CAN A REFORMED BELIEVER FALL AWAY FROM FAITH?

[Hopeful]

It's still a "if" - our will has not been bound by God
remain in me - keep my commands

The aide of the Spirit as outlined in the NT in salvific context
For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

(Actually, it should be read "keep dead" the misdeeds of the body.)
From the KJV...
Romans 8:13
"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Colossians 3:5
"Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:"

 

[Hopeful]

We are saved by Christ's faith/obedience to the Father, not by ours. The faith the saved receive, is of the fruit of the Spirit, a gift from God. Were we to believe that faith is by/of our doing, then that faith would be faith in ourselves, not in Christ - he who we believe to be the cause of faith, is he in whom our faith has been placed.

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

[Rom 1:4-6 KJV]
4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

Will we be saved without our faith and obedience to the Father?
No.

 

[rogerg]

Will we be saved without our faith and obedience to the Father?
No.

I believe that those whom the Father chose for salvation, will/must become saved. Salvation
is that which brings forth faith and obedience - they come from salvation, and are not to salvation

 

[GodsGrace]

People were trying to "change" the church from the first days.
Ananias and Sapphira tried to get away with lying very early on.
The apostles were persecuted from the earliest day.
Whether by insiders or outside pressures the church has remained obedient to God throughout its history.
If a group hasn't, it isn't the church by Christ Jesus (Eph 3:21).

I'd say that there was infiltration into the church from heretical groups.
Docism, gnosticm, arianism.
Not sure I got all the isms right, but I'm sure you know what I mean.
But they were refused and the group abolished from the church.

Of course by the church of Christ Jesus you mean the Body of Christ.
And with this, no one can disagree.

 

[GodsGrace]

We are saved by Christ's faith/obedience to the Father, not by ours. The faith the saved receive, is of the fruit of the Spirit, a gift from God. Were we to believe that faith is by/of our doing, then that faith would be faith in ourselves, not in Christ - he who we believe to be the cause of faith, is he in whom our faith has been placed.

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

[Rom 1:4-6 KJV]
4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

How many times must we hear this untrue statement.
If you mean that we are saved because JESUS WAS FAITHFUL TO HIS MISSION, then we all agree with you.

But I'm 99.9% sure this is not what you mean.
We are saved by our faith, and by our good deeds or works, and by our continuing to believe and by our obedience.

We BELIEVE.
God graces us with FAITH.
If we continue in this faith, we will be saved.
Our salvation will be rewarded in the end.

I think I might start posting links.
That agree with mainline Christianity, of course:

Paul writes to the Corinthians, “Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved (σωζεσθε), if you hold fast to the word I preached to you— unless you believed in vain” (ESV).

This is one of the main verses used when speaking of the three “times” of salvation — past (on the cross), now (as we walk the path), and the future (Day of the Lord). I was asked the other day whether σωζεσθε should be translated“are saved” (NASB, NIV, HCSB, KJV) or “are being saved” (ESV, NET). In other words, is it an aoristic present or a continuous or even a futuristic present?

There are varied and unrelated translations that go with either, so part of the answer is, yes, you can translate it either way. But why the difference, and which is to be preferred?

Fee and Garland see the progression of the verse as going from the past (“received”), present (“stand”), and the present process with the future reality (“are being saved”), understanding that salvation is in one sense a process that will not reach completion until the Day of the Lord.

That there is a future aspect to salvation is undeniable. Rom 5:9 makes it explicit. “Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved (σωθησομεθα) by him from the wrath of God” (see also 1 Thess 5:9-10). More importantly, because of its contextual proximity, is 1 Cor 1:18 where the continuous (or imperfective if you wish) participle σωζομενοις requires a present sense. “For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God” (ESV). Surprisingly, most translations go with “who are being saved” here even if they say “are saved” in 15:2, but this is required by the obviously continuous “are perishing.”

So which is to be preferred? Thiselton says the commentaries are agreed that the continuous aspect “is to be explicated” as it “denotes what is done for them in the future,” and think this is best in this context. What would it mean if Paul said they “are” saved “if” they persevere? Not sure that makes sense. The necessity of perseverance and the meaning of the passage does not make sense if in fact the person’s salvation is in every way wholly accomplished in the past.

source: https://www.billmounce.com/monday-with-mounce/are-you-saved-or-are-you-being-saved”-1-cor-15-2

 

[Randy]

(Actually, it should be read "keep dead" the misdeeds of the body.)
From the KJV...
Romans 8:13
"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Colossians 3:5
"Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:"

The key was "You" put to death by the aide of the Spirit. As opposed to compelled by God against your will. I don't know if mortify is correct usage.

Romans 8:13 Interlinear: for if according to the flesh ye do live, ye are about to die; and if, by the Spirit, the deeds of the body ye put to death, ye shall live;

biblehub.com

 

[Randy]

I believe that those whom the Father chose for salvation, will/must become saved. Salvation
is that which brings forth faith and obedience - they come from salvation, and are not to salvation

I believe in free will to choose, reject or remain.
If a persons sense of right and wrong is so corrupted by Satan then the word of God will be as vailed to them as Satan has blinded their mind to keep them from seeing the light. That doesn't mean everyone who can see that light will accept Christ.
Faith comes from hearing and hearing by the word of God. As I pointed out before I once when very young believed in Santa Claus. Though I never prayed to nor worshipped Santa. That teaching didn't come from God. Likewise I was also taught about Christ from my beginning and did pray to Him. That teaching and sowing of the good seed played a important role in me coming to Christ and that was of man. I do state God makes that seed grow.

 

[rogerg]

I believe in free will to choose, reject or remain.
If a persons sense of right and wrong is so corrupted by Satan then the word of God will be as vailed to them as Satan has blinded their mind to keep them from seeing the light. That doesn't mean everyone who can see that light will accept Christ.
Faith comes from hearing and hearing by the word of God. As I pointed out before I once when very young believed in Santa Claus. Though I never prayed to nor worshipped Santa. That teaching didn't come from God. Likewise I was also taught about Christ from my beginning and did pray to Him. That teaching and sowing of the good seed played a important role in me coming to Christ and that was of man. I do state God makes that seed grow.

If the gospel is hidden, it is hidden to those who are lost, so, should someone become unblinded, they therefore are no longer of the lost.

[2Co 4:3 KJV] 3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

[2Co 4:4 KJV] 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[2Th 2:13-14 KJV]
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

From the womb, we all come into this life blinded by Satan. When, and if, a person is given spiritual eyes by God to see, the "glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them", therefore, salvation brings
with itself the receiving of spiritual sight by which are they no longer blind.

 

[hawkman]

From the womb, we all come into this life blinded by Satan.

If sin is passed from generation to generation by hereditary propagation, and no one can transmit what he does not have, then how can the children of born again parents inherit sin from them ?

 

[rogerg]

If sin is passed from generation to generation by hereditary propagation, and no one can transmit what he does not have, then how can the children of born again parents inherit sin from them ?

Sin comes by the law - by the law of law - or to be more biblical, the law of sin and death.
It is law that assesses and imputes sin. If no law, then no sin - both are necessary - can't have one without the other.
Not that certain laws themselves are evil or sinful, but that law invokes in man a desire to satisfy/achieve it by their own works rather than by Christ- in order for it to be otherwise, one must become saved. This desire, I believe, is the hereditary propagation you mentioned and originated by/from Adam, Eve, and Satan. However, Christ takes certain people who are under the law of sin and death and places them under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus or, said another way, that they are no longer subject to the judgment of law. So, if Christ is the remedy
for sin, that is, if through Christ is all sin is remitted, then sin at its highest level must be of not having true faith in Christ as Saviour.

[Rom 5:13 KJV]
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

[Rom 8:1-2 KJV]
1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

[1Co 15:56-57 KJV]
56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I can't agree that God would leave successive generations to flutter in the wind.

Acts 20:28-30

I believe the corruption has worked its way through the dough to the point that it's basically the believer, the Bible, and the Holy Spirit now. No official clearinghouse of truth exists in these end times like it did in the days of the Apostles.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If it isn't, the wind will, and has, blown away the chaff.

Not from any one organization as a whole but only individually in believers.. No denomination has the complete truth at this time.

 

[Randy]

If the gospel is hidden, it is hidden to those who are lost, so, should someone become unblinded, they therefore are no longer of the lost.

[2Co 4:3 KJV] 3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

[2Co 4:4 KJV] 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[2Th 2:13-14 KJV]
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

From the womb, we all come into this life blinded by Satan. When, and if, a person is given spiritual eyes by God to see, the "glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them", therefore, salvation brings
with itself the receiving of spiritual sight by which are they no longer blind.

=> In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds - The enemy of God who sows the weeds.
I'm freewill. From the womb sounds a little young to have already been corrupted and if they have Christian parents they have a good chance of being lead to Christ.

 

[rogerg]

=> In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds - The enemy of God who sows the weeds.
I'm freewill. From the womb sounds a little young to have already been corrupted and if they have Christian parents they have a good chance of being lead to Christ.

All of the unsaved are of the wicked. They are so from the womb.

[Psa 58:3 KJV]
3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

It's still a "if" - our will has not been bound by God
remain in me - keep my commands

The aide of the Spirit as outlined in the NT in salvific context
For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

That's all fine n dandy. It was stated that Jesus never said, "You will remain in me," but he did. That's all, and it plainly obvious. I'm not going round and round over this.

Have a great day, Randy! :D

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

Yes. Jesus certainly did say it.

Thank you!

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

The words 'Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them' implies that there are folk who will not do this (because they choose not to). And so there most certainly is an 'if'. Randy is correct.

That's fine. It was stated that Jesus never said that He will remain in people. I was just showing the obvious, which is that He in fact did say it, just as wondering acknowledged.

Have a great day, Niblo!

 

[Randy]

That's all fine n dandy. It was stated that Jesus never said, "You will remain in me," but he did. That's all, and it plainly obvious. I'm not going round and round over this.

Have a great day, Randy! :biggrin

I'm am having a good day!:biggrin

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That's all fine n dandy. It was stated that Jesus never said, "You will remain in me," but he did. That's all, and it plainly obvious. I'm not going round and round over this.

Have a great day, Randy! :biggrin

There's a condition attached to remaining in him. Reformed doctrine says that condition is always met by God in the person that He purposely created to be a believer. Non Reformed doctrine says it is incumbent upon the person to avail themselves of God's grace to meet the condition for remaining in him.

 

[Hopeful]

I believe that those whom the Father chose for salvation, will/must become saved. Salvation
is that which brings forth faith and obedience - they come from salvation, and are not to salvation

Salvation will occur on the day of judgement.
You have "jumped the gun".
Conversion happens before salvation will happen.
You have the cart in front of the horse.