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CAN A REFORMED BELIEVER FALL AWAY FROM FAITH?

wondering said:
Agreed.
Pride and egotism lead to many sins.
I'm trying to think of someone I know that is atheist and quietly does good.
Not coming up with anyone right now...
Anyway, it wouldn't give the glory to God.

You didn't answer my question.
Does choice denote free will ?
Click to expand...
I did answer.

There is choices, for the unregenerated sinner, everything they choose is sinful because it comes from a sinful heart.

Isaiah says, even the good they do comes from a woman's menstruel rag. Isaiah 64:6. It is motivated by pride. Mother Theresa comes to mind.

For those who are regenerated, the good they do is motivated by Holy Spirit.

When you do something good, is the motivation because it makes you feel good, or is it to bring glory to the Lord?
 
electedbyhim said:
I did answer.

There is choices, for the unregenerated sinner, everything they choose is sinful because it comes from a sinful heart.

Isaiah says, even the good they do comes from a woman's menstruel rag. Isaiah 64:6. It is motivated by pride. Mother Theresa comes to mind.

For those who are regenerated, the good they do is motivated by Holy Spirit.

When you do something good, is the motivation because it makes you feel good, or is it to bring glory to the Lord?
Click to expand...
There's more...
 
electedbyhim said:
Thank you for your honesty.

Romans 10:1-2 Brothers, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.
Click to expand...
The above post was in response to my post saying that I pray for someone to see God's light.

Romans 10:1-4 NLT
1Dear brothers and sisters, the longing of my heart and my prayer to God is for the people of Israel to be saved.
2I know what enthusiasm they have for God, but it is misdirected zeal.
3For they don’t understand God’s way of making people right with himself. Refusing to accept God’s way, they cling to their own way of getting right with God by trying to keep the law.
4For Christ has already accomplished the purpose for which the law was given. As a result, all who believe in him are made right with God.


I believe Paul is speaking about changing from The Law to Grace...he's speaking to his Jewish brethren.
So, under grace, all who believe in Jesus are made right with God.
We move from Law to Grace.
 
electedbyhim said:
I did answer.

There is choices, for the unregenerated sinner, everything they choose is sinful because it comes from a sinful heart.
Click to expand...

This goes into the totally depraved person and includes free will.

Every Christian believes we are born depraved.
We are all born with the sinful nature that has us in a broken relationship with God.
So we are born estranged from God.

I don't think it's correct to say that EVERYTHING the unregenerate choose is sinful...they choose a lot which is helpful to humanity.

I'd say, instead, that everything they choose is irrelevant because God is not a part of them...their spirit is not reborn, or I should say, born.

So this sinful heart is the sinful nature, and we could not be pleasing to God because of this.

Why free will?

Because Calvinism must rely on the fact that man does not have free will or the paradigm falls apart.
We are born depraved...
But we have the ability to see God's light or feel His grace somehow - and we have the free will to respond to it.

We are depraved and have the sin nature...
But we are able to see the light and climb out of that hole.
IOW, God gives us a hand - but He will not pull us out unless we so desire.

It's simple love.
Love cannot be forced or it's not real love.

God's hand comes to me...and I have to reach for it in order to be pulled out.

This is throughout the NT, but I'll do as you requested and not poste verses.

It would be interesting, however, to understand HOW you went from understanding
John 3:16 as prescriptive to descriptive.
Just continuing to read makes it clear that it's prescriptive...
the prescription to salvation.

electedbyhim said:
Isaiah says, even the good they do comes from a woman's menstruel rag. Isaiah 64:6. It is motivated by pride. Mother Theresa comes to mind.

For those who are regenerated, the good they do is motivated by Holy Spirit.

When you do something good, is the motivation because it makes you feel good, or is it to bring glory to the Lord?
Click to expand...
I agree with what you've written above.
 
Last edited:
electedbyhim said:
When you do something good, is the motivation because it makes you feel good, or is it to bring glory to the Lord?
Click to expand...
Both.

Fear of punishment can (and should) motivate someone to be obedient (Romans 13:3-5, 2 Corinthians 5:9-10). And the love of God compels us to glorify God in our service and obedience to him (2 Corinthians 5:14-15).

Either way, it feels good to glorify God when we have the chance to do that.
 
wondering said:
The above post was in response to my post saying that I pray for someone to see God's light.

Romans 10:1-4 NLT
1Dear brothers and sisters, the longing of my heart and my prayer to God is for the people of Israel to be saved.
2I know what enthusiasm they have for God, but it is misdirected zeal.
3For they don’t understand God’s way of making people right with himself. Refusing to accept God’s way, they cling to their own way of getting right with God by trying to keep the law.
4For Christ has already accomplished the purpose for which the law was given. As a result, all who believe in him are made right with God.


I believe Paul is speaking about changing from The Law to Grace...he's speaking to his Jewish brethren.
So, under grace, all who believe in Jesus are made right with God.
We move from Law to Grace.
Click to expand...
I posted that verse because that is how he prayed.
 
rogerg said:
do you believe Christ is the Saviour
Click to expand...
I believe that Yahweh, father, son, and spirit, is saviour, and that the son noncarnate has an incarnate mode (Jesus), who represents God the son, and thus Yahweh. The role of saviour should not be confined to any one person, or permanent mode of God the son.
 
wondering said:
So you pray that God might save someone?
The opposit of how I pray?
Click to expand...
I pray that God takes the heart of stone out of someone and replaces it with a heart of flesh, I pray that He gives them His faith to believe, His Spirit and that they are of His elect.

Ezekiel 36:26-27 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
 
electedbyhim said:
I pray that God takes the heart of stone out of someone and replaces it with a heart of flesh, I pray that He gives them His faith to believe, His Spirit and that they are of His elect.

Ezekiel 36:26-27 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Click to expand...
I like that prayer too.
God knows our heart,,,sometimes I wonder if prayer is necessary.
Roman's 8,26

Ezekiel is referring to the New Covenant.
Under the Law the Spirit remained outside.
In the NC He dwells within.
The NC states that our very heart will be changed.
In the Mosaic Covenant we had to obey the Law with our will only. Not easy.

In the Old C we had to obey.
In the New C we want to obey.
 
electedbyhim said:
I pray that God takes the heart of stone out of someone and replaces it with a heart of flesh, I pray that He gives them His faith to believe, His Spirit and that they are of His elect.

Ezekiel 36:26-27 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Click to expand...
But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. (Ezekiel 18:21)

Meditation: turn and repent.
.
 
wondering said:
I like that prayer too.
God knows our heart,,,sometimes I wonder if prayer is necessary.
Roman's 8,26

Ezekiel is referring to the New Covenant.
Under the Law the Spirit remained outside.
In the NC He dwells within.
The NC states that our very heart will be changed.
In the Mosaic Covenant we had to obey the Law with our will only. Not easy.

In the Old C we had to obey.
In the New C we want to obey.
Click to expand...
The Spirit does intercede. I know I get my times when my mind is blank or get repetitive and I just throw my hands and ask the Spirit to intercede.

Persistent prayer is good as well. Importunity.

I understand what Ezekiel is talking about.

Grace and peace to you.
 
electedbyhim said:
Agreed, that proves they the person who does this was never really saved.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they were of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be manifested that they all are not of us.
Click to expand...
We are talking about people who are saved.
.
 
electedbyhim said:
Agreed, that proves they the person who does this was never really saved.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they were of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be manifested that they all are not of us.
Click to expand...
If you do a study you'll find that 1 John 2:19 was speaking about gnostics.
Gnostics had already infiltrated the church and John was very worried about this till the day he died.
I do believe that gnosticism was the first heresy.

I'd like to add that Augustine, from whom John Calvin acquired his ideas and mentioned him 4,000 times in his writings (not an insignificant amount) was a manechaen for 10 years...this was a gnostic sect. He became a Christian after this and brought some of his ideas along with him.

Calvinists cannot accept that a person can forfeit their salvation because it would prove
the Perseverance of the Saints to be incorrect and it would cast a shadow on all of TULIP.

A person can certainly lose their salvation.
It's just that the verses saying this cannot be accepted.
 
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