Not appropriate to the discussion.
"Ever heard of repentance from sin?
A false repentance, one you have to repeat ad-nauseum, is just a lie to God.
There is no salvation at the end of that path."
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Tired of all the political strife and infighting?
Find out how Christians are supposed to act in the following study
https://christianforums.net/threads/charismatic-bible-studies-1-peter-2-11-17.109823/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Can you continue to knowingly sin and remain a Christian?
"Ever heard of repentance from sin?
A false repentance, one you have to repeat ad-nauseum, is just a lie to God.
There is no salvation at the end of that path."
Consecrated Life
Member
Go on ?
What did the "Law" say was payment for David's Murder and Adultery ?
So you are a fig born of a grape vine?
Can zebras bring forth monkeys?
The seed determines the children.
No sinner has been reborn of God's seed.
A true repentance is still there for them though.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Because I believe in the Son of God my sins are instantly forgiven by the Son of God that I believe in to forgive my sins. And so I am always faultless and without blame and in right standing with God. He always sees me in his perfect righteousness. My sins, however, may rob me of the felt assurance that I always stand guilt free in the eyes of God. But as John says, even if our hearts condemn us God is greater than our hearts and so the truth of our salvation and our sonship remains in spite of our feelings (1 John 3:20-21).
Not being very studious of the OT's punishments, I would imagine it was death on both counts.
Do you think there were two witnesses to testify against the king of Israel?
I did find this..."Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the Lord, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.
10 Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife.
11 Thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.
12 For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.
13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said unto David, The Lord also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.
14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die." (2 Sam 12:9-14)
As it is written..."Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth." (John 9:32)
And..."For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil." (1 Peter 3:12)
After you permanently repent of sin, God will her you.
John wrote..."We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not." (1 John 5:18)
Whoever taught you your doctrine didn't want you to forsake sin.
You quoted Scripture showing that God remitted the sins of David; we have no Scripture of this sort for Ananias & Sapphira. What we do know is that they died in their sin of lying, and then we have what is written about liars.
Revelation 21
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
journeymanisnothing
Member
Hello Jethro Bodine.
I have to tell ya bro, John is saying if our hearts condemn us, it's because we know we're doing wrong. I believe John means God also knows because he's greater.
He's warning the church.
It defies logic to say that a backslider is truly saved. What's more, Peter said that there were things that we are to do to make our calling and election sure.
2 Peter 1
[3] According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
[4] Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
[5] And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
[6] And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
[7] And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
[8] For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[9] But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
[10]Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
[11] For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
In the Scripture that you cited, Jesus said that His sheep hear His voice and follow Him. Backsliders are no longer following Jesus; they are serving their flesh, not Jesus. No man can serve two masters. We either serve Jesus or sin. When Jesus forgave the woman caught in adultery, this is what He said:
John 8
[10] When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
[11] She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
[12] Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
When Jesus spoke, He referred to darkness as being sin.
John 3
[17]For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
[18] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
[19] And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
[20] For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
1 John 1
[5] This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
[6]If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
[7] But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
So friend, as you can see, we cannot serve darkness and the Light too. It's one or the other. Backsliders are currently serving darkness again; they would need to confess and forsake their sins to be readmitted onto the narrow road of Salvation. Otherwise, they will die in their sins and go to hell. Tragic indeed. The cry is "Please turn to Jesus while you still have time!".
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David was to die under the Law, but Mercy stepped in. On the other hand, Achan was not granted this mercy, and he & his family were stoned to death and burned.
In the New Testament, Ananias and his wife Sapphira were not granted this Mercy either.
Consecrated Life
Member
Just death ?
We all have been appointed a time to die by God after all.
Remember the burning question that began this conversation?
What would have been the state of David's salvation had God caused Him to die at that time?
Consecrated Life
Member
Just death ?
We all have been appointed a time to die by God after all.
Remember the burning question that began this conversation?
What would have been the state of David's salvation had God caused Him to die at that time?
Calvin studied Augustine, Augustine studied Paul, and Paul was taught by Scripture and fine-tuned by the Holy Spirit.Like it or not, everyone is eventually labeled either an Arminian (free will) or a Calvinist (predestination).
But in my case it no longer applies. Calvin and Arminius fit the analogy of two blind men, one holding the tail and the other the trunk of an elephant. They can't agree what an elephant's appearance is because what they feel is radically different.
I saw the elephant body connecting the trunk and tail and can truthfully say there is no conflict between Peter's statement we are elected according to God's foreknowledge, and Paul who says it wasn't conditioned on anything in us now.
What if the Bible Teaches Both Predestination and Free Will? | End Time News
What if the Bible Teaches Both Predestination and Free Will? Scripture says divine election is conditioned "according to the foreknowledge of God" (1 Pt. 1:2): Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood...endtimenews.net
As for eternal life being perishable, that is illogical so I don't agree with you Christians can temporary receive the gift of eternal life. Then they never were gifted with it at all.
Then the gospel should be, "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and maybe you will be saved." Or:
Instead of this:
14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 "that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life (Jn. 3:14-16 NKJ)
This is how it should read if you are right:
14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 "that whoever believes in Him might not perish if they still have eternal life when they die.
16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him perhaps won't perish as long as they didn't lose everlasting life.
You must've ignored where Jesus said NO ONE can pluck the sheep out of His Father's hand and His hand.
You also ignore the part where Jesus Promised the sheep ETERNAL LIFE.
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. Jn 10:28–29.
You're not being honest with the Scripture.
Unfortunately, Calvin was not as sound a logician as Sherlock Holmes, if he were blindness to his own self-contradiction would not exist.
For example, Peter says:
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. (1 Pet. 1:1 KJV)
Calvin's self-contradiction:
After first admitting "elect according to the foreknowledge of God" means "God knew before the world was created whom he had elected for salvation". Calvin then smears as "sophist" and mere imagination the idea God elected according to His knowledge of the person He knew!!!
Read it for yourself:
"However, he at the same time reminds us whence that election flows, by which we are separated for salvation, that we may not perish with the world; for he says, according to the foreknowledge of God. This is the fountain and the first cause: God knew before the world was created whom he had elected for salvation.
But we ought wisely to consider what this precognition or foreknowledge is. For the sophists, in order to obscure the grace of God, imagine that the merits of each are foreseen by God, and that thus the reprobate are distinguished from the elect, as every one proves himself worthy of this or that lot. But Scripture everywhere sets the counsel of God, on which is founded our salvation, in opposition to our merits. Hence, when Peter calls them elect according to the precognition of God, he intimates that the cause of it depends on nothing else but on God alone, for he of his own free will has chosen us. Then the foreknowledge of God excludes every worthiness on the part of man. We have treated this subject more at large in the first chapter of the Epistle to the Ephesians, and in other places.-Calvin, J., Translated by Owen, J. (2010). Commentaries on the Catholic Epistles (pp. 24–25). Logos Bible Software.
Sherlock Holmes would have concluded from Peter's statement, and Paul's insistence Election is not according to anything we are or do now, that there are TWO versions of us in the Mind of God.
One exists only in God's Foreknowledge, the other exists today in this fallen realm.
God could elect according to the "unfallen version" of us before He created the world, and not according to what we are now.
Scripture implies what God foreknew:
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Rom. 8:28-29 NKJ)
In God's Omniscience, He knows all who would come into existence by His creation. Like "highlighted text" that makes one see some words "before the others", God "foreknows those who loved Him after He loved them first", loving them even more. As for those who did not, God ignored them. That is why nothing is said about the Reprobate in Romans 8:28ff. They are irrelevant.
What if the Bible Teaches Both Predestination and Free Will? | End Time News
What if the Bible Teaches Both Predestination and Free Will? Scripture says divine election is conditioned "according to the foreknowledge of God" (1 Pt. 1:2): Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood...
endtimenews.net
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Before God created anything He had a book of life of ALL those whom He by predestination, calling, and election HE WOULD SAVE.Unfortunately, Calvin was not as sound a logician as Sherlock Holmes, if he were blindness to his own self-contradiction would not exist.
For example, Peter says:
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. (1 Pet. 1:1 KJV)
Calvin's self-contradiction:
After first admitting "elect according to the foreknowledge of God" means "God knew before the world was created whom he had elected for salvation". Calvin then smears as "sophist" and mere imagination the idea God elected according to His knowledge of the person He knew!!!
Read it for yourself:
"However, he at the same time reminds us whence that election flows, by which we are separated for salvation, that we may not perish with the world; for he says, according to the foreknowledge of God. This is the fountain and the first cause: God knew before the world was created whom he had elected for salvation.
But we ought wisely to consider what this precognition or foreknowledge is. For the sophists, in order to obscure the grace of God, imagine that the merits of each are foreseen by God, and that thus the reprobate are distinguished from the elect, as every one proves himself worthy of this or that lot. But Scripture everywhere sets the counsel of God, on which is founded our salvation, in opposition to our merits. Hence, when Peter calls them elect according to the precognition of God, he intimates that the cause of it depends on nothing else but on God alone, for he of his own free will has chosen us. Then the foreknowledge of God excludes every worthiness on the part of man. We have treated this subject more at large in the first chapter of the Epistle to the Ephesians, and in other places.-Calvin, J., Translated by Owen, J. (2010). Commentaries on the Catholic Epistles (pp. 24–25). Logos Bible Software.
Sherlock Holmes would have concluded from Peter's statement, and Paul's insistence Election is not according to anything we are or do now, that there are TWO versions of us in the Mind of God.
One exists only in God's Foreknowledge, the other exists today in this fallen realm.
God could elect according to the "unfallen version" of us before He created the world, and not according to what we are now.
Scripture implies what God foreknew:
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Rom. 8:28-29 NKJ)
In God's Omniscience, He knows all who would come into existence by His creation. Like "highlighted text" that makes one see some words "before the others", God "foreknows those who loved Him after He loved them first", loving them even more. As for those who did not, God ignored them. That is why nothing is said about the Reprobate in Romans 8:28ff. They are irrelevant.
What if the Bible Teaches Both Predestination and Free Will? | End Time News
What if the Bible Teaches Both Predestination and Free Will? Scripture says divine election is conditioned "according to the foreknowledge of God" (1 Pt. 1:2): Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood...endtimenews.net
Salvation is of the LORD, Jonah said.
Every part of it.
We are all passive in our redemption. He acts alone.
Well, not entirely. The Son and The Holy Spirit each have a Ministry towards that end.
That begged the question. Peter says we are elected according to God's foreknowledge of us.
Yes, that was before He created anything, but that isn't pertinent to the question "is election according to God's foreknowledge" or not?
Peter says it is:
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. (1 Pet. 1:1 KJV)
Sherlock might ask Calvin: "Can God really ignore what He knows when He elects?" Would not ignoring what one knows during the selection process be a sign of feeble-mindedness, or insanity? Can you produce examples of human creators who ignore what they know when creating or choosing materials?
That is the Law's punishment.
The lake of fire is the ultimate end for murderers and adulterers.
Jethro Bodine
Member
The promise is for believers. As long as one continues to believe they have eternal life and no one can pluck them out of the Father's hand and they shall never perish.
Consecrated Life
Member
Are you saying God Just put David's lawful punishment on hold for awhile & he " ultimately" did in fact get the "lake of fire" ?
Or he was allowed to continue in a life of sin with Bathsheba, free from worry about any Ultimate lawful lake of fire for his murder, and knowingly continuing in a life of adultery and sin with his murder victim's wife ?
Which is it ?