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CAN A REFORMED BELIEVER FALL AWAY FROM FAITH?

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wondering said:
know Roger...
We won't be agreeing.
Two faith paradigms and never the twain shall meet.

I see the word KEPT.
We are KEPT BY FAITH.
By our faith are we kept.
Our faith keeps us.
It is by faith we are saved and kept.
Without faith we are NOT KEPT.
Click to expand...
Yes, wondering, you're correct, we won't be agreeing any time soon. 1Pet 1:5 is not conditional - it is a flat-out statement by God. It doesn't say "in case of faith" but "by faith" - by God, we are kept in faith, and not of ourselves. If saved, we cannot, not, have faith, because true faith is God's work, not ours. Nevertheless, we do not become saved by our faith - faith is a work. It is the work of God that brings salvation -- it came only from/by Christ's faithfulness and His obedience to the Father in accomplishing the mission assigned Him. For us, that faith comes as a gift of God.

wondering said:
GOD KEEPS US AS LONG AS WE HAVE FAITH....

As long as we abide in Christ, we will be saved...
If we ABIDE, we ARE KEPT...if we do NOT ABIDE, we are NOT KEPT...
Click to expand...

Did you read the verses I provided? Faith is from/by God, not by us. And if we are saved, as 1 Pet 1:5 states, we will abide in Him because it is He who guarantees that we do - you are focusing on the effect, and not seeing the cause, which cause, is God, not man. Yet, you only perceive it to be of man.

wondering said:
I'd say, maybe, that Jesus is stating VERY CLEARLY, that He is NOT a guarantor of your faith.
Click to expand...
Oh, but very clearly, He is definitely both guarantor and originator.

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[Heb 12:2 KJV]
2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

wondering, look, I am not going to go through each and every verse you've posted to disprove them because
you will not be able to hear what I would say anyway. But consider this if you can because it is the same answer for most of the points you've raised. It is through the Holy Spirit and Scripture, that those saved over time are edified, learn, and thereby seek the attributes that God desires of them. From and by that, they grow in faith, not of themselves nor for the purpose of becoming saved but coming from salvation.

[Eph 1:17 KJV]
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

[Phl 2:13 KJV]
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

[Act 13:48 KJV]
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
 
wondering said:
For instance, how do you understand
2 Peter 2:20-22
20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
22It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”
Click to expand...

Of themselves, they obtained a certain humanistic intellectual knowledge of Christ and His gospel but were not saved. That is not the same as having been born again and given a renewed mind by God. Being born again and that which it produces, is not intellectual knowledge but spiritual - there is a difference. Those who have been born again, can never lose or depart from it because from it they have become a new person. Your verses have similarity to the parable of the sower

[Mar 4:16-17 KJV]
16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.

[Eph 1:17 KJV]
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
[Rom 12:2 KJV]
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
[Tit 3:5 KJV]
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
 
Last edited:
wondering said:
Interestingly enough, I had joined a calvinist forum a few years ago.
The owner and admin were, to say the least, not very friendly.
I was off there, banned, by the end of the week.
And I posted there, just as I do here - very civil and with respect for all.
They seem to get very upset when told that you believe they are incorrect about something...
Refuse to answer if big questions are asked...
and are rather self-righteous about their belief system.
Not all, of course, but in general this is what I've found.
On THIS very forum, I find it difficult to have any sort of intelligent discourse.
I have a problem trying to understand how anyone could believe in this paradigm,
but looks like I won't be getting any help any time soon.
Click to expand...
What forum was that?
I would like to see how they treated you.
 
wondering said:
Hi Cooper
Didn't read the link because I happen to know the covenants pretty well, no expert, there's A LOT to know. That article barely touches on them.

What I want to say is this:

I've often posted to calvinists that they should do a study of the covenants.
It's impossible to know the covenants and remain reformed in faith.

This is because some covenants are bilateral
And conditional.

Why would God make a conditional covenant with creatures that do not have free will???

Is He dumb?
Is He playing games with us?


Iconoclast
rogerg
electedbyhim
brightfame52
Click to expand...
Could you explain the Covenant of Redemption?
 
wondering said:
I see the word KEPT.
We are KEPT BY FAITH.
By our faith are we kept.
Our faith keeps us.
Click to expand...
No, we are kept by the power of God.
To accomplish that, God keeps those He saves in true faith by His power through and within that faith.
And just to be clear, the faith in view is faith given only by the Holy Spirit to those who become saved/born again by Him. Faith obtained by any other means, such as through one's own efforts or choice, is not true faith.
Instead, true faith is only given by God to those saved/born again as a fruit of the Spirit.
Look at the verses preceding 1 Pet 1:5 - it is easier to understand if taken in context:
V3 informs that it is God Himself who has begotten again (has made born again) those kept in v5; v4 informs
that their inheritance is already reserved, awaiting them in heaven - and in being reserved, they cannot fall from it neither can it be lost to them; v5 informs that to achieve the inheritance as promised by God in v4, they are kept by the power of God.


[1Pe 1:3-5 KJV]
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
 
Iconoclast said:
Could you explain the Covenant of Redemption?
Click to expand...
I would like you to please explain why you think you are always saved.

Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. (Ezekiel 18:4)

But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. (Ezekiel 18:24)

When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. (Ezekiel 18:26)
.
 
wondering said:
Interestingly enough, I had joined a calvinist forum a few years ago.
The owner and admin were, to say the least, not very friendly.
I was off there, banned, by the end of the week.
And I posted there, just as I do here - very civil and with respect for all.
They seem to get very upset when told that you believe they are incorrect about something...
Refuse to answer if big questions are asked...
and are rather self-righteous about their belief system.
Not all, of course, but in general this is what I've found.
On THIS very forum, I find it difficult to have any sort of intelligent discourse.
I have a problem trying to understand how anyone could believe in this paradigm,
but looks like I won't be getting any help any time soon.
Click to expand...

wondering said:
Who could remember...
It was years ago.
Sorry.
Click to expand...
It was probably the same forum I was banned from.
.
 
Iconoclast said:
If you are going to say that "mean" Calvinists banned you, you should give evidence, otherwise it sounds like a made up story.
If they treated you unfair in any way, I will go on there and rebuke them.
Click to expand...
That's very kind of you I.

You see, I've been on this forum quite a few years. Those that know me know that I dont lie.
And you ARE accusing me of lying.

Why assume that I'm lying instead of assuming that I'm telling the truth? I find this interesting.

So it would seem that you are assuming we Christians are living in the world, just like everyone else, instead of in the Kingdom of God, where the norm is that we shouldn't lie. We should be assuming the good, not the evil.
 
Iconoclast said:
You said you kmew a lot about the Covenants????
Never heard about the Covenant of Redemption???
Without it there are no other Covenants!
Click to expand...
There's no such covenant called the Covenant of Redemption.

Go back and read my original post.
Come back here and repeat what you THINK I said.
 
wondering said:
That's very kind of you I.

You see, I've been on this forum quite a few years. Those that know me know that I dont lie.
And you ARE accusing me of lying.

Why assume that I'm lying instead of assuming that I'm telling the truth? I find this interesting.

So it would seem that you are assuming we Christians are living in the world, just like everyone else, instead of in the Kingdom of God, where the norm is that we shouldn't lie. We should be assuming the good, not the evil.
Click to expand...
I have been banned. I know who did it, and the reason they gave for it.
I do not have a good memory, but if I day something I can show it...again, can you name the forum?
 
wondering said:
There's no such covenant called the Covenant of Redemption.

Go back and read my original post.
Come back here and repeat what you THINK I said.
Click to expand...
You need to study more if you are going to post about it.
Saying what you do demonstrates a lack of basic bible understanding.
 
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