Can sinning be overcome?

[justbyfaith]

So obeying the commands of Jesus Christ will assure my destruction.
I disagree.
Jesus made it possible to walk as He did.
Thanks be to God.

edited the post.

 

[Hopeful]

But if you don't clean up your pee when you go to the bathroom, you are not doing unto your wife as you would have her do unto you and therefore are not loving her the way you should.

You said it.

But yes, by faith, we can obtain the Holy Spirit (Galatians 3:14) and the love of the Lord through the Holy Spirit (Romans 5:5).

By faith we can do nearly anything.

 

[justbyfaith]

You said it.

Remember this in the case that you should ever be married.

Maybe you will be the perfect husband to your wife.

Be sure to say, "Jesus is the Lord" every time you kneel to clean up your own pee.

 

[justbyfaith]

I would also say to you that Luke 6:37 is a moral tenet of holy scripture and an aspect of the love of the Lord...

And that you have also violated it.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Years ago before I got saved, I was attending a home bible study. The guy doing the teaching believed he was sinless even though it says in the bible that not one of us is without sin. I don't quite understand how anyone can be that blind. I wasn't even saved yet and I knew better. I do believe some sin can be overcome but, I also feel as though it's a lifelong fight to control it due to our natural sin nature.

Marci,

What you will find is that these kind of christians will quote pages of scripture that promise them that they are sinless. They are perfect, in other words. This appeals right to self pride so it’s held very strongly. The man in the mirror is sinless. The man in the mirror is great, just like Jesus.

What they don’t do is look at how they actually behave. They don’t talk about how much they do for others or love others. Treating others as they’d like to be treated isn’t mentioned, just how sinless they are.

Jesus never ever mentioned how sinless he was. The closer a man gets to being without sin, the less he thinks and speaks of himself at all. The farther away a man is from the life God desires (without sin), the more he thinks and speaks about himself. None of the prophets of God, as they became mature in His Kingdom, spoke of themselves, their state of greatness (made no mistake, sinless is very great) but thought of God and others.

 

[justbyfaith]

Jesus never ever mentioned how sinless he was.

Jhn 8:46, Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Jhn 8:46, Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

Where is Jesus saying "I am sinless" in there? And if we asked your wife and friends that question, would they agree that you are just like Jesus, sinless? You see, who did he make the judge of him being sinless? The scripture? His pride? NO, the people who saw him. That is the standard. I know of no person who espouses that they are sinless who is willing to ask anyone who knows them that question. Are you willing? I mean with time and enough posts, we can see if you sin in what you write, but that is limited as there is a delete button. There is no delete button when we sin in real life.

 

[justbyfaith]

Marci,

What you will find is that these kind of christians will quote pages of scripture that promise them that they are sinless. They are perfect, in other words. This appeals right to self pride so it’s held very strongly. The man in the mirror is sinless. The man in the mirror is great, just like Jesus.

What they don’t do is look at how they actually behave. They don’t talk about how much they do for others or love others. Treating others as they’d like to be treated isn’t mentioned, just how sinless they are.

Jesus never ever mentioned how sinless he was. The closer a man gets to being without sin, the less he thinks and speaks of himself at all. The farther away a man is from the life God desires (without sin), the more he thinks and speaks about himself. None of the prophets of God, as they became mature in His Kingdom, spoke of themselves, their state of greatness (made no mistake, sinless is very great) but thought of God and others.

I hold to this doctrine and admit that I am a sinner saved by grace.

So, how does that fit into your paradigm?

Leprosy in the Bible is a type of sin.

In Matthew 8:1-4, Jesus healed a leper of his leprosy completely (cleansed him).

But he told that very leper not to go and broadcast what had been done to him;

But rather, to shew himself to the priests and have them examine him concerning the healing of his leprosy.

In a similar manner, if we have been cleansed of spiritual leprosy (sin), we do not go around telling everyone that we are sinless.

We show it by our lives.

We let the "priests" examine us to determine whether or not we have been truly cleansed.

Of course, if Jesus has cleansed us, we are cleansed; even if that has not been ratified by a "priest".

 

[justbyfaith]

Where is Jesus saying "I am sinless" in there? And if we asked your wife and friends that question, would they agree that you are just like Jesus, sinless? You see, who did he make the judge of him being sinless? The scripture? His pride? NO, the people who saw him. That is the standard. I know of no person who espouses that they are sinless who is willing to ask anyone who knows them that question. Are you willing? I mean with time and enough posts, we can see if you sin in what you write, but that is limited as there is a delete button. There is no delete button when we sin in real life.

If I were to ask you that question, I am certain that you would be able to convince me of the fact that I am a sinner, whether long time or short.

When Jesus asked it, it was a challenge to the people to convince Him that He was a sinner. Of course no one would ever be able to because He was without sin; and in this His challenge qualifies as a claim to sinlessness.

 

[justbyfaith]

The farther away a man is from the life God desires (without sin), the more he thinks and speaks about himself.

Jhn 8:12, Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
Jhn 8:13, The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.
Jhn 8:14, Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

If I were to ask you that question, I am certain that you would be able to convince me of the fact that I am a sinner, whether long time or short.

You are incorrect. I have no wish to convince you that you sinned. That is the job of the Holy Spirit. He is there to "convince the world of sin, righteousness and judgment." (John 16:8) But I am very sure that people in the world who suffer under any choice you made that God considers sin would know that you are not sinless. That is the point, actually. Those who claim they are sinless, that I have observed, have a very hard time recognizing that the did someone wrong and even harder time asking for forgiveness from God or man. It goes against their self-esteem.

When Jesus asked it, it was a challenge to the people to convince Him that He was a sinner. Of course no one would ever be able to because He was without sin; and in this His challenge qualifies as a claim to sinlessness.

It certainly was not. You have got to be kidding. You think Jesus wanted to be convinced of something by man???? He was asking them in love to consider if they ought to not to listen to him and respond and to THINK about it. He was not wanting information to test to see if what the thought about himself (which he actually didn't devote much time to thinking about himself as he loved God and others too much to be self absorbed) was correct.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Jhn 8:12, Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
Jhn 8:13, The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.
Jhn 8:14, Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.

You notice that he was answering them, not indulging in self absorption as to his sinlessness as compared to others.

You also might notice that not once ever, did he tell men that he could make them totally sin free. He did not offer that even once.

 

[justbyfaith]

You are incorrect. I have no wish to convince you that you sinned. That is the job of the Holy Spirit. He is there to "convince the world of sin, righteousness and judgment." (John 16:8) But I am very sure that people in the world who suffer under any choice you made that God considers sin would know that you are not sinless. That is the point, actually. Those who claim they are sinless, that I have observed, have a very hard time recognizing that the did someone wrong and even harder time asking for forgiveness from God or man. It goes against their self-esteem.

I am certain that if you set about to convince me that I am a sinner, that you would not be unsuccessful; because I certainly am one. Of course you could be especially successful if you were relying on the Holy Spirit to do the convicting through words that are spoken by you.

It certainly was not. You have got to be kidding. You think Jesus wanted to be convinced of something by man???? He was asking them in love to consider if they ought to not to listen to him and respond and to THINK about it. He was not wanting information to test to see if what the thought about himself (which he actually didn't devote much time to thinking about himself as he loved God and others too much to be self absorbed) was correct.

So, is it your contention that Jesus was a sinner?

It is clear to me, if not to you, that Jesus was challenging them to find any sin in Him that they could find. This was part of His claim to be the Messiah; because clearly, no one would ever be able to find any sin in Him.

Thus, His challenge qualifies as a claim to sinlessness. This is as clear as day to me if not to you.

Perhaps 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 is a factor?

You notice that he was answering them, not indulging in self absorption as to his sinlessness as compared to others.

He claimed to be the light of the world in that passage. Is that compatible with being a sinner?

 

[justbyfaith]

You also might notice that not once ever, did he tell men that he could make them totally sin free. He did not offer that even once.

Have you never read John 8:31-36?

I suggest that you read it now.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I am certain that if you set about to convince me that I am a sinner, that you would not be unsuccessful; because I certainly am one. Of course you could be especially successful if you were relying on the Holy Spirit to do the convicting through words that are spoken by you.

You totally misunderstand me. I have no wish to convince you that you are a sinner. Why would I care? But I have to ask, do you know what it is to be convicted of sin by the Holy Spirit? Sorry to ask but your words betray a kind of thinking that does not reflect a life of experiencing the Holy Spirit correcting and convicting. You seem to think that I think the Holy Spirit will do the "convicting through words that are spoken by me" (sic). Does no one in your church teach how the Holy Spirit convicts? Do they teach it is others telling you your sin?

So, is it your contention that Jesus was a sinner?

Never said that. You are in a difficult position, aren't you? You cannot answer the problems to your position so you change what was said to ask me about a position I never said. I call that chaff.

It is clear to me, if not to you, that Jesus was challenging them to find any sin in Him that they could find. This was part of His claim to be the Messiah; because clearly, no one would ever be able to find any sin in Him.

Jesus did not suffer from lack of self esteem and needed to be assured that he was sinless. He never claimed to be Messiah by his sinlessness. Look at what he said. When asked if he was the Messiah by the disciples of John he did not tell them, "hey look at me and how sinless I am!!!" He told them to look at what he was DOING!!! He told them to look at the obvious evidence. Jesus did not want men to think of him as perfect and wonderful and sinless. He wanted them to love God and man with all their being and to obey his teachings. He did not preach on his sinlessness at all.

He claimed to be the light of the world in that passage. Is that compatible with being a sinner?

Is that like saying he is the incandescent or flame or torch or sunbeam of the world?

All of those who espouse that they are sinless that I have met cannot but talk about their greatness (sinlessness) and Jesus never did this. A light, by the way, is never there so that we can look at the light. By the light, we see the world clearly. We do not see the light more clearly.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Have you never read John 8:31-36?

I suggest that you read it now.

No, you pull up the verse that you think is Jesus talking about how sinless he is. So far you read a passage and thought Jesus needed self assurance that he is sinless and so was asking his enemies to help him regain his flagging self-esteem. I am doubtful is says that Jesus is telling others that he is sinless.

 

[justbyfaith]

You totally misunderstand me. I have no wish to convince you that you are a sinner. Why would I care? But I have to ask, do you know what it is to be convicted of sin by the Holy Spirit? Sorry to ask but your words betray a kind of thinking that does not reflect a life of experiencing the Holy Spirit correcting and convicting. You seem to think that I think the Holy Spirit will do the "convicting through words that are spoken by me" (sic). Does no one in your church teach how the Holy Spirit convicts? Do they teach it is others telling you your sin?

The Holy Spirit convicts us of sin using His word. Duh...

You think that His word is never preached by people?

He did not preach on his sinlessness at all.

That is a lie. He challenged them to prove that He was a sinner knowing that they would never be able to. That was, in effect, a claim to sinlessness.

No, you pull up the verse that you think is Jesus talking about how sinless he is. So far you read a passage and thought Jesus needed self assurance that he is sinless and so was asking his enemies to help him regain his flagging self-esteem. I am doubtful is says that Jesus is telling others that he is sinless.

Again you seem to be contending for the idea that Jesus wasn't sinless. You said before that you are not doing that, so I assume that you believe that Jesus would never mention the fact that He was sinless. But why wouldn't He? since it is the truth.

Paul the apostle considered that he was free from guilt of the blood of all men because he had declared to them the whole counsel of God.

Do you really think therefore that Jesus, who was greater than Paul, would leave out such an important tidbit of doctrine while ministering in His earthly life?

Also, the question was whether Jesus told people that they could be set free from the power of sin or not. Did you read the passage I gave you?

Here it is again (I will quote it this time for your convenience):

Jhn 8:31, Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
Jhn 8:32, And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Jhn 8:33, They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
Jhn 8:34, Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Jhn 8:35, And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
Jhn 8:36, If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

 

[justbyfaith]

Jesus did not suffer from lack of self esteem and needed to be assured that he was sinless. He never claimed to be Messiah by his sinlessness. Look at what he said. When asked if he was the Messiah by the disciples of John he did not tell them, "hey look at me and how sinless I am!!!" He told them to look at what he was DOING!!! He told them to look at the obvious evidence. Jesus did not want men to think of him as perfect and wonderful and sinless. He wanted them to love God and man with all their being and to obey his teachings.

Since Christ's sinlessness is an essential aspect of the gospel, of course He mentioned the fact during His life on earth.

It should be clear that if He had sin, He couldn't die for the sins of the world. According to the law, the lamb that is sacrificed must be without blemish and without spot.

And Jesus was and is, "the Lamb of God who taketh away the sin of the world." (John 1:29,36).

 

[Dorothy Mae]

justbyfaith, that you think I would enjoy finding that you are not sinless makes me wonder if you understand the determination to follow Jesus as a life goal. Those who follow Jesus do not want to find the sin in others. They usually are fairly busy, especially at first, with the Holy Spirit pointing out their own sin. Did you learn to escape this by assuming scriptures describe you as sinless so you can avoid that unpleasant cleaning? Just a thought.

It occurred to me that those who espouse a sinless state, must find it especially difficult to respond to the Holy Spirit convicting them of sin. There is likely a special resistance to admitting they have sinned as theologically, it cannot be. There is a gap in any case, between reality and their theology.

I thought of a picture of this. Suppose a roomful of Christians from different theologies were together and they behaved very badly towards another person. They had convinced themselves it was justified but someone came in and told them what they had just done was wrong and in fact, very wrong. Now the calvinist and Armenian and baptist and lutheran and catholic and so on down the line would all have no problem with admitting this was sin. The Calvinist thinks he is going to heaven no matter what, the Aremnian would repent, the Lutheran might consider this to be covered under the general asking for forgiveness done every Sunday and the Catholic would go to Confession and tell the priest. But the one who believes as you do would struggle to even admit it was sin. That group would likely see and admit it was wrong but no sin. Cannot be sin because they are sinless. This means that perhaps, all but the last one would receive forgiveness and grace. The last one, you, would not receive forgiveness because they think it is not a sin. Deeds not sin do not need forgiveness and so no forgiveness is granted. It is not requested. There is a kind of danger in your position, I should think.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The Holy Spirit convicts us of sin using His word. Duh...

You think that His word is never preached by people?

So if one avoids reading the Bible and never goes to church, they are never convicted of sin? They have bypassed that?

That is a lie. He challenged them to prove that He was a sinner knowing that they would never be able to. That was, in effect, a claim to sinlessness.

Ah, so not you accuse me of lying. I knew it would not take long. He did not care whether they thought of him as a sinner or not.

Again you seem to be contending for the idea that Jesus wasn't sinless. You said before that you are not doing that, so I assume that you believe that Jesus would never mention the fact that He was sinless. But why wouldn't He? since it is the truth.

No, I am not. But what I am really saying you have no answer for so you set up a straw man argument.

Paul the apostle considered that he was free from guilt of the blood of all men because he had declared to them the whole counsel of God.

Because of what HE, Paul, had done. Is that your position? You sure you want to say that? Paul's works made him free from the guilt of the blood of all men?

Do you really think therefore that Jesus, who was greater than Paul, would leave out such an important tidbit of doctrine while ministering in His earthly life?

It was not important to him. You think it was but it was not. I can tell you what was important to him...loving God and loving man. That was what mattered to him. I think this theology breeds a self-focus that is unattractive.

Also, the question was whether Jesus told people that they could be set free from the power of sin or not. Did you read the passage I gave you?

Here it is again (I will quote it this time for your convenience):

Jhn 8:31, Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
Jhn 8:32, And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Jhn 8:33, They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
Jhn 8:34, Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Jhn 8:35, And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
Jhn 8:36, If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

John wrote that if anyone says he is without sin he is a liar and the truth is not in him.

The problem is this. You read the scriptures and claim they personally describe your behavior no matter how you really behave. This is adapting a blindness. It comes right from pride in the self. You will give me all kinds of scriptures that prove that you are just like Jesus, perfect and sinless because Jesus said you can be so you are no matter how you really treat people.