CAN A REFORMED BELIEVER FALL AWAY FROM FAITH?

[rogerg]

I believe that Yahweh, father, son, and spirit, is saviour, and that the son noncarnate has an incarnate mode (Jesus), who represents God the son, and thus Yahweh. The role of saviour should not be confined to any one person, or permanent mode of God the son.

But there is only one God, isn't there? Jesus didn't represent God, He WAS God in the flesh and the Saviour, otherwise, He couldn't correctly have held the title of Saviour, nor could He have removed the sin of those He came to save. So, if not solely by Christ as Saviour, then how do you think someone becomes saved? As our discussion began, that it is such, is the simplicity that is in Christ Jesus - that He alone is God and Savior. And therefore, His salvation is with no contribution permitted nor possible from any of those He chose to salvation - to those to whom it is given by Him, it comes completely and fully as a free gift.



[Mat 1:23 KJV]
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

[Phl 2:6-8 KJV]
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

[Phl 3:9 KJV]
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

 

[rogerg]

But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. (Ezekiel 18:21)

Meditation: turn and repent.
.

Of ourselves, no one can turn and repent. The repentance is a repentance from dead works for salvation unto a trust in Christ alone. I think you perceive these kinds of verses in terms of result, but not perceiving cause. The cause of one's turning can only be that God first changes their heart. And that change is only by one's salvation and becoming born again - God's work, not ours.

[Eph 1:17 KJV] 17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

 

[rogerg]

You must be saved to lose your salvation.

Those saved cannot fall-away nor lose their salvation. God made Himself guarantor against that. Those saved
are "kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation" - God's power, not ours.

[1Pe 1:3-5 KJV]
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

[Rom 5:8-10 KJV]
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

 

[GodsGrace]

Of ourselves, no one can turn and repent. The repentance is a repentance from dead works for salvation unto a trust in Christ alone. I think you perceive these kinds of verses in terms of result, but not perceiving cause. The cause of one's turning can only be that God first changes their heart. And that change is only by one's salvation and becoming born again - God's work, not ours.

[Eph 1:17 KJV] 17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

We are given commands Roger.
God would not give us commands unless He knew we had the ability to follow them.

Thus the change from the OC to the NC.
The Israelites could not, of their own strength, keep the Law.
So the Holy Spirit gives us the strength to keep the Law.
It was not abolished, as Jesus stated,
Matthew 5:17 NLT
17“Don’t misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose.
IOW, Jesus did not come to abolish the Law, but to accomplish its purpose.
Its purpose was the ability to keep it to please God who did not withdraw any of His Commands...
The 10 Commandments. The other Laws were the Law of Moses.

Just a few verse down, Jesus makes it even more difficult:
Matthew 5:20 NLT
20“But I warn you—unless your righteousness is better than the righteousness of the teachers of religious law and the Pharisees, you will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven!
Our righteousness has to be better than that of the Pharisees.
They worked from the mind...
We must work with the heart...

In fact, Jesus said:
Matthew 23:3 NLT
3So practice and obey whatever they tell you, but don’t follow their example. For they don’t practice what they teach.

 

[GodsGrace]

Those saved cannot fall-away nor lose their salvation. God made Himself guarantor against that. Those saved
are "kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation" - God's power, not ours.

[1Pe 1:3-5 KJV]
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

[Rom 5:8-10 KJV]
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

The above are great verses.
But we only choose the ones that SEEM to confirm what we believe.
Unfortunately, the bible is one whole, complete book and every verse must agree with what Jesus taught.
And, what Paul taught, and the other Apostles and those that came directly after them.

1 Peter 1:5
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Please notice what 1 Peter 1:5 states...
We are kept by the power of God THROUGH FAITH unto salvation.
As long as we have faith, we will be saved. (of course).
But the bible does warn about faith waning:

Luke 1:13
13And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away.
Jesus said the BELIEVE FOR A WHILE and when tested, fall away.

Hebrews 11:6​

6And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
No faith, no salvation.


1 Timothy 4:1
1Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,
It is possible to depart from the faith...
Apostacy


Revelation 2:4-5
4But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first.
5Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first.
If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.



Yes. The problem is that you believe in the Preservation of the Saints so you cannot accept that one can fall away.

But even Paul was concerned:
1 Corinthians 9:27
27I discipline my body like an athlete, training it to do what it should. Otherwise, I fear that after preaching to others I myself might be disqualified.

 

[Cooper]

Those saved cannot fall-away nor lose their salvation. God made Himself guarantor against that. Those saved
are "kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation" - God's power, not ours.

[1Pe 1:3-5 KJV]
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

[Rom 5:8-10 KJV]
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Adam and Eve had free will and even though they continued to believe in God, they were still excluded from Gods presence because of their disobedience. The scriptures you have posted are about genuinely saved Christians who are warned about the consequences of falling away. So do not go saying they were never saved, because you need to be saved before you can fall away, and the consequences are worse, than if they had never ever believed.
.

 

[rogerg]

Adam and Eve had free will and even though they continued to believe in God, they were still excluded from Gods presence because of their disobedience. The scriptures you have posted are about genuinely saved Christians who are warned about the consequences of falling away. So do not go saying they were never saved, because you need to be saved before you can fall away, and the consequences are worse, than if they had never ever believed.

Your reply makes no sense whatsoever.
The Scriptures I posted were explicitly about those saved and
that God Himself would not allow them to fall away. BTW, there is no such thing as someone who is not
genuinely saved - one is either saved or they are not, period - there is no in-between. If it were possible to
not fall away because they were warned, then that would remove God as guarantor and make it of them.
But that is NOT what the verse tells us. Instead, it says "by the power of God", not man.

 

[electedbyHim]

If you do a study you'll find that 1 John 2:19 was speaking about gnostics.
Gnostics had already infiltrated the church and John was very worried about this till the day he died.
I do believe that gnosticism was the first heresy.

I'd like to add that Augustine, from whom John Calvin acquired his ideas and mentioned him 4,000 times in his writings (not an insignificant amount) was a manechaen for 10 years...this was a gnostic sect. He became a Christian after this and brought some of his ideas along with him.

Calvinists cannot accept that a person can forfeit their salvation because it would prove
the Perseverance of the Saints to be incorrect and it would cast a shadow on all of TULIP.

A person can certainly lose their salvation.
It's just that the verses saying this cannot be accepted.

I have done an intensive study of 1 John.

A saved person cannot lose their salvation its not Biblical.

If I had to count on my own ability to stay saved, I would surely not be saved.

I would elaborate, but I thought this doctrine is not allowed to discussed.

The above are great verses.
But we only choose the ones that SEEM to confirm what we believe.
Unfortunately, the bible is one whole, complete book and every verse must agree with what Jesus taught.
And, what Paul taught, and the other Apostles and those that came directly after them.

1 Peter 1:5
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Please notice what 1 Peter 1:5 states...
We are kept by the power of God THROUGH FAITH unto salvation.
As long as we have faith, we will be saved. (of course).
But the bible does warn about faith waning:

Luke 1:13
13And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away.
Jesus said the BELIEVE FOR A WHILE and when tested, fall away.

Hebrews 11:6​

6And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
No faith, no salvation.


1 Timothy 4:1
1Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,
It is possible to depart from the faith...
Apostacy


Revelation 2:4-5
4But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first.
5Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first.
If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.



Yes. The problem is that you believe in the Preservation of the Saints so you cannot accept that one can fall away.

But even Paul was concerned:
1 Corinthians 9:27
27I discipline my body like an athlete, training it to do what it should. Otherwise, I fear that after preaching to others I myself might be disqualified.

1 Corinthians 9:27

Paul was talking about being disqualified from preaching and leading the church.

The verse has nothing to do with salvation.

 

[GodsGrace]

I have done an intensive study of 1 John.

A saved person cannot lose their salvation its not Biblical.

If I had to count on my own ability to stay saved, I would surely not be saved.

I would elaborate, but I thought this doctrine is not allowed to discussed.

You could elaborate.
I trust you'll remain civil...
Will say good night, but will continue tomorrow.

1 Corinthians 9:27

Paul was talking about being disqualified from preaching and leading the church.

The verse has nothing to do with salvation.

Don't agree.

 

[electedbyHim]

You could elaborate.
I trust you'll remain civil...
Will say good night, but will continue tomorrow.


Don't agree.

No need to elaborate. I could post a whole teaching being once saved always saved. But that will not convince anyone set in their ways. I understand the heretical Arminian view that you and many have here.

I am certain there are many here that read these threads and are confused, but the Lord will open their eyes to His truth if they seek it diligently.

We do not agree on many things which makes us all heretics (my sarcasm).

No worries, you are right and I am wrong. I am right and you are wrong.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[rogerg]

I have done an intensive study of 1 John.

A saved person cannot lose their salvation its not Biblical.

If I had to count on my own ability to stay saved, I would surely not be saved.

I would elaborate, but I thought this doctrine is not allowed to discussed.

I see that wondering quoted my post, and as usual, she has implied an interpretation
that the verse simply doesn't support. However, I do not want to engage her because should I do so, we
would go in circles for days and just end where we started, and she wouldn't understand anyway.
I would just note (and I'm sure you realize this), that to remain
saved, should it be dependent upon us as she says it is, would mean that it then couldn't be by the power of
God and would clearly subvert the intention of the verse - nevertheless, the verse does say that it is solely by the power of God, not of man - which means that she is completely wrong.
It's amazing to me the lengths people will go to when the very foundation of their understanding is threatened.

 

[electedbyHim]

I see that wondering quoted my post, and as usual, she has implied an interpretation
that the verse simply doesn't support. However, I do not want to engage her because should I do so, we
would go in circles for days and just end where we started, and she wouldn't understand anyway.
I would just note (and I'm sure you realize this), that to remain
saved, should it be dependent upon us as she says it is, would mean that it then couldn't be by the power of
God and would clearly subvert the intention of the verse - nevertheless, the verse does say that it is solely by the power of God, not of man - which means that she is completely wrong.
It's amazing to me the lengths people will go to when the very foundation of their understanding is threatened.

Agreed.

 

[GodsGrace]

No need to elaborate. I could post a whole teaching being once saved always saved. But that will not convince anyone set in their ways. I understand the heretical Arminian view that you and many have here.

I am certain there are many here that read these threads and are confused, but the Lord will open their eyes to His truth if they seek it diligently.

We do not agree on many things which makes us all heretics (my sarcasm).

No worries, you are right and I am wrong. I am right and you are wrong.

Grace and peace to you.

Still here, but must leave.
Heretical just means anything that is not accepted by general consenses.
Anything outside of the mainline beliefs.

There are some verses in the NT that seem to indicate that salvation cannot be lost.
But it is definitely true that the NT teaches that one's salvation can be forfeited.
Since there are those verses that may cause some misunderstanding, I looked to those that were taught
by the Apostles themselves. They did not believe in OSAS or Eternal non-conditional salvation.
It's a good ice-breaker when there is some doubt.

I'd be happy to post some writings, but I doubt you'd be interested since they did not write the scriptures.
But, remember, neither did John Calvin.
And they were right close to Jesus teachings...not Calvin.

 

[GodsGrace]

I see that wondering quoted my post, and as usual, she has implied an interpretation
that the verse simply doesn't support. However, I do not want to engage her because should I do so, we
would go in circles for days and just end where we started, and she wouldn't understand anyway.
I would just note (and I'm sure you realize this), that to remain
saved, should it be dependent upon us as she says it is, would mean that it then couldn't be by the power of
God and would clearly subvert the intention of the verse - nevertheless, the verse does say that it is solely by the power of God, not of man - which means that she is completely wrong.
It's amazing to me the lengths people will go to when the very foundation of their understanding is threatened.

You must tag in the member of whom you're referring.

If I remember correctly, the go around was regarding free will.
I may be getting you mixed up with someone esle, but I will say
that calvinists could go on for pages about free will.

This is because all of TULIP depends on our NOT HAVING free will.
If we do have free will, all of calvinism would implode.

Those that know me know that I'm not one to go on and on about something.
Please take part of the "blame".

I find the problem to be that often, you, and others, do not have a reply.
Why else would you not answer a post?

I reply to all posts.
Perhaps you should be courteous and answer my post to you?
If you can.

 

[GodsGrace]

If you do a study you'll find that 1 John 2:19 was speaking about gnostics.
Gnostics had already infiltrated the church and John was very worried about this till the day he died.
I do believe that gnosticism was the first heresy.

I'd like to add that Augustine, from whom John Calvin acquired his ideas and mentioned him 4,000 times in his writings (not an insignificant amount) was a manechaen for 10 years...this was a gnostic sect. He became a Christian after this and brought some of his ideas along with him.

Calvinists cannot accept that a person can forfeit their salvation because it would prove
the Perseverance of the Saints to be incorrect and it would cast a shadow on all of TULIP.

A person can certainly lose their salvation.
It's just that the verses saying this cannot be accepted.

PS
The above is the post in question, written to electedbyhim
Where do I copy a post of yours?

 

[electedbyHim]

Interesting.

 

[Iconoclast]

You must be saved to lose your salvation.
.

There is no such thing as losing salvation

We are talking about people who are saved.
.

There is no such thing as losing salvation

 

[Cooper]

There is no such thing as losing salvation

There is no such thing as losing salvation

We can lose anything we have, but we cannot lose something we do not have. So the unsaved person is correct to say they cannot lose their salvation. Leaving aside the better-known scriptures such as Hebrews 6:4 we need to be aware that once Saved Always Saved is not scriptural.

The apostle Paul warns Timothy about the dangers of making a shipwreck of his faith. (I Timothy 1:18-19)

In Hebrews 3:12-14 Christians are warned about the dangers of departing from the living God.

Hebrews 12:25 warns about turning away from the one who speaks from heaven!

II Peter 3:17 warns us about the dangers of being led away with the error of the wicked.

Heb 10:38 tells us "if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him."

Pro 14:14 The backslider in heart will be filled with the fruit of his ways, and a good man will be filled with the fruit of his ways.

Jer 14:7 "our backslidings are many; we have sinned against you.

Hos 11:7 My people are bent on turning away from me, and though they call out to the Most High, he shall not raise them up at all.

Luk 9:62 Jesus said to him: No man putting his hand to the plough and looking back is fit for the kingdom of God.

Heb 10:38 but my righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him."

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

2Ti 4:3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

Heb 3:12 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.

2Pe 3:17 And so, dear friends, since you already know these things, continually be on your guard not to be carried away by the deception of lawless people. Otherwise, you may fall from your secure position.
.

 

[Iconoclast]

We can lose anything we have, but we cannot lose something we do not have. So the unsaved person is correct to say they cannot lose their salvation. Leaving aside the better-known scriptures such as Hebrews 6:4 we need to be aware that once Saved Always Saved is not scriptural.

The apostle Paul warns Timothy about the dangers of making a shipwreck of his faith. (I Timothy 1:18-19)

In Hebrews 3:12-14 Christians are warned about the dangers of departing from the living God.

Hebrews 12:25 warns about turning away from the one who speaks from heaven!

II Peter 3:17 warns us about the dangers of being led away with the error of the wicked.

Heb 10:38 tells us "if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him."

Pro 14:14 The backslider in heart will be filled with the fruit of his ways, and a good man will be filled with the fruit of his ways.

Jer 14:7 "our backslidings are many; we have sinned against you.

Hos 11:7 My people are bent on turning away from me, and though they call out to the Most High, he shall not raise them up at all.

Luk 9:62 Jesus said to him: No man putting his hand to the plough and looking back is fit for the kingdom of God.

Heb 10:38 but my righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him."

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

2Ti 4:3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

Heb 3:12 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.

2Pe 3:17 And so, dear friends, since you already know these things, continually be on your guard not to be carried away by the deception of lawless people. Otherwise, you may fall from your secure position.
.

Good verses my friend
Those warnings are a means of
Grace to keep the elect on track.
heb 6:9 states it clearly.
Perserverance of the saints is biblical.
What do you mean by the word saved?..Saved from what?
Do you mean,possibly saved?
I am speaking of an accomplished salvation.
Could you explain the Covenant of Redemption?

 

[Cooper]

Good verses my friend
Those warnings are a means of
Grace to keep the elect on track.
heb 6:9 states it clearly.
Perserverance of the saints is biblical.
What do you mean by the word saved?..Saved from what?
Do you mean,possibly saved?
I am speaking of an accomplished salvation.
Could you explain the Covenant of Redemption?

Salvation and redemption go hand-in-hand. We are redeemed by the blood of the lamb.

The grace of God is not a licence to follow the things of the world but instead, our lives are to be a beacon of light shining out like a candle into a dark and wicked world.

Here are the later teachings of Calvin and others.

Covenant theology - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

.