GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Could you please explain the different types of salvation?
I thought there was only one.
Maybe you could provide some scripture.
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CAN A REFORMED BELIEVER FALL AWAY FROM FAITH?
- Thread starter GodsGrace
- Start date
I thought there was only one.
Maybe you could provide some scripture.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Hi CooperSalvation and redemption go hand-in-hand. We are redeemed by the blood of the lamb.
The grace of God is not a licence to follow the things of the world but instead, our lives are to be a beacon of light shining out like a candle into a dark and wicked world.
Here are the later teachings of Calvin and others.
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Covenant theology - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Didn't read the link because I happen to know the covenants pretty well, no expert, there's A LOT to know. That article barely touches on them.
What I want to say is this:
I've often posted to calvinists that they should do a study of the covenants.
It's impossible to know the covenants and remain reformed in faith.
This is because some covenants are bilateral
And conditional.
Why would God make a conditional covenant with creatures that do not have free will???
Is He dumb?
Is He playing games with us?
Iconoclast
rogerg
electedbyhim
brightfame52
People are known by their works and a religion that ignores the need to be right with God is the religion of the unsaved, for the Holy Spirit cannot dwell in the hearts of those who work unrighteousness. Neither are we saved by good works. Be assured God knows his own, but we do not know the mind of God. Our duty is to follow the master all the days of our life and keep trusting Him every step of the way.
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GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
What I find interesting is that John Calvin taught good works.
In fact, continuing in good works is the ONLY way a calvinist can now he is saved since everything depends on God, and only good works are an indication of salvation.
For we dream neither of a faith devoid of good works nor of a justification that stands without them. This alone is of importance: having admitted that faith and good works must cleave together,
What then do good works do in our salvation? In the first instance they remind us of God’s mercy and grace toward us in Christ (3.14.18). In the second case they are “fruits” of his efficacious call (3.14.19). We “take the fruits of regeneration (ex regenerationis fructibus) as proof of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit….” (ibid). Our good works, to the degree they are good, are not ours. They are the Spirit’s. Thus, we do not present them to God as anything but evidence of his grace toward us, which is what the Old Testament believers did when they appealed to their works.
sourece: https://heidelblog.net/2015/10/through-good-works-2/
I do not intend from the above that Calvin believed good works SAVE...
but that they are an indication of salvation, and in that sense are a necessary component of the saved person.
With which I agree, BTW.
The difference is that I may not be doing any good works...
and yet, I can trust God to save me as long as I dwell with Him.
And I can know I'm doing this because I myself cling to Him, and I am conscious of this.
l feel as though I am talking to the self-righteous Pharisees except they did not do 'good deeds' they only bragged, but as you say good deeds do not save anyway making it an empty religion. So to my mind Calvanism is worse than the religion of the Pharisees about whom Jesus said to them directly, "your father is of the devil." I do not think they should have be a platform.
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GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Interestingly enough, I had joined a calvinist forum a few years ago.
The owner and admin were, to say the least, not very friendly.
I was off there, banned, by the end of the week.
And I posted there, just as I do here - very civil and with respect for all.
They seem to get very upset when told that you believe they are incorrect about something...
Refuse to answer if big questions are asked...
and are rather self-righteous about their belief system.
Not all, of course, but in general this is what I've found.
On THIS very forum, I find it difficult to have any sort of intelligent discourse.
I have a problem trying to understand how anyone could believe in this paradigm,
but looks like I won't be getting any help any time soon.
Just so that I understand you, are you saying you think that those who trust in Christs and in His works for their salvation and not in themselves or in their own works should be banned from this platform? Really?
That is not what I said, but thank you for showing us all, how adept Calvenists are at misquoting.
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GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Just saw this...almost missed it.
Paul was saying in this chapter that he deserves to receive lodging and food even though he is not paid.
He was speaking about the leaders of the church and how the members should be mature.
He's telling the Corinthians they need to grow up in their faith.
He compares them to athletes.
He compares THEM...
1 Corinthians 9:22-27
22When I am with those who are weak, I share their weakness, for I want to bring the weak to Christ. Yes, I try to find common ground with everyone, doing everything I can to save some.
23I do everything to spread the Good News and share in its blessings.
24Don’t you realize that in a race everyone runs, but only one person gets the prize? So run to win!
25All athletes are disciplined in their training. They do it to win a prize that will fade away, but we do it for an eternal prize.
26So I run with purpose in every step. I am not just shadowboxing.
27I discipline my body like an athlete, training it to do what it should. Otherwise, I fear that after preaching to others I myself might be disqualified.
Here's what can be learned from the above:
1. In a race only one person gets the prize --- so run to win.
Corinth was an incredibly immoral city, Paul meant to keep to the faith as if they were running a race to win.
2. The people were to discipline their body...due to all the immorality.
They had a prize to win in the end...an eternal prize that will not fade away; heaven.
3. Even Paul runs with a purpose, he's not just making believe - shadow boxing.
Surely the purpose is a moral life with heaven as the prize in the end.
4. The immorality was also very sexual in nature. Paul trained HIS BODY, training it to do AS IT SHOULD.
5. If it does NOT do as it should, Paul fears that after teaching others to train well and be moral,
he himself might be disqualified from winning the prize.
The prize is heaven.
Not a quote a question. You do understand the difference, don't you? So, since you didn't mean that,
please clarify the "I do not think they should have be a platform" comment.
I have nothing further to say.
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GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
This is for you and Cooper
There have been no rules broken.
If Cooper feels there should not be a platform (calvinist sub-forum) for free discussion,
it is his right as he is expressing free speech.
He did not denegrade you personally or make a harsh statement regarding your belief system.
Please continue with understanding and love.
John 13:35
"I have nothing further to say", is saying a lot.
Salvation is primarily from the practice of sin.mt1:21
The reigning power of sin has been broken by new birth.Jesus and His law word rules in the believer.
When a believer is saved by God, he cannot continue in sin Rom6:1-21.
The result is a person who does not perish in the second death.
At glorification they will no longer be able to sin, so this is the salvation that is eternal.
I never said that he did, nor did I complain about it, nor did I ask for anyone's intervention with it.
Since he said that I mis-quoted him, I asked for clarification of that comment.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Sorry Roger.
Just wanted to let you know that what the other member said was not against the rules
and it sounded like it was going to turn into an argument.
Thanks for ending it there.
I understand where you are coming from, it is just a continuous circle of questions and answers that no one likes.
I will never be able to convince an Arminian of the theology I believe and vice versa. I have been on both sides of the the camps.
Just wonder if it comes to to one being right or actually what the Bible teaches.
We are all flawed in our theology..
Grace and peace to you.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Here's what I suggest:
Let's just speak about theology and try to keep away from the calvinism debate?
But I don't think the other side is arminian (or however it's spelled).
I also do believe that one side will be right and one side will be wrong.
That goes without saying...we both cannot be right.
I do want to say that I have read the ECFs and, although I firmly believe that scripture is our authority,
they do write about what they were taught by the Apostles or their immediate pupils so I feel that they can be trusted.
I got to them to break a tie...when needed.
So far I've used them for two topics:
OSAS
WORKS (not for salvation).
No, it is not saying that - you are ignoring the word "kept" in 1Pe 1:5. It is saying that through God's power alone, for those whom He saves, He has made Himself the guarantor of their faith - that it would remain in them unto the end - the final regeneration. But their faith is not what saved them - true faith comes as a byproduct of, or fruit of, the Holy Spirit resulting FROM SALVATION, not to salvation. Otherwise, if using your interpretation, it could then be possible that the power of man could override the power of God, which cannot be. That is, if someone saved could remove themselves from salvation through a loss of faith, then the verse in saying "kept" must be a lie, because on that basis, they wouldn't be "kept"- so, if not "kept" then a lie - and there is nothing else between the two.
The true faith of those saved is God's work and is His gift - it is not the work of the saved. Verses Jhn 6:29, 1 Pe 1:21, Phl 1:6 (amongst others) confirms this - that God began it, and He maintains it, unto the final regeneration. So, based upon that, it is not possible that anyone saved could fall away from salvation.
[1Pe 1:5 KJV]
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
[Jhn 6:29 KJV]
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
[1Pe 1:21 KJV]
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
[Phl 1:6 KJV]
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:
[1Co 1:9 KJV]
9 God [is] faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.
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GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
I know Roger...
We won't be agreeing.
Two faith paradigms and never the twain shall meet.
I see the word KEPT.
We are KEPT BY FAITH.
By our faith are we kept.
Our faith keeps us.
It is by faith we are saved and kept.
Without faith we are NOT KEPT.
If we fall away from the faith, we will be as lost as we were before.
GOD KEEPS US AS LONG AS WE HAVE FAITH....
As long as we abide in Christ, we will be saved...
If we ABIDE, we ARE KEPT...if we do NOT ABIDE, we are NOT KEPT...
John 15:1-6
1“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
3“You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
I'd say, maybe, that Jesus is stating VERY CLEARLY, that He is NOT a guarantor of your faith.
I'll go to the other verses now...
This is my understanding, which other Christian denominations agree with BTW...
John 6:29
29Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.
Just to make it easy, I'll say that the work that God requires of us is to believe in Jesus.
But what does BELIEVE mean? No expert in Greek, but I think believe means to put our trust in, to follow, and thus to be a disciple and obey our teacher.
Yes, of course we are to believe.
What I find interesting here is that the crowds followed Jesus after He fed them.
And yet, some did abandon Him and yet you say that one must be saved FIRST in order to follow Jesus.
In verse 27, Jesus tells the followers that they should "spend their energy" seeking eternal life that the Son of Man can give. Spend our energy - like as if we have something TO DO and God does not do EVERYTHING but we have a part.
In verse 35 Jesus states that HE is the bread of life....
and whoever COMES TO HIM will never be hungry.
So, apparently, we have the ability to GO TO HIM,
we are not so depraved as to not be able to seek God and find Him.
Philippians 1:6
6And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns.
God begins the good work in us - I believe it's speaking to our salvation -
and He will certainly finish it if we abide in Him as Jesus states in John 15:5-6.
I think it's difficult for Paul to mention every little concept every time, so we kind of have to put all the ideas together to get one grand concept that is presented in the NT.
1 Corinthians 1:9
8He will keep you strong to the end so that you will be free from all blame on the day when our Lord Jesus Christ returns.
9God will do this, for he is faithful to do what he says, and he has invited you into partnership with his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
I feel it's saying the same as Philippians 1:6.
I believe in free will, so in all these cases I believe we must adhere to God's rule of the CONTINUING belief in Jesus.
Our belief in Him is always stated in the present tense.
Verse 9 says that we are partners with Jesus. We are in a partnership. (NLT)
The NASB says fellowship.
I don't see eternal unconditional salvation in the bible.
I've given a few verses but everyone does not reply to verses like I do.
For instance, how do you understand
2 Peter 2:20-22
20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
22It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”