to obey, to eat, and to drink.
What a person did years ago matters not...
what matters is that we're doing it when we die.

The P in TULIP cannot be correct because there really is no scripture to support it.
The only reason some accept it is because they believe we do not have free will.

Plus, Calvin taught something so ugly that I always hesitate to post it.
And won't this time either.

The only way Calvinists can be correct is if "God" has "bound" are "Will".
That's not what I see even in the Son let alone us nor in Jesus's teaching "remain in me"

I love Jesus and "choose" to remain in Him.
My will has not been "bound" by God.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

Clearly a "conditionally choice" and if you didn't have any choice or say in the matter a useless command. But we know Jesus testifies to the truth of the matter.

remain=stay in the place that one has been occupying

Jesus Himself was tempted to do evil but He chose to follow His Father and rejected the wrong and choose the right every time.

Jesus asked, if possible, for the cup to pass in the garden but He chose to submit to the Fathers will NOT His will.

It's defined as FREEWILL.

There's no "if."

"Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them"

 

[jasonc]

I go by what I read on the forums.

I have never been to a reformed Church. The word reformed makes me shy away.
.

Online ,so you know what a person says is the way.

So based on that logic

Cuz I have seen it in person

Jesus adores murderers .

Yup arminists often will tell the abortionist and sinners Jesus loves them and nothing more .

No Warnings of sin arminist by large ordain women in office .gasp.
I guess transgenderism is a ok.

Most of the arminist churches locally are that way here.they have women in elder position .see when you take that same argument of well they just ignore this verse .that can be applied to that with that same level of ignoring what they say .

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

The only way Calvinists can be correct is if "God" has "bound" are "Will".
That's not what I see even in the Son let alone us nor in Jesus's teaching "remain in me"

I love Jesus and "choose" to remain in Him.
My will has not been "bound" by God.

The below verse applies to all who receive this remarkable Spiritual Circumcision as incredibly described below. Is your "chooser" responsible for the Work of God? Below, there are many "I" references to who performs the work, but not a single "you" that indicates effort.

Ezekiel 36:25-27 NKJV - "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them."

 

[Randy]

The below verse applies to all who receive this remarkable Spiritual Circumcision as incredibly described below. Is your "chooser" responsible for the Work of God? Below, there are many "I" references to who performs the work, but not a single "you" that indicates effort.

Ezekiel 36:25-27 NKJV - "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them."

It's still a "if" - our will has not been bound by God
remain in me - keep my commands

The aide of the Spirit as outlined in the NT in salvific context
For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

 

[jasonc]

I agree. And that's what the original Apostles were to the church. I've thought about this a lot, and I think it was inevitable their anointing simply could not be sustained in successive generations of leaders. It was doomed from the start. There was no way the leadership of the church was going to stay pure and accurate and anointed. God knew this. Thankfully, we have the Apostles words written down, and we have the ministry of the Holy Spirit to guide us into the truth.

Problem is that is exactly what I meant by the earlier post.we are human and biased,stubborn

 

[rogerg]

If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

Clearly a "conditionally choice" and if you didn't have any choice or say in the matter a useless command. But we know Jesus testifies to the truth of the matter.

remain=stay in the place that one has been occupying

Jesus Himself was tempted to do evil but He chose to follow His Father and rejected the wrong and choose the right every time.

Jesus asked, if possible, for the cup to pass in the garden but He chose to submit to the Fathers will NOT His will.

It's defined as FREEWILL.

You are only seeing only the "what", and not the "how", but the "how" is what is important.
It is clearly not a conditional choice and not freewill - those who remain, remain, only because He saved them, and He is in them, moving them. It comes by salvation, not to salvation. Those trusting they have achieved it through their own choice and/or efforts, by that, are proving that they haven't.
Some may believe for a time but not having been born again, fall away. Those who don't fall away, don't, because they were given new hearts, renewed minds, and the Holy Spirit within them, so that to not remain could never even be a consideration in knowing and trusting the truth. Those who do not know the truth are they who don't remain.
See the below verses for confirmation.

[1Pe 1:4-5 KJV]
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

[Phl 2:13 KJV]
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

[2Ti 1:9 KJV]
9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

[Phl 1:6 KJV]
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

[Rom 3:24 KJV]
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

 

[GodsGrace]

The below verse applies to all who receive this remarkable Spiritual Circumcision as incredibly described below. Is your "chooser" responsible for the Work of God? Below, there are many "I" references to who performs the work, but not a single "you" that indicates effort.

Ezekiel 36:25-27 NKJV - "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them."

Well then,
Why didn't they?

Is God powerless to make humans do as He wants?

We cry out to God and He replies with a welcome.
Of course HE welcomed us first, as He does everyone.
Our crying out is our response.

And, I've noticed the reformed always refer to the OT...
I think the NT - the ultimate revelation - is not too comfortable at the end of the conversation.

 

[GodsGrace]

You are only seeing only the "what", and not the "how", but the "how" is what is important.
It is clearly not a conditional choice and not freewill - those who remain, remain, only because He saved them, and He is in them, moving them. It comes by salvation, not to salvation. Those trusting they have achieved it through their own choice and/or efforts, by that, are proving that they haven't.
Some may believe for a time but not having been born again, fall away. Those who don't fall away, don't, because they were given new hearts, renewed minds, and the Holy Spirit within them, so that to not remain could never even be a consideration in knowing and trusting the truth. Those who do not know the truth are they who don't remain.
See the below verses for confirmation.

Yes, let's look at the verses below - seen through the pink of calvinist's P:

[1Pe 1:4-5 KJV]
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

The inheritance is incorruptible - not us.
We are kept by the power of God THROUGH FAITH...
If our faith fades, so do we.

[Phl 2:13 KJV]
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

Look at verse 12 of Phil 2
Paul tells them to WORK HARD to show the results of salvation.
The people must work hard.
They must obey God with reverence and fear.

And the Holy Spirit is indeed working in us to give us the strength and power to obey God.
Jesus said it was good for Him to go away so the Holy Spirit could come to help us.

IF you take Philippians 2:13 literally - and I've said this repeatedly -
it means that IF WE DO NOT OBEY GOD,
it means GOD has failed --- NOT US.

[2Ti 1:9 KJV]
9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

This simply means that we are not saved by our works, but by faith.
We all agree to this.
His purpose is to use us as He will - whatever ministry God might have in mind for us.
We are His hands and feet on earth.
This He foreknew and predestined for us before the world began.

[Phl 1:6 KJV]
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

Very true.
As long as we remain IN THE FAITH.

Matthew 24:10
1 Cor 9:27
Hebrews 10:39
and many more...

[Rom 3:24 KJV]
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

True. Nothing to say.
God's grace justifies us through Jesus' atonement.

 

[Randy]

You are only seeing only the "what", and not the "how", but the "how" is what is important.
It is clearly not a conditional choice and not freewill - those who remain, remain, only because He saved them, and He is in them, moving them. It comes by salvation, not to salvation. Those trusting they have achieved it through their own choice and/or efforts, by that, are proving that they haven't.
Some may believe for a time but not having been born again, fall away. Those who don't fall away, don't, because they were given new hearts, renewed minds, and the Holy Spirit within them, so that to not remain could never even be a consideration in knowing and trusting the truth. Those who do not know the truth are they who don't remain.
See the below verses for confirmation.

[1Pe 1:4-5 KJV]
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

[Phl 2:13 KJV]
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

[2Ti 1:9 KJV]
9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

[Phl 1:6 KJV]
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

[Rom 3:24 KJV]
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

I was purchased by the blood of Christ for God.
I am sanctified by my faith in Him.

Its call saved by grace through faith, which I fully believe.

My will has not been bound by God. I make choices.

 

[Cooper]

Me, too. But not because of their views on salvation, but because they are powerless Cessationists.

I did not know they were cessationlists. Thank you.