Can sinning be overcome?

[justbyfaith]

Hi Tenchi.

I think that there is a difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law.

In the letter of it, we are in violation if we do not wear tassels on our garments. Or, if we violate the food laws.

In the spirit of the law, it is about being obedient to the Holy Spirit on a moment-by-moment basis; and not catering to the flesh or sinful nature.

A person can be disobedient to the letter of the law and yet obedient to the spirit of it (see John 5:16-18, Hebrews 4:15).

In the spirit of the law, food laws have been abolished (see 1 Timothy 4:1-6). And we certainly do not need to wear tassels on our garments.

But the letter of the law is for those who seek to save themselves through law-keeping, obedience, works, or personal merit (see Galatians 3:10). For such, absolute perfect obedience to the law is required of them from conception into eternity (again, Galatians 3:10).

Romans 7:6, 2 Corinthians 3:6.

 

[Tenchi]

Just to be clear: I am NOT urging law-keeping - particularly as a means of obtaining God's good graces. We are able as Spirit-minded people to fulfill the righteousness of the Law (Romans 8:4), but this does not mean to keep, in a brittle, fearful and legalistic manner, the letter of the Law. See Galatians 5:13-14; Matthew 22:36-38; 1 Corinthians 13:1-3.

 

[justbyfaith]

Just to be clear: I am NOT urging law-keeping - particularly as a means of obtaining God's good graces. We are able as Spirit-minded people to fulfill the righteousness of the Law (Romans 8:4), but this does not mean to keep, in a brittle, fearful and legalistic manner, the letter of the Law. See Galatians 5:13-14; Matthew 22:36-38; 1 Corinthians 13:1-3.

yes,

Matthew 7:23 w/ Romans 4:15 (death to self = freedom from the law)

Jesus speaking (NLT), Mat 7:21, “Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. Mat 7:22, On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in...

christianforums.net

 

[Hopeful]

Remember this in the case that you should ever be married.
Maybe you will be the perfect husband to your wife.
Be sure to say, "Jesus is the Lord" every time you kneel to clean up your own pee.

Thank you for the exhortation on another way to prove my love for both my Savior and my wife.

 

[Hopeful]

I would also say to you that Luke 6:37 is a moral tenet of holy scripture and an aspect of the love of the Lord...

And that you have also violated it.

If my response to your problem offended you, I apologize.
Thank you for your forgiveness.

 

[Hopeful]

You are incorrect. I have no wish to convince you that you sinned. That is the job of the Holy Spirit. He is there to "convince the world of sin, righteousness and judgment." (John 16:8) But I am very sure that people in the world who suffer under any choice you made that God considers sin would know that you are not sinless. That is the point, actually. Those who claim they are sinless, that I have observed, have a very hard time recognizing that the did someone wrong and even harder time asking for forgiveness from God or man. It goes against their self-esteem.

It certainly was not. You have got to be kidding. You think Jesus wanted to be convinced of something by man???? He was asking them in love to consider if they ought to not to listen to him and respond and to THINK about it. He was not wanting information to test to see if what the thought about himself (which he actually didn't devote much time to thinking about himself as he loved God and others too much to be self absorbed) was correct.

Thank God we are not of this world.

 

[Hopeful]

You notice that he was answering them, not indulging in self absorption as to his sinlessness as compared to others.

You also might notice that not once ever, did he tell men that he could make them totally sin free. He did not offer that even once.

John 8:32-34 is one.

 

[Hopeful]

Absolutely.

Romans 6:1-2 (NASB)
1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

Romans 6:6-11 (NASB)
6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
7 for he who has died is freed from sin.
8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.
10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 2:20 (NASB)
20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

Galatians 5:24 (NASB)
24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Galatians 6:14 (NASB)
14 But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

Colossians 3:1-5 (NASB)
1 Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
2 Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.
3 For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.
5 Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry.

Can the born-again person live perfectly sin-free this side of the grave? No. But they can be far more holy, far less sinful, than many believe they can be. As the Christian lives by faith in what is written above, staying constantly submitted to God's will and way, they are conformed by the Holy Spirit to the truth of their separation from (death) Self (the "old man") and sin, living in always-increasing holiness and fellowship with God.

Don't you mean..."Can the born again person live perfectly sin-free this side of Christ's grave?"
And the answer is YES.?

The great "boogey man" of the works-salvation moralist is the Christian who, understanding God's grace, will throw off all constraining fear and live like the devil. I've never met one of these mythological "Christians." But I have met many legalistic, fear-mongering believers who have resorted to fearful law-keeping rather than loving fellowship with God as the chief aim of their living who have fallen deeply into hypocrisy and a frustrated, nail-biting dynamic with their Heavenly Father. Sad. Very sad.

1 Corinthians 1:9 (NASB)
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

2 Corinthians 13:14 (NASB)
14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.

1 John 1:3 (NASB)
3 what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.
Not "for whatever reason"; because the believer does not really believe the love God has for them (1 John 4:16-19); they don't know who they are in Jesus Christ, living daily by faith in their identity in him (2 Peter 2:2-4; 2 Corinthians 5:7); and neglect to stay in a place of submission to God throughout each day (Romans 21:1; Romans 6:13-22; 1 Peter 5:6; James 4:6-10).

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Hi Tenchi.

I think that there is a difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law.

In the letter of it, we are in violation if we do not wear tassels on our garments. Or, if we violate the food laws.

In the spirit of the law, it is about being obedient to the Holy Spirit on a moment-by-moment basis; and not catering to the flesh or sinful nature.

A person can be disobedient to the letter of the law and yet obedient to the spirit of it (see John 5:16-18, Hebrews 4:15).

In the spirit of the law, food laws have been abolished (see 1 Timothy 4:1-6). And we certainly do not need to wear tassels on our garments.

But the letter of the law is for those who seek to save themselves through law-keeping, obedience, works, or personal merit (see Galatians 3:10). For such, absolute perfect obedience to the law is required of them from conception into eternity (again, Galatians 3:10).

This is pretty good although your examples aren’t ones anyone relates to.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Can sinning be overcome in this life with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Some Preachers and even theologian do not believe that all sinning can be overcome in this life either with or without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Only certain sins can be overcome, thus they leave a 'gap' where sin can continue in our lives.

But people take this to mean that they can keep sinning as there is nothing they can do, or that these 'sins' are not really "hard sins" or "iniquity", but just part of being in a sinful world. Is that correct according to scripture?

Here are some texts on how we choose to heed the desires of our flesh, and for whatever reason, set aside the conviction of the Holy Spirit. "The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak" Mark 14:38.

James 1:14-15 "But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death."

Galatians 5:17 "For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish."

It is true that hardly any preaching against sin is heard these days. So preachers have become comfortable with degrees of sin.

But the new theology of believing one is sinless is worse. It’s an ego that supersedes those who think they know it all.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

This contradicts 1 John 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.


Well, Paul was best Christian I ever heard of and he said he could do it. Do you think he had little faith? Gee, he went to the 3rd heaven and did miracles and still couldn't stop sinning. 5 For I do not understand my own actions [I am baffled and bewildered by them]. I do not practice what I want to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate [and yielding to my human nature, my worldliness—my sinful capacity]. 16 Now if I habitually do what I do not want to do, [that means] I agree with the Law, confessing that it is good (morally excellent).




Well, when you get to heaven you can tell Paul your secret.


Yes, I can stop for 5 minutes too.

Every night when you sleep you go for hours not sinning.

 

[gordon777]

Here are some texts on how we choose to heed the desires of our flesh, and for whatever reason, set aside the conviction of the Holy Spirit. "The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak" Mark 14:38.

James 1:14-15 "But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death."

Galatians 5:17 "For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish."

The thread begins requiring an address to the three scripture quotes ( for the idea of the thread)

Begin at the beginning of the chapter 1 of James, ( why lose out on the meaning being described here ?)


It is JOY, when you fall into various temptations. WHY JOY ?

Because this is the trying of the faith. This works patience, which is a perfect ( perfecting) work, for perfection, to be entire, to want nothing. ( to be complete in God. Galatians 2:10.)

Just look at 1 Peter 1, do we notice this beginning of Peters testimony reveals the very same ? Manifold temptations, which is the trial of the faith, tried with fire, so it can be found with praise and honour, ( the purpose of the trial of the faith.) at the appearing of Jesus Christ, believing in Him we rejoice with joy unspeakable, ( counting it all joy when we fall into divers temptations.) and full of glory, to receive the end of our faith, ( to receive the end of the trial of our faith, letting patience have her perfect work.) even the salvation of our souls.


James 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

1 Peter 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.


James' testimony in chapter 12, now returns to the temptation. Blessed if we endure the temptation, as when we are tried, ( the trying of our faith works patience, to have her perfect work/the trial of our faith might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ.) we shall receive the crown of life to those who love the Lord. ( enduring temptation, working patience to have her perfect work, to be found unto praise and honour at the appearing of Jesus Christ.)

For the men who say they are tempted by God, they are tempted when they are drawn away of their own lust, and enticed. ( they do not endure temptation that way, they do not let patience have her perfect work, they are not found to be unto praise and honour and glory, at the appearing of Jesus Christ.

That lust of men instead of bringing forth the salvation of their souls, brings forth sin, and when it is finished, brings forth death. ( instead of endurance, and patience to have her perfect work, which is praise and honour and glory, and then the salvation of our souls/life. Daniel 11:35. Hebrews 11:17.)


James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.



Galatians 5, shows the exact same testimony from Apostle Paul, ( now we have James, Peter and Paul all saying the same one message.)

Walking in the Spirit is how we do not fulfil the lust of the flesh. ( the men who say God is tempting them, are drawn away of their own lust and enticed.) For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, the Spirit is against the flesh, they are contrary the one to the other. ( so that you cannot do what you would, without the Spirit, because if you walk in the Spirit, that is how a man shall NOT FULFIL THE LUST OF THE FLESH.)


Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.



Now SEE the example of Jesus Christ in Mark 14:38, that was quoted.

Jesus prays to the Father, for the cup to pass from Him, but testifies, not what the Son wants, but what the Father wants.

Jesus comes to the disciples ( who do not have the same Spirit of Jesus Christ, until Christ was glorified.) and they could not watch with Jesus for that hour. ( the hour of temptation, which comes upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Revelation 3:10.)

Jesus tells the disciples to watch and pray. ( as we see the example of Jesus Christ, who watched and prayed in His hour of temptation, and whose flesh was strong enough to endure.)

READ THE WORDS, IN THE DAYS OF HIS FLESH. Jesus offers up prayers, and was heard in that He feared. Though Jesus Christ is a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered, and being made perfect, ( let patience have her perfect work.) He BECAME the AUTHOR, of eternal SALVATION, unto all them that obey Him. ( who believe in His testimony, and endure temptations as He exampled for us to also obey, as He learned OBEDIENCE, by the things which He suffered.)

Lay aside the sin which easily besets us, run with patience, ( let patience have her perfect work.) the race set before us, looking to Jesus the author, (He became the AUTHOR of eternal SALVATION.) and finisher, ( found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ, receiving the end of our faith, even the salvation of our souls.) of our faith, who for the joy ( count it all JOY when we fall into various temptations.) set before Him, ENDURED the cross, ( blessed is the man who ENDURES temptation.) to set down at the right hand of the throne of God.



Mark 14:35 And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.
36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.
37 And he cometh, and findeth them sleeping, and saith unto Peter, Simon, sleepest thou? couldest not thou watch one hour?
38 Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak.

Hebrews 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

 

[gordon777]

Its not sinless per say, as all have sinned and fallen short, it is becoming perfect before God, honest and upright in how we are now. That is where Christ comes in, Who cleanses us from sin, and through the Holy Spirit transforms us and sanctifies us..

Christ_empowered: "I think human frailty is under appreciated in modern Christianity. We are creatures He is the creator. As sanctification continues a believer become not only less sinful but also more morally upright….​

Still not sinless until glorification."



The next quote, ( all have fallen short of the glory of God.) needs to be addressed likewise. ( of not being sinless until glorification.)


Now read with me Romans 3 first. The answer to all falling short of the glory of God ( by sinning.) is the free justification and grace of the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, God setting Christ our Lord forth to be forgiveness, through faith in His blood ( it was not free for Him.) declaring the righteousness of Christ, for the remission of the past sins, through Gods forbearance, declaring Christ's righteousness, for Him to be just, to be the justifier of him which believes in Jesus. ( believes in the cost of His blood, which He bought/purchased us with HIs own blood. Acts 20:28.)

Romans 8 explains more. The Spirit bears witness with our Spirit that we are the children of God. Joint heirs with Christ ( having the same Spirit.) if we suffer with Him, to be glorified together. ( Christ endured the cross in the hour of temptation, we are blessed if we endure temptation, the hour of temptation that comes on all the world to try those who dwell on the earth.)

We are saved by hope, we hope for what we see not, with patience we wait for it. ( Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 1 Peter 1:8...But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing. James 1:4.)

God foreknows us, to predestine us to be conformed to the image of His Son, ( for Jesus's example of being the firstborn among many brothers/ being obedient to the death of the cross, being made perfect ,He became the author of eternal salvation to them who obey Him.)

More than that, those who God predestined,, He also called: and those He called, He also justified: and those He justified, He also glorified. ( ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory.)

God is for us, who can be against us ?

God spared not his own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall he not with Him also freely give us all things? ( According as His divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him that hath called us to glory and virtue. 2 Peter 1:3.)


Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justified. ( that He might be just, and the justifier of him which believes in Jesus.)




Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Romans 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Romans 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

1 Corinthians 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

 

[gordon777]

If anyone can see that the testimony of Jesus Christ ( belief in it.) is how to overcome sinning, I also have began a thread in theology, of the difference between believing in the earth, or in Heaven.

 

[gordon777]

If you define sin as the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4), then of course no one can keep the law perfectly (Galatians 6:13) and therefore all of us are defined as sinners.

However, Christians are not under the law (Romans 6:14), are dead to the law (Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19) and are delivered from the law (Romans 7:6) as concerning condemnation.

Sin is now defined for us as walking according to the flesh (Romans 8:4).

Under that definition we can indeed be victorious according to the scripture I posted in the post that is previous to this one.

Looking at those single verse quotes, ( 1 John 3:4. Galatians 6:13.) we see they of the circumcision do not keep the law ( of circumcision.)

The believers in Christ glory not in the flesh ( circumcision, of the law, of the flesh.) but they glory in Christ, where circumcision nor uncircumcision is anything, as the new creature is everything. ( for the world to be crucified to us, and we to the world.)

Circumcision profits if we keep the law, (For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law.) but if they are a breaker of the law, their circumcision is counted as uncircumcision.

We being the uncircumcision are to KEEP, the righteousness of the law, to be counted as circumcision. ( unlike the circumcision, who break the law, and are then counted as uncircumcision.)

The uncircumcision fulfils the law, ( not breaks the law, as those of the circumcision only, do.) to judge those who by the letter, ( without the Spirit of Jesus Christ.) and circumcision, ( in the flesh.) transgress ( break.) the law. ( because they of the Spirit keep it, and would make no sense if they do the same as the transgressors., of the flesh.)

To purify ourselves even as Christ is pure. ( through the hope of faith in Christ.) Christ was manifested to take away our sins ( of transgression in the law of circumcision.) as there is no sin in Christ.

If we abide in Him, ( in the Spirit of Jesus Christ, and not in the law of circumcision, in the flesh, who alone transgress the law.) we sin not ( we fulfil the law.) because those who sin, ( transgress in the law of circumcision, being yet in the flesh.) have not seen Him, nor known Him. Little children let no man deceive them, he that does righteousness, IS RIGHTEOUS, EVEN AS HE IS RIGHTEOUS. ( in truth and in deed, not in appearance as the Pharisees. Matthew 23:28.)



Romans 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

Galatians 6:13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.
14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.


1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.



The circumcision then, are those who worship God in the Spirit, ( not those in the flesh that transgress, instead of those who fulfil.) to rejoice in Christ Jesus to have nothing to do with the flesh.

Those who fulfil, fulfil the royal law, to love our neighbour as ourselves, to do well.

To commit sin is to be convinced of the law as transgressors, for, whosoever keeps the whole law, yet offends in one point. ( they are guilty of all.)

To not become a transgressor of the law, knowing we shall be judged by the law of liberty. ( Christ set us free from sin, to judge those of the circumcision, who break the law, by our keeping of it, being the circumcision of the Spirit, not the flesh.)



Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

 

[gordon777]

I don't believe that "sinless perfection" describes me by faith because it is attainable.

1) "sinless perfection" is a misnomer that is often applied to the doctrine of entire sanctification as a straw man that is easily toppled by 1 John 1:8. While entire sanctification as a doctrine does not state that sin is eradicated from the body; but that rather, it is rendered dead as an element dwelling within the body, so that it no longer has any authority over my behaviour.

Quotation of one verse, topples nothing, instead what is toppled is the attempt to establish anything that way.

The message is delivered to those in the dark, that is why the message is that God is light.

We cant say we have fellowship with God, while walking in darkness ( as unbelievers do.) that is lying, it is not the truth.

But we have to begin to walk in the light ( with no darkness at all) as He is in the light, to have fellowship ( in the light) with one another., for the blood of Christ to cleanse us from all sin ( of darkness.)

If ( those yet in the dark, who say they have fellowship with Him that way.) say they have no sin, ( no darkness.) they deceive themselves, no truth is in them. ( walking in darkness/sin, is lying, and not doing the truth.)

If we confess our sins, He will be faithful and just to forgive them, ( those walking in darkness were never forgiven yet.) to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Those who say they have not sinned ( who claim to have fellowship with Him and are yet walking in sin/darkness.) make God a liar, His word is not in them. ( to do the truth is to walk in light, not darkness.)



1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

[gordon777]

As I have said, my bad deeds will burn away as wood, hay, and stubble, while my good deeds will remain as gold, sliver, and precious gems: because I am a believer in Christ (1 Corinthians 3:11-15).

That will be my judgment.

There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (John 5:24).

Is that what 1 Corinthians 3, is saying, that we have bad deeds, and good also ?

Or does it give two choices, of gold and silver, or of wood and stubble ?

The mans work shall be manifest, of what sort it is. ( Gold and silver, or wood and stubble.)

The day declares the work of every man, because it shall be revealed by fire. ( tried by fire.) If the work is burned, they suffer loss, ( in their faith being tried by the fire.) but they are saved by that fire.

But we are to know that we are the temple of God, that temple cannot be defiled, or God will destroy us.

So every one should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour, not in lust, as the Gentiles who know not God that way., as we are forewarned and testified.

No man is to go and defraud his brother in any matter, ( no bad deeds to be done, at all) because the Lord is the avenger of all who do that.



1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

1 Thessalonians 4:4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.


In a great house there are vessels to honour and vessels to dishonour ( we are to hold our vessel in sanctification and honour.)

The man has to purge himself from them, to be a vessel unto honour, sanctified and meet for the Masters use, prepared unto every good work. ( no bad deeds at all, which the vessels of wood and of earth do, in dishonour.).)



2 Timothy 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

 

[gordon777]

It does not preclude that we do not have a nature of flesh.

I am in agreement with you that we do not have to walk according to it.

Some are of nature of flesh, and some are not, it cant be both ways.

Divorced/dead to the law, means nothing is remaining, or we could not bring forth fruit to God.

We cant be in any oldness of the letter, that is why it is TESTIFIED, all old is PASSED AWAY, ALL IS BECOME NEW.

To not be in the flesh, is to be in the Spirit, ( when we were in the flesh, it worked in our bodies to bring forth fruit to death.)

Now we serve in newness of Spirit, which is when we walk in the Spirit, to not fulfil the lust of the flesh.



Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

 

[gordon777]

So, the law still applies as a righteous standard to define sin and the only way to be truly perfect is to obey it perfectly.

But if you obey it perfectly, are you not justified by it?

Gal 5:4, Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

What a funny thought, to do perfectly, and yet remain unjust.

Begin in with Romans 2, ( between those in the flesh, who cannot please God, compared to those not in the flesh, but in the Spirit dwelling in them.)

Those in the flesh, sin in the law, or out of the law. ( to perish, and to be judged by the law, where they perish for sinning.)

The doers of the law shall be justified, not the hearers of the law., they are NOT JUST BEFORE GOD.

The Gentiles do by nature the things contained in the law, to be a law2 unto themselves, showing the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience now bearing witness, accusing or excusing. ( judging those who are only hearers, or being judged by not being just.)

Abraham believed God, to have his faith counted ass righteousness, we are to believe God of His testimony of His Son.

But to those who believe in the law of circumcision, they are in debt to do the whole law, instead of in grace to believe that God justifies the ungodly. ( showing the work of the law written in their heart.)



Romans 2:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Galatians 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

 

[gordon777]

Where is Jesus saying "I am sinless" in there? And if we asked your wife and friends that question, would they agree that you are just like Jesus, sinless? You see, who did he make the judge of him being sinless? The scripture? His pride? NO, the people who saw him. That is the standard. I know of no person who espouses that they are sinless who is willing to ask anyone who knows them that question. Are you willing? I mean with time and enough posts, we can see if you sin in what you write, but that is limited as there is a delete button. There is no delete button when we sin in real life.

Maybe this part where Jesus is speaking about those who commit sin being servants of sin.

Jesus shows the difference between the servant ( of sin) and the Son, how the servant of sin abide not for ever, but the Son abides ever. ( was from forever, and is for ever.)

That is how the Son can make us free ( from sin) as He has declared, how He is free. ( abiding ever.)

Romans 6 continues, we were made free ( from sin) to become servants to God, for the end everlasting life. ( the Son testified for us, how He is not a servant of sin, but is free, to make us free, to abide with him for ever, as He abides ever. Those who are not free, cannot make anyone else free, and only those who are free, can help others to also be free)



John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.