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CAN A REFORMED BELIEVER FALL AWAY FROM FAITH?

Randy said:
The fact that angels sinned and they know God shows the capability of free will beings to sin even though they believe and do so with the full knowledge of the truth.

If one falls away or doesn't "remain" in Christ that shows they did belong or were "in Christ" at some point in time. The warning Jesus gave was to all not just those cut off. "remain in me"

The only thing I can state with 100 percent confidence is remain in Christ and you will never die.
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You bring up a good point.
If a person FALLS AWAY from something...
exactly what are they falling away from.

In the case of salvation...they would be falling away from the faith that saves them.

1 Timothy 4:1
1But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

2 Corinthians 11:3
3But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.
 
Randy said:
The fact that angels sinned and they know God shows the capability of free will beings to sin even though they believe and do so with the full knowledge of the truth.

If one falls away or doesn't "remain" in Christ that shows they did belong or were "in Christ" at some point in time. The warning Jesus gave was to all not just those cut off. "remain in me"

The only thing I can state with 100 percent confidence is remain in Christ and you will never die.
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The point of the OP would be...
what makes calvinists believe they are any different?
Why would the NT make a point of the forfeiture of salvation IF IT WERE NOT POSSIBLE?
 
wondering said:
You bring up a good point.
If a person FALLS AWAY from something...
exactly what are they falling away from.

In the case of salvation...they would be falling away from the faith that saves them.

1 Timothy 4:1
1But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

2 Corinthians 11:3
3But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.
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Jesus=>Branches in the vine
Jesus=>He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

Jesus is the vine - remain in Him
Jesus=>You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

Jesus=>“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me...

(conditional)=>"if" you remain in me

Not stated by Jesus=>(you will remain in me)
 
Randy said:
Jesus=>Branches in the vine
Jesus=>He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

Jesus is the vine - remain in Him
Jesus=>You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

Jesus=>“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me...

(conditional)=>"if" you remain in me

Not stated by Jesus=>(you will remain in me)
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Yes. Good.
So many verses.
He never said YOU WILL remain in me.
:thumbsup
 
wondering said:
He never said YOU WILL remain in me.
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But He did (say it).

John 6:54-56 NIV - "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them."
 
Randy said:
Jesus=>“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me...

(conditional)=>"if" you remain in me

Not stated by Jesus=>(you will remain in me)
Click to expand...

That was because His words were/are directed to both the saved and to the unsaved. Those of the saved would remain in Him, those not of the saved, wouldn't. Those who abide in Him, do so only through God, and not of themselves.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
And that is the problem. People instantly go with what their particular church teaches instead of just letting the scriptures speak for themselves. Many churches add special interpretations to the scriptures, but if a person has their own relationship with the scriptures they can spot what denominations are doing that. The two main problems are the church is a business, and those in leadership think they are not allowed to ever be wrong and have to be right all the time for fear their calling and authority will be suspect.
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the problem with hyper demonontionalism and also the opposite which is really secret admission to doing the same thing. often by being anti such you become just like that. there has to be some group to ensure proper doctrine is taught. other wise its chaos.
 
Randy said:
The fact that angels sinned and they know God, shows the capability of free will beings to sin even though they believe and do so with the full knowledge of the truth.
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The angels were not born of, or reborn of, God's seed.
Only those who were crucified with Christ were raised with Him to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4-6)
Randy said:
If one falls away or doesn't "remain" in Christ that shows they did belong or were "in Christ" at some point in time. The warning Jesus gave was to all not just those cut off. "remain in me"
Click to expand...
If they sin, they were not reborn of God.
Randy said:
The only thing I can state with 100 percent confidence is, remain in Christ and you will never die.
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Actually its..."You will ever die the second death".
 
jasonc said:
the problem with hyper demonontionalism and also the opposite which is really secret admission to doing the same thing. often by being anti such you become just like that. there has to be some group to ensure proper doctrine is taught. other wise its chaos.
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In our church, that "group" is the pages of the bible.
 
Hopeful said:
The angels were not born of, or reborn of, God's seed.
Only those who were crucified with Christ were raised with Him to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4-6)

If they sin, they were not reborn of God.

Actually its..."You will ever die the second death".
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Beg pardon. Being baptised into Christ has nothing to do with angels.

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
(Rom 6:4-6 KJV)
.
 
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jasonc said:
the problem with hyper demonontionalism and also the opposite which is really secret admission to doing the same thing. often by being anti such you become just like that. there has to be some group to ensure proper doctrine is taught. other wise its chaos.
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The Jews speaking about God's grace had what they thought was a clinching argument to continue in sin when they said:-

"If the gospel of grace teaches that man's sin provides for an even greater display of God's grace, then doesn't it suggest that we should continue in sin that grace may be all the more abundant?"

I'm reminded of Calvinism.
.
 
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Cooper said:
The Jews speaking about God's grace had what they thought was a clinching argument to continue in sin when they said:-

"If the gospel of grace teaches that man's sin provides for an even greater display of God's grace, then doesn't it suggest that we should continue in sin that grace may be all the more abundant?"

I'm reminded of Calvinism.
.
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The returned don't teach that.

You really need to actually physically attend a solid one . I do.imagine if it took seven years of a process to be a pastor .do the arminist churches do that ?
That's to ensure proper doctrine .and character .
 
Hopeful said:
The angels were not born of, or reborn of, God's seed.
Only those who were crucified with Christ were raised with Him to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4-6)

If they sin, they were not reborn of God.

Actually its..."You will ever die the second death".
Click to expand...
Angels "Know" and they didn't have the weakness of the flesh. They were in heaven in the very presence of God.
My point is "freewill" beings are always capable of sinning deliberately with the full knowledge of the truth.
I do feel its highly unlikely for one born of God to do so but its not a "never"
 
Hopeful said:
The angels were not born of, or reborn of, God's seed.
Only those who were crucified with Christ were raised with Him to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4-6)

If they sin, they were not reborn of God.

Actually its..."You will ever die the second death".
Click to expand...
No actually its "never" as "Jesus" testifies this truth.
The spirit is life the flesh counts for nothing.
Your spirit is you and man can't kill the spirit only God can.

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
 
jasonc said:
there has to be some group to ensure proper doctrine is taught. other wise its chaos.
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I agree. And that's what the original Apostles were to the church. I've thought about this a lot, and I think it was inevitable their anointing simply could not be sustained in successive generations of leaders. It was doomed from the start. There was no way the leadership of the church was going to stay pure and accurate and anointed. God knew this. Thankfully, we have the Apostles words written down, and we have the ministry of the Holy Spirit to guide us into the truth.
 
rogerg said:
Those who abide in Him, do so only through God, and not of themselves.
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Everybody knows and agrees with this. The question is if God does that automatically for you without any consideration of what you might actually want to do. Reformed doctrine says it's automatic. Non Reformed doctrine says the person abides as he clings in faith to the One who is able to make him abide.

Philippians 3:12
12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.
 
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